Does a magus/rogue apply sneak attack damage to a spellstrike attack while if the victem is denied dex / flanked?
I think it would but as the attack is part of the spell casting, I'm not entirely sure.
Any spell that does hit point damage AND makes an attack roll is subject to the rules for sneak attack. Thus, if you can make that roll while the victim is denied dexterity or flanked you apply your sneak attack damage.
- Gauss
the tricky part is the multiclass split of how much rogue to take for sneak bonuses
The thing is the spell from spell strike doesn't get a seperate attack roll. It seems like your trying to double up.
Basically a lvl 3 Magus lvl 3 rogue who casts chill touch and is hasted could get 3 attacks. (Free from chill touch + haste + normal) if all tThree hit he will only get one sneak per attack roll that hit. He doesn't get one per sword then one per chill top chouch.
If it worked the Way the open wants then I will take sap master with two levels of Magus and high level scrolls of merciful chill touch on every rogue I make.
Basically it is one sneak per hit not sneak then sneak for the spell.
Lets see...using mojorats example...
1st attack chill touch damage+weapon dam+ sa damage
2nd attack weapon dam +sa damage
3rd attack weapon damage+ sa damage
Looks right to me.
My thought was more along the lines of malanthropus' example ... that being said, gauss' post could possible imply that a ranged spell which requires a "to hit" roll such as scorching ray is subject to sneak damage when applicable. That's something I never realized.
Gourry, any spell that requires a to hit roll and rolls damage dice can have SA damage added to it (as long as the attack meets all the other requirements for SA.
Ranged touch sneak attack from hiding with an orb of acid from a wand....deliciousness! I am so glad those spells are gone.
My thought was more along the lines of malanthropus' example ... that being said, gauss' post could possible imply that a ranged spell which requires a "to hit" roll such as scorching ray is subject to sneak damage when applicable. That's something I never realized.
Yep! It's actually pretty much the corner stone of the Arcane Trickster, and it's also the reason why the rogue talent Minor Magic has a cap on uses per day.
Otherwise the rogues could just use Acid Splash all the time for sneak attack (assuming enemy was denied dex!)
You are correct...again teaching me not to post before coffee and throughly reading the spell.
Wait disregarding the haste part ... the spell combat/spell strike acts as the secondary attack ... no?
So the first weapon attack shouldn't have the spell effect. Both would have SA damage though.
Hey gourry, you should read this post by Grick. It's wonderfully illluminating, and I think some of your confusion is due to missing some parts of the very confusing and subtle interactions between spellstrike and spell combat.
Ahh apologies, I thought the OP was trying to justify double sneask attack. Though that said I have no idea how it would work with the arcane trickster capstone.
Though that said I have no idea how it would work with the arcane trickster capstone.
Surprise Spells just lets you get sneak attack on non-attack-roll spells, like Lightning Bolt. You can't combine those with spellstrike (or the normal touch spell rules) so there's no crossover.
If a magus/trickster cast a fireball as part of spell combat, it acts just like he cast it normally. If the target is flat-footed then he can get sneak attack.
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Hey gourry, you should read this post by Grick. It's wonderfully illluminating, and I think some of your confusion is due to missing some parts of the very confusing and subtle interactions between spellstrike and spell combat.
I checked out his post and I think I understand what he's saying ... that being said the confucion I'm finding now is that the description of spell combat says ...
"At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast."
I bolded the part I think is relevant. If the spell is defined as the offhand weapon, the spellstrike would also be the offhand. I could be mistaken but the offhand weapon comes after to the primary as far as I know (though I can't find anything to say so).
If thats is correct (and it may not be), then in the chill touch example, the first attack (primary) wouldn't have the spell damage on it but subsequent attacks would (as long as the spell is still in effect)as the spell has been cast in the offhand.
Ugh ... now I need to FAQ this.
