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How does that work though, if you are adding the critical modifiers together rather than multiplying them. (base dmg) = x
i.e. Charge with a lance 2x
use spirited charge +3x totaling 5x
critical +3x totaling 8x
or at a very minimum following Bigs example. 1(base damage)+1(lance charge)+2(spirited charge)+2(critical)= x6
if it specifically "triples the damage" would this not add three to the damage modifier?
for a lance this is a great deal of damage, but is that not the idea and exactly how it is described, the idea of feats is that they help us be more nasty, this is one of the cavaliers only ways to deal mass damage if they get the opportunity to charge?
why would a critical only add +1 to the modifier? where in the rules is this listed or the math explained?
How does that work though, if you are adding the critical modifiers together rather than multiplying them. (base dmg) = x
i.e. Charge with a lance 2x
use spirited charge +3x totaling 5x
critical +3x totaling 8xif it specifically "triples the damage" would this not add three to the damage modifier?
for a lance this is a great deal of damage, but is that not the idea and exactly how it is described, the idea of feats is that they help us be more nasty, this is one of the cavaliers only ways to deal mass damage if they get the opportunity to charge?why would a critical only add +1 to the modifier? where in the rules is this listed or the math explained?
Page 12 of the CRB
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more thanone multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied
by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single
multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its
value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to
apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
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Page 12 of the CRB
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than
one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied
by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single
multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its
value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to
apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
so following Bigs example. 1(base damage)+1(lance charge)+2(spirited charge with lance(x3))+2(critical with lance (x3))= x6
this would be correct?
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so following Bigs example. 1(base damage)+1(lance charge)+2(spirited charge with lance(x3))+2(critical with lance (x3))= x6
this would be correct?
No.
Spirited charge substitute the bonus from the lanche charge, don't add to it.So:
1(base damage)+2(charge, using the spirited charge damage with a lancewith lance(x3))+2(critical with lance (x3))= x5
you are taking and adding base damage to all of your crits and on spirited charge plus the initial base damage, so you have base damage in there 3 times when it is only in the formula once.
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okay, I can see how spirited charge replaces the base doubling of a lance charge, it doesn't say specifically but the wording indicates. So 1(base damage)+2(spirited charge with lance(x3))+2(critical with lance (x3))= x5 makes sense.
i.e normal lance charge = x2
crit on a lance charge x4
lance charge with spirited charge x3
crit on a lance charge with spirited charge x5
Sorry to be so obtuse about this but it doesn't exactly spell it out clearly and going from thinking this should do a x8 down to a x5 feels like a let down, but it makes sense now so thank you all for your help.
For every multiplier after the first, subtract one from the multiplier given, and add that to the first multiplier.
So, Spirited charge (x3) plus lance critical (3 -1 = 2) = x5
Normal charge (x2) plus lance critical (3 - 1 = 2) = x4
All the usual caveats about bonus dice not being multiplied continue to apply, so someone who's packing Greater Vital Strike and Spirited Charge using a medium Lance (assuming no other bonuses from Str or magic weapons) who manages a critical is dealing
3d8 (Spirited Charge) plus 2d8 (lance critical) plus 3d8 (Greater Vital Strike) = 8d8 damage.
It would be easier to understand if criticals were dealt with by adding damage dice, rather than multiplying them. The 4E notation could be bastardised for this purpose, using a notation of [W] to represent the dice type for the weapon, and [D] to represent [W]+Modifiers, in which case a lance would add [D] on a charge, 2[D] on a critical and Spirited Charge added 2[D] to a lance charge, while Greater Vital Strike adds 3[W] to the damage dealt.
But that's just me trying to think of improvements for clarity's sake.
okay, I can see how spirited charge replaces the base doubling of a lance charge, it doesn't say specifically but the wording indicates. So 1(base damage)+2(spirited charge with lance(x3))+2(critical with lance (x3))= x5 makes sense.
i.e normal lance charge = x2
crit on a lance charge x4
lance charge with spirited charge x3
crit on a lance charge with spirited charge x5Sorry to be so obtuse about this but it doesn't exactly spell it out clearly and going from thinking this should do a x8 down to a x5 feels like a let down, but it makes sense now so thank you all for your help.
I can assure you, x5 damage is NEVER a letdown. A level 20 Paladin or Cavalier will show you exactly that, if you let them.
A bit of a tangent ... is it worth it for a mounted paladin to take a level of sorcerer for true strike?No. Just have someone cast it on you or buy a wand...your CHA should be pretty decent already and getting a trait to make UMD a class skill is nothing.
Remember that True Strike is a personal-range spell, so your friends can't cast it on you, either normally or from a wand.
But UMD to use a wand of True Strike on yourself would work.
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A bit of a tangent ... is it worth it for a mounted paladin to take a level of sorcerer for true strike?No. Just have someone cast it on you or buy a wand...your CHA should be pretty decent already and getting a trait to make UMD a class skill is nothing.Remember that True Strike is a personal-range spell, so your friends can't cast it on you, either normally or from a wand.
But UMD to use a wand of True Strike on yourself would work.
Yea I was working from memory and I never take that spell. Just wanted to make sure he knew taking 1 level of Sorceror was just all around not worth it.
A bit of a tangent ... is it worth it for a mounted paladin to take a level of sorcerer for true strike?
Not really. If you're charging around, you're only really missing on 1s anyway at higher levels and the loss of BAB at lower levels, as well as associated other net losses in abilities, is rather punishing. To be fair, though, the Cavalier is a much better charger.
True strike can be a potion, as well.
The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
The rules are pretty clearly set up to prevent spells with range = personal from being applied to another person. The only way to get around this is with a high UMD check, hince why UMD is usually considered the 2nd best skill in the game, after Perception.