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Given the strict wording of the Free Archetype optional rule granting Class Feats, it would seem that there are about a half dozen or so Archetypes that just flat out cannot be supported by RAW which will leave levels where you have zero legal Feat selections since many, or in some cases, most of the related Archetype Feats are Skill Feats. Nothing in the optional rule seems to override the fact that you always need a General or Skill Feat resource to gain any Feat with that Trait.
Given that this is an optional rule that just plain doesn't work 1-to-1 with a bunch of other Archetypes that don't offer Feats at level 4, 6, 8, etc there is almost always going to be some given and take in what the GM allows but I wanted to survey the community to see how YOU are running this.
I had not noticed this. Since class feats are more powerful than general or skill feats (typically) I wouldn't hesitate to allow someone to make the choice to spend their bonus archetype feats on those.
However, I would like to float the idea that it might be better to ignore the two-feat lockout instead. The text of the Free Archetype section even recommends dropping the lockout in some cases (albeit for character concept reasons, not to avoid rules clashes)
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No bonus skill feats. However, I don’t limit the free archetype to just the one. I have a fighter who’s archetype focus is in ritual caster, but the archetype is not available until level 4. I didn’t want to tell the player he would be forced to lose out on a free choice at level 2 when the rest of the players wouldn’t. I also didn’t want anyone looking for a level 4 or 6 entry archetype to be dissuaded by missing out on up to two free feats. My answer was to remove the two additional feat requirement to access a new archetype. It hasn’t been an issue for balance, but it has added more flavor in character concepts.
Making them free, more eyes have looked to profession and faction archetypes to take. Few match the value of a class feat so taking away the sacrifice has opened up more desire to explore options. I haven’t looked back.
Which archetypes other than Sentinel don't work? That's the only one I know of off hand.
I’m also pretty sure that skill tag was a mistake and will be removed in future errata.
Can y'all point me to the source of the free archetype variant?
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Which archetypes other than Sentinel don't work? That's the only one I know of off hand.
Linguist has no non-skill 6th level Archetype Feat, Medic is in the same boat too, also the Sentinel as well. Pirate has no non-skill 4th level Archetype Feat, same thing with Scrounger.
It isn't the MOST common thing but there are even more examples beyond those as well. Again, since this optional rule is NEVER going to interface with organized play the question here, for me, is really less about what the RAW says or means because it's already squarely in the dead center of GM fiat territory and more about what specifically other GMs would do to accommodate PCs who choose these Archetypes that have "dead" levels where nothing is actually valid depending on what you chose at previous levels or how invested you already are into the Archetype.
That would make sense for Armor Specialist at least, but Steel Skin I can see staying a skill feat since it requires trained in Survival, which would leave one dead level.Which archetypes other than Sentinel don't work? That's the only one I know of off hand.I’m also pretty sure that skill tag was a mistake and will be removed in future errata.
I guess it’s for rogues or for anyone willing to wait on more level.
/shrug
Can y'all point me to the source of the free archetype variant?
That’s secret GM knowledge located in the best supplement book released as of yet...the Gamemastery Guide!
GMG pg.194
Free Archetype
Can y'all point me to the source of the free archetype variant?That’s secret GM knowledge located in the best supplement book released as of yet...the Gamemastery Guide!
GMG pg.194
Free Archetype
Thanks, I was looking at the achieves and couldn't find it for the life of me!
I mean, it's already a homebrew rule, just one advertised by paizo, so I don't think we'll really see any official ruling on it, since it really doesn't need one.
My take on it is basically a bonus feat on every level that can be used on an on-level archetype, or a half level class feat. Now that we have archetypes that offer feats that are 2 levels behind instead of half level, I'm actually considering altering the half level class feat to just be "the class feat must be below your level"
I haven't had it come up, but I don't think I'd disallow a character from taking a skill feat in their free archetype slot, since they are typically weaker than class feats.
Even level skill feats only make sense for rogues as getting skill feats at every level is their thing. And since it is a rogue thing, I don’t allow it as a free option at even levels for other classes. To do so seems like doubling up an already free benefit. For those archetype skill feats taken by non-rogues, they have to pay for them like normal (no free gain) and on a level they could acquire a skill feat. There are plenty of archetypes and corresponding feats to take with more coming, and since I don’t require the rule to take two additional feats before going into a new archetype, I think everyone does fine.
Interesting. For Dandy, Linguist, Medic and Pirate they all have a level 4 feat and a skill feat you can take, so even without modifications those can all be taken then just take another dedication at 6.
That’s a big part of why I love those dedications. So efficient. Pirate was off my radar though. Gotta check that one out again.
As for fudging it, if there's literally nothing they can take I'd personally let them grab another dedication, then need to meet the required two additional feats for each before they could take a third.
That’s how we’re running it in one of the games I’m in. It works really well. By the time you get the second dedication, even as early as 4th level, the feat options really open up for most dedications.
Personally, since most class feats that give skill feats give you two skill feats (or a skill feat + something else), I'm of the opinion that if your archetype gives skill feats (such as Dandy), you can use your free archetype feat to take two skill feats that the archetype provides.
But that's my opinion, YMMV.
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So consensus is that Archetype Skill feats CANNOT be taken with class feats(or free archetype feats) but with skill feats?! There's an argument on reddit about whether these ARE or are NOT archetype feats and which feats you can be used to take them, I'm calling them BOTH and will allow BOTH kinds of feats to be used because BOTH tags are there.
Even the whole thing on page 219 of the CRB doesn't say they are NOT it just gives cases of WHEN they WOULDN'T count! Again having both tags I'm going with both! So a level 8 character with the Dandy archetype CAN take Party Crasher if they didn't do so at seven using their skill feat.
"Occasionally, an archetype feat works like a skill feat instead of a class feat. These archetype feats have the skill trait, and you select them in place of a skill feat, otherwise following the same rules above. These are not archetype class feats (for instance, to determine the number of Hit Points you gain from the Fighter Resiliency archetype feat)."
Seems pretty clear to me.
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Must not be since this whole thread exists!
Also having the Trait: Archetype MAKES THEM archetype feats! If they NEVER were they would be like all other Skill feats and NOT have the tag!
First, a thread existing in no way is proof something isn't clear. It's quite possible someone understands it but is trying to justify it working otherwise as they like that way better.
#2, I don't recall saying they aren't archetype feats. "Occasionally, an archetype feat works like a skill feat instead of a class feat." Again, seems PRETTY CLEAR if you read everything related. They are Skill feats that require you have the archetype Dedication feat to take them.
But NOT with regular class feats? In this instance the two things are the SAME. So allowing the Free feat to be used but NOT the class feat makes not sense!
They are NOT the same: the free archetype feats are specifically lock so that you can only take them for archetype feats. "a free-archetype character is that the character receives an extra class feat at 2nd level and every even level thereafter that they can use only for archetype feats."
The issue you can run into is that you may have feats available but no class feats to take as there are only skill feats available for the archetype: as such, Raven Black would allow the taking of skill feats to help use those feats. IMO, it makes PREFECT sense that this wouldn't extent to normal class feats as those do NOT have limitations and would not potentially go to waste.
can is the important word here, does NOT say they HAVE to be.
Can is pretty moot when you take it in total. It SPECIFICALLY states "These are not archetype class feats" and "These archetype feats have the skill trait, and you select them in place of a skill feat". I don't see how the default is in question. At best you have proved that you can opt to not take the feat at all and instead can use that feat for something else since you aren't forced to take that archetype skill feat, as proven by the "can".
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Archetype feats with the skill trait can be selected in place of a skill feat if you have that archetype's dedication feat.can is the important word here, does NOT say they HAVE to be.
If it didn't say that you can take archetype skill feats when your class grants a skill feat, then you would be limited to only taking the regular skill feats available to all characters.
Granted, that would be horribly broken since there would be no way to get an archetype skill feat. But the language is clear.
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Oh, and to add to the pile, has anyone already mentioned Scroll Trickster with no level 4 archetype feats.
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Archetype Skill Feats
This is a list of archetype skill feats and a breakdown of the relevant skills. I made this to figure out which of these feats could be taken by Investigators using Skillfull Lessons.