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Anyone not bother with metamagic feats?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Elibdis Killstrokian wrote:
Hmmmmmm....I'm trying to level up an Arcane Scorcerer right now. Anyone use Empower or Maximize? I thought they sounded pretty cool. Of course I'm definitley going to get Extend and Quicken.

If you don't have magical lineage or Wayang Spellhunter then Empower and Maximize aren't with it at lower levels. Some good Low level metamagic feats are topple spell, silent, and Still.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Black_Lantern wrote:
Elibdis Killstrokian wrote:
Hmmmmmm....I'm trying to level up an Arcane Scorcerer right now. Anyone use Empower or Maximize? I thought they sounded pretty cool. Of course I'm definitley going to get Extend and Quicken.
If you don't have magical lineage or Wayang Spellhunter then Empower and Maximize aren't with it at lower levels. Some good Low level metamagic feats are topple spell, silent, and Still.

Yeah, empower doesn't really become fully useful until 8th level for sorcerers, and maximize until 10th (and even that's questionable - I'd wait until 11th or 13th level to take it as a sorcerer.)

Still spell might be your best bet - I get grappled a lot more often than I get silenced - and at +1 level it's pretty versatile for a sorcerer.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Rods aren't exactly great weapons hand to hand (no duh). They only function as maybe a Masterwork version of what you just depicted, and that's being generous.

There are other worthwhile Metas that increase slots by 2 or more, and a Wizard isn't like a Sorcerer in that they can just blow their Spell Points/Slots and not have to worry about future encounters due to their extended spell allotments per day.

What are gish builds again? I don't see how that counters my point in that Rods are limited to usage per day, that their charges (sometimes, not sure about this) cannot be refreshed once expended, and that the Rods are limited in selection. You know of a Rod of Intensify Spell? I sure don't, and that's one of the greater end-game Metas.

As to what I meant; as far as I recall, Rods only allow the caster to utilize the content of what's placed into the Rod. If the Rod is a Metamagic Rod, it only allows the bearer to utilize the Metas as they are normally utilized; this includes their spell slot increase for casting it on an elevated level, the required level of spells to cast it, etc. So what's the point of a Rod if all it does is just allow you to use a Feat a certain number of times per day?

pfsrd20 wrote:
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell.

"Gish" is a melee caster, the only one's who'd actually care about how rods worked as weapons. The point of them being like clubs or light maces is that they're one-handed not two.


Black_Lantern wrote:
Elibdis Killstrokian wrote:
Hmmmmmm....I'm trying to level up an Arcane Scorcerer right now. Anyone use Empower or Maximize? I thought they sounded pretty cool. Of course I'm definitley going to get Extend and Quicken.
If you don't have magical lineage or Wayang Spellhunter then Empower and Maximize aren't with it at lower levels. Some good Low level metamagic feats are topple spell, silent, and Still.

Are they really worth it just for one spell? I guess one spell now and an investment for later?


Now all we need is a rod of lordly might...and metamagic.
The middle has buttons to pick the weapon, the pommel of it has buttons like on those pens with multiple colors to pick the metamagic feats :P


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I think spellcasters should all have metamagic feats without a feat cost. The cost is the spell level increase.

And this is why I always choose to play Wizards over Sorcerers. Wizards get metamagic feats or item creation feats for free. :)

Shadow Lodge

Darksol the painbringer wrote:
Rods aren't exactly great weapons hand to hand (no duh). They only function as maybe a Masterwork version of what you just depicted, and that's being generous.

... and why is that a problem for a caster?

Quote:
There are other worthwhile Metas that increase slots by 2 or more, and a Wizard isn't like a Sorcerer in that they can just blow their Spell Points/Slots and not have to worry about future encounters due to their extended spell allotments per day.

Specialist wizards wind up with more high level spells per day than sorcerer.

Quote:
? I don't see how that counters my point in that Rods are limited to usage per day

Do you usually use more than three of a particular metamagic feat in a day?

Quote:
that their charges (sometimes, not sure about this) cannot be refreshed once expended

They come back every day.

Quote:
and that the Rods are limited in selection. You know of a Rod of Intensify Spell? I sure don't, and that's one of the greater end-game Metas.

APG

Quote:
As to what I meant; as far as I recall, Rods only allow the caster to utilize the content of what's placed into the Rod. If the Rod is a Metamagic Rod, it only allows the bearer to utilize the Metas as they are normally utilized

Nope. And this is why rods are better than having the feat yourself.