The spell itself is similar to the off-hand weapon when TWFing. The attack granted by spellstrike is separate from the spell however, just like how the free touch attack from normal touch spells can be separate from the act of casting the spell.
And I'm pretty sure you can attack in whatever order you want. In fact, one of the most iconic examples, bashing someone with a shield and then stabbing them from the opening created, relies on attacking with the off-hand first.
In short, you can use spellcombat to cast a spell first and then attack if you want (including the attack from spellstrike). Or you can attack, and then cast the spell, and then use spellstrike to get another attack.
If the spell is defined as the offhand weapon, the spellstrike would also be the offhand.
Spellstrike has nothing to do with it.
The spell is the off hand attack. You can cast Mage Armor, or Fireball, or whatever. That's it.
If you cast a touch spell instead, you follow the rules for touch spells. You get to make a free touch attack as a free action any time during the turn you cast it. So while the spell itself was your offhand attack, the touch attack isn't.
I could be mistaken but the offhand weapon comes after to the primary as far as I know (though I can't find anything to say so).
Spell Combat specifically says "A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks."
Full Attack says "If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first."
What you're probably thinking of is also under Full Attack, where it says "If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest."
That only applies to multiple attacks granted by a high BAB. Iterative attacks.
If the spell is defined as the offhand weapon, the spellstrike would also be the offhand.Spellstrike has nothing to do with it.
The spell is the off hand attack. You can cast Mage Armor, or Fireball, or whatever. That's it.
If you cast a touch spell instead, you follow the rules for touch spells. You get to make a free touch attack as a free action any time during the turn you cast it. So while the spell itself was your offhand attack, the touch attack isn't.
I could be mistaken but the offhand weapon comes after to the primary as far as I know (though I can't find anything to say so).Spell Combat specifically says "A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks."
Full Attack says "If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first."
What you're probably thinking of is also under Full Attack, where it says "If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest."
That only applies to multiple attacks granted by a high BAB. Iterative attacks.
There it is ... that last sentence about casting the spell before or after clears it up. Thanks for the insight.
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This is the closest old group of posts I could find on my question.
when you sneak attack off of a spellstrike, what kind of damage is the sneak attack? do you get to chose between the multiple types you are doing?
the devs have stated several times that sneak attack is not a damage type and merely increases the existing damage type. Well if your doing slashing with a sword and then electricity with a shocking grasp that came out of the sword... which damage does the sneak attack augment?
Beats me. So I'd say pick one.
That's a really good question!!
Hmmm....
Until it's FAQed I'd say you get to pick.
Any time you have a choice, you choose.
I think they answered that in the old 3.5 FAQ with an example of an Arcane Trickster using Snow Storm (half bludgeoning, half cold) and the AT was able to pick cold, bludgeoning, or half and half.
Surprise Spells clearly says any spell that deals damage to a flat footed character, so a tough spell delivered through a free melee attack is applicable, spell combat penalties applicable. The melee attack, if the target lacks or is denied its Dex Bonus, qualifies for Sneak attack damage. Also consider Impromptu Sneak Attack: twice per day, it doesn't matter what immunities the target possesses; the Arcane Trickster can give themselves the capacity to attempt the roll with their bonuses, so even if they can't deliver the normal precision damage they can choose to deliver it through a spell. I think it's all rather fair.
I'd like to think that Surprise Spells would be better worded as the ability to choose to deliver sneak attack die as extra spell damage die instead, so long as the attack meets the requirements (so, feint, flank, invisible or greater with a magic weapon with Light Generation that cannot be concealed when drawn to draw threat, and/or be declared to meet through their Impromptu, and other sneaky moves) to deliver sneak attack damage.
Two sneak attack die per strike is a little too much. A knife master rogue delivers sneak attack die at d8's with knives. 7d8 is four shy of 10d6, and too easily abused if delivered twice per hit- it's certainly enough to keep pace at per-hit anyway, and is already there through crits. Rolling your sneak attack damage four times on a crit is ridiculous.