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell.

for the low low price of 3k, i can extend a greater magic fang and a longstrider into spells that last all day WITHOUT increasing the spell slot.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Darksol the painbringer wrote:
Rods aren't exactly great weapons hand to hand (no duh). They only function as maybe a Masterwork version of what you just depicted, and that's being generous.

... and why is that a problem for a caster?

Quote:
There are other worthwhile Metas that increase slots by 2 or more, and a Wizard isn't like a Sorcerer in that they can just blow their Spell Points/Slots and not have to worry about future encounters due to their extended spell allotments per day.

Specialist wizards wind up with more high level spells per day than sorcerer.

Quote:
? I don't see how that counters my point in that Rods are limited to usage per day

Do you usually use more than three of a particular metamagic feat in a day?

Quote:
that their charges (sometimes, not sure about this) cannot be refreshed once expended

They come back every day.

Quote:
and that the Rods are limited in selection. You know of a Rod of Intensify Spell? I sure don't, and that's one of the greater end-game Metas.

APG

Quote:
As to what I meant; as far as I recall, Rods only allow the caster to utilize the content of what's placed into the Rod. If the Rod is a Metamagic Rod, it only allows the bearer to utilize the Metas as they are normally utilized

Nope. And this is why rods are better than having the feat yourself.

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell.

for the low low price of 3k, i can extend a greater magic fang and a longstrider into spells that last all day WITHOUT increasing the spell slot.

It's a problem if a Caster is more imposed to using a Bow, and for the lower levels, this is a nice thing to have for ranged utility when you're out of spell slots/points.

Toward the end-game, where things are a lot more difficult and defensive against your spells with high DR, SR, etc., plus have more HP than what you can conquer in three rounds of spells? Yeah, I think having only 3 Metamagic level spells is pretty useless.

I thought that only some Rods or charges on a Rod were limited to uses per day. I'm sure something like a Rod of Cancellation is only usable once, and that's it. Once it's used, it's just as useless and valuable as maybe a masterwork club or mace.

Ironically, I am arguing this because the Evoker of our group has a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, but has no use for it because he does more with his Sword and Bow than he can do with his Rod. Which makes sense, since being an Evil party, there are no buffs at all to be received or cast. Buffs are only for Goody Goody two shoes; Evil doesn't buff.

The only use I can see from the stupid Rod is to use it on Mage Armor and Shield, at best; and even then, Shield requires combat usage which by then he's got his Sword or Bow out, and using Mage Armor for times where we probably won't even be in combat is a waste of Spell Points/Slots.

**EDIT**

Another benefit to having the Feats is that you can combine them into one Spell, whereas a Rod you can only have one Metamagic (or two to Dual Wield, if you want to get technical) at a time. I mean, I could cast a 9th level Empowered Maximized Intensified Fireball for the slot/points, or I can just limit it to a weakling 90 points of damage, whereas I could've easily gotten 135 for the extra 1 slot that it normally would've cost me.


thejeff wrote:
Black_Lantern wrote:
Elibdis Killstrokian wrote:
Hmmmmmm....I'm trying to level up an Arcane Scorcerer right now. Anyone use Empower or Maximize? I thought they sounded pretty cool. Of course I'm definitley going to get Extend and Quicken.
If you don't have magical lineage or Wayang Spellhunter then Empower and Maximize aren't with it at lower levels. Some good Low level metamagic feats are topple spell, silent, and Still.
Are they really worth it just for one spell? I guess one spell now and an investment for later?

wayang spellhunter

magical lineage
empower
orc bloodline
Varisian Tattoo(evocation)
lvl 6 sorcerer

empowered fireball
10d6+10

Idk you tell me.


Black_Lantern wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Black_Lantern wrote:
Elibdis Killstrokian wrote:
Hmmmmmm....I'm trying to level up an Arcane Scorcerer right now. Anyone use Empower or Maximize? I thought they sounded pretty cool. Of course I'm definitley going to get Extend and Quicken.
If you don't have magical lineage or Wayang Spellhunter then Empower and Maximize aren't with it at lower levels. Some good Low level metamagic feats are topple spell, silent, and Still.
Are they really worth it just for one spell? I guess one spell now and an investment for later?

wayang spellhunter

magical lineage
empower
orc bloodline
Varisian Tattoo(evocation)
lvl 6 sorcerer

empowered fireball
10d6+10

Idk you tell me.

Both traits, 3 feats (since you need spell focus) and you've got a neat trick at 6th level. It makes a blaster caster almost effective, when you've got the multiple targets to use it on without your party getting in the way.

Shadow Lodge

Darksol the pain bringer wrote:

It's a problem if a Caster is more imposed to using a Bow, and for the lower levels, this is a nice thing to have for ranged utility when you're out of spell slots/points.

That's what your 3+ int mod per day abilities are for.

There's no reason you can't take a move action to draw your bow if you have your rod out or vice versa. If you really need to switch them out that often, get weapon cords.

Quote:
Toward the end-game, where things are a lot more difficult and defensive against your spells with high DR, SR, etc., plus have more HP than what you can conquer in three rounds of spells? Yeah, I think having only 3 Metamagic level spells is pretty useless.

At that level 1) You can afford multiple rods and 2) you don't do hit point damage anymore you use Save or Die or save or suck spells.

Quote:
I thought that only some Rods or charges on a Rod were limited to uses per day. I'm sure something like a Rod of Cancellation is only usable once, and that's it. Once it's used, it's just as useless and valuable as maybe a masterwork club or mace.

The rod of cancelation is an exception, not the rule, and not a metamagic rod.

Quote:
Ironically, I am arguing this because the Evoker of our group has a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, but has no use for it because he does more with his Sword and Bow than he can do with his Rod. Which makes sense, since being an Evil party, there are no buffs at all to be received or cast. Buffs are only for Goody Goody two shoes; Evil doesn't buff.

He'd probably be better off with empower. If he's using a sword and bow something has gone seriously wrong. Extend is really only useful for buffs, so if he's not buffing the item isn't being used well because of an unusual party dynamic, not because of a problem with the rods.

Try to reevaluate your position now that you know how the rods work: they don't occupy two hands, and they don't use up a higher level spellslot.

Quote:
The only use I can see from the stupid Rod is to use it on Mage Armor and Shield, at best; and even then, Shield requires combat usage which by then he's got his Sword or Bow out, and using Mage Armor for times where we probably won't even be in combat is a waste of Spell Points/Slots.

The extend rod is great for mage armor because it makes mage armor last all day: so its freeing up a first level spell slot that he would otherwise have to use for mage armor.

**EDIT**

Quote:
Another benefit to having the Feats is that you can combine them into one Spell, whereas a Rod you can only have one Metamagic (or two to Dual Wield, if you want to get technical) at a time.

You can only use one metamagic rod at once. The problem with using multiple metamagic feats is that they both independently raise the spell level, so a maximized empowered fireball is an 8th level spell... with the save DC of a third level spell. There's usually a better spell you can memorize instead of the spell with a higher level.

Quote:
I mean, I could cast a 9th level Empowered Maximized Intensified Fireball for the slot/points, or I can just limit it to a weakling 90 points of damage, whereas I could've easily gotten 135 for the extra 1 slot that it normally would've cost me.

Or you can save yourself three feats and just cast meteor swarm, or better yet, Energy drain or wail of the banshee.


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metamagic is alright for a spontaneous caster making the spells you do have more flexible, even for a cleric a spontaneous quicken or reach cure spell can be decent once in a while.

They tend to be a bit less powerful than an actual spellslot of that level, though some feats that build upon metamagic feats make them worthwhile.

Metamagic rods are too damn good by any stretch, everybody agrees that casters are better and metamagic rods dont help, I ban them by default.


Metamagic Rods - Are awesome, metamagic extend is probably the best 3k you can expend as any spellcaster (especially rangers, paladins, etc). All the rest are great also, nice to have when the moment arrives when you really need them, but didn't want to take the feat.

Metamagic Feats - I have always seen the feats as an option the original designers intended primarily for spontaneous casters to get a little more bang from their limited spells known. That said, I really feel that quicken for high level casters should always receive serious consideration.

When I play wizards I certainly have difficulty filling my feat slots, I am certain it's just me, but I can't ever seem to buy into the metamagic feats, excpt quicken, either. The rods are sufficent. I rarely if ever play sorcerers (I hate the retarded prgression to the next higher spell level)but the few times I have the metamagic feats worked well.

just my thoughts

Shadow Lodge

I want to like the Metamagic Feat that switches th elemental type damage, but as a Divine Caster, there just are not enough spells to really to make it worth it. It would be amazing if there where a similar option that worked for Positive and/or Negative Energy, added to certain spells like Spiritual Weapon, or really boosted Positive/Negative Energy.

As is, Metamagic can be really good for Srcerers, and only really ok for Wizards because they are free. In my experience though, anything highr than +1 Spell Level just isn't worth it on an average adventuring day without either preknowledge or the ability to use it on the spot somehow, not prepairing a spell that way at the start of the day. Obviously there are some exceptions, primarily Extend, Empower, and Quicken. Really needs to be based on the effect it has for the spell rather than a general "this Metamagic Feats uses up a spell level this muh higher no matter what".


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

AS the GM for my group I have seen a number of players become pretty excited about the meta-magic feats at first; then as time has gone by they find them less useful (except the quickened feats which a couple of PCs have utilized to great effect.)


The meta magic feats should provide casters with flexibility but as of the moment they do not deliver. Everybody loves metamagic rods as a player but that is something that really needs to be taken down a few notches imo.

I'd like to see something like burning additional slots to power metamagic up to a limit, the thing most annoying about metamagic rod is their price which is far too cheap and that they are capable of supercharging spells instead of providing flexibility.

Shadow Lodge

The problem with the pricing for Metamagic Rods is that they are only too cheap for some classes. A Rod of Maximize is good for a Wizard/Sorcerer at that price, but not for a Cleric/Oracle really, just because there are much less uses for it. Increasing the cost will make them even less useful for most other classes, and probably still not touch the Wizard/Sorcerer really, who do not need as much money for other gear. Just keep them from getting them as early.

The only real way I can see Metamagic Rods being more balanced would be to either make them 1/day or have an arbitrary rule that a caster can only use 1 Rod in a given day, or maybe since Rods have 3/Day uses, any combination of Metamagic Rods 3/day only. Still screws all the nonflashy casters, though.


For clerics, Extend for low-level buffs, or Quicken for high-level melee types. For ALL clerics, Reach spell for spontaneous ranged healing, especially by 11th level. Close range Breath of Life will make you glad you took the feat (or at least SOMEONE will be glad you took the feat).


"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

The problem with the pricing for Metamagic Rods is that they are only too cheap for some classes. A Rod of Maximize is good for a Wizard/Sorcerer at that price, but not for a Cleric/Oracle really, just because there are much less uses for it. Increasing the cost will make them even less useful for most other classes, and probably still not touch the Wizard/Sorcerer really, who do not need as much money for other gear. Just keep them from getting them as early.

The only real way I can see Metamagic Rods being more balanced would be to either make them 1/day or have an arbitrary rule that a caster can only use 1 Rod in a given day, or maybe since Rods have 3/Day uses, any combination of Metamagic Rods 3/day only. Still screws all the nonflashy casters, though.

I don's see metamagic rods as unbalanced in any way.


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I have played a Wizard from 1st all the way to 20th, and I have found the metamagic feats quite useful. Especially since I got them as bonus feats.

Extend Spell is the first one I get always. I will be using it long before I can afford the 3,000gp. Mage Armor, Invisibility, Fly and Rope Trick are the main uses. I know in advance that I will need these extended, so that makes it easier.

Still Spell is good when you are locked down, but I usually just try to keep a Dimension Door or two (no semantic component) ready for escapes. That said a Stilled Dispel Magic can save your life if you are magically held. Not so good in a rod as, if you can't use semantic components, you probably won't be able to draw a rod either.

Silent Spell I always get in a rod. If you are never silenced, then you have wasted a spell level. If you do get silenced, draw the wand and use a silent Dispel Magic to dispel the Silence.

Empower I used at higher levels. An Empowered Chained Lightning does 30d6 at 20th level for an 8th level spell. Which is pretty close to a targeted Meteor Swarm, which can do up to 32d6 to one targeted opponent. A Delayed Blast Fireball does 30d6 in a radius for a 9th level slot compared to Meteor Swarm's 24d6. This is a blasting feat, which was a secondary thing for me, but after buffing and battlefield control, it was nice to lob some serious damage downrange.

Maximize I never bothered with, it just seemed too expensive slot-wise. I didn't even buy a rod, but I did use a lower level one that I found.

Quicken is another high level metamagic. I picked it up after Empower. Casting a Quickened Mage Armor, Shield, Expeditious Retreat aren't worth spending an action on, but it is worth a swift action using a higher slot that you probably wouldn't get around to using anyway. This is a good one to get in a rod if you can afford it though.

Edit: Oh yeah. Empower is pretty good at mid levels too. Consider if you are 10th level. You can cast a Cone of Cold that does 10d6, or you can cast an Empowered Fireball that does 15d6 (although the save DC will be 2 lower).


I've had good experiences using metamagic as a spontaneous caster. It's less exciting for a prepared caster, except as a gimmick (e.g. the Theologian cleric archetype).

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

I have found both Extend Spell (from Core) and Ectoplasmic Spell (from APG) to be extremely useful.
But then, I prefer the Universalist Wizard, so these can be applied pretty much as needed - And Ectoplasmic has been needed.

Lord Twig's idea for Still Dimension Door is brilliant. I will pick up that Feat at my next opportunity.

Shadow Lodge

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walter mcwilliams wrote:
I don's see metamagic rods as unbalanced in any way.

Nor do I, personally, but I see it complained about enough to recognize it as a problem for enough people to give it some credit. The issue isn't the rods themselves as much as it is getting a Feat for a cheap price, and for Wizards and prepaired casters, it sort of allows them the strength of the Sorcerer in that they can essentualy spontaniously apply it. It also do not use up higher level spells like the Feats, so is basically better than the Feat in a lot of ways, and mostly bypasses the need for the Feat itself.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Lord Twig wrote:
Silent Spell I always get in a rod. If you are never silenced, then you have wasted a spell level. If you do get silenced, draw the wand and use a silent Dispel Magic to dispel the Silence.

Or just use the silent rod to cast whatever you were going to. Dispel Magic is iffy at best, and uses up your action.

I do love Silent Spell, though, especially on spontaneous casters. Really helps in social situations, when I don't want anyone to hear me cast a spell (comes up surprisingly often for me). It also helps for those spells that only have a verbal component, meaning very little can stand in the way of me casting them. My sorcerer has never been in a silence spell, and yet I'm still entirely grateful I took that feat.

Keep in mind, this is a game where we can't craft or buy whatever magic items we want (something all the players are fine with, incidentally).

So, yeah, probably not very useful in most games, but it's been amazing for at least one of my characters! :)


Lord Fyre wrote:


Lord Twig's idea for Still Dimension Door is brilliant. I will pick up that Feat at my next opportunity.

You don't need Still Dimension Door. It's a Verbal only spell. That's the whole point.


I'd say there are some metamagics that are worth feats, but not level adjustments: still and silent most notably. I think eschew materials used to be a metamagic feat with a level adjustment and isn't anymore. Still Spell is especially bad since the most common case for somatic components being prevented includes a concentration check against CMD even for still spells.

Some should probably be basic things any caster can do, but require higher slots. Intensify and most of the core metamagic feats other than still and silent are candidates for this.

Some, like persistent and dazing should probably continue to require both feats and level adjustments. They're not conceptually simple so they merit feats and they're actually add meaningful power so they're worth level adjustments.

Shadow Lodge

Yah, in 3.0 Eschew Materials was a Metamagc Feat but they changed it because it was a really good option to qualify for other thing that just said "any one Metamagic Feat" and also people believed overwelmingly that spontanious Metamagic meant that a standard action spell went off next round rather than being a full round action to cast.

Non-PF 3E had some really good Metamagic Feats, like ones that turned spells into half "divine" damage like Flame Strike, Persistent Spell (only one worth the high level adjustments) and Thematic Spell which took sometimes purely for flavor. Ectoplasmic Spell was much better in <Non-PF> 3E because of the way that incorporeal worked then. PF changed that subtly, making it less important for nondamaging spells, and honestly I play divine casters, who already mostly affect incorporeal (undead) easily and automatically.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Still is good for a cleric who might want to use a sword and heavy shield. Quicken is also great for anyone wanting to pop off some buffs and still engage the enemy.

Shadow Lodge

Yah, Eschew Materials is honestly a good Feat for any casters, almost to the point that it should probably just be a free Feat all around to main casters except the Wizard. I have always though it wierd that most divine spells would have components (outside holy symbol or holly) in 3E anyway.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
-snip-

The guy is an Evoker; his 3 + abilities per day allows him to transmute the Spell Damage type into a different type to overcome DR/Resistances. While a nice trick, it is only functional with actual spells, which requires spell points/slots to utilize.

The guy still needs to put away his Rod to use the Bow, which requires using up his Standard Action (then again, a Quickdraw feat would most likely resolve this issue, though also removing the concept of using a Quicken Spell as a result).

Most everything by that level has immunity or crazy saves/SR against those types of spells, meaning you'll have to resort to dealing damage, which could take forever.

The problem is that Evil characters in general do not buff. We are 5th level, and the only buffs we get are Bless from our Battle Cleric, and that's being generous. Seriously? 5th level, and the best (and only) buff we get is a measly Bless. Our 8th level Good characters were buffing left and right, using Shield of Faith and Protection from Energy and Stoneskin and Haste, and even more spells that would take too long to mention. But by this point, we didn't even have any Rods (then again, three of us were clerics, and we had a Summoner), and the only character in that group who would use a Rod is the Summoner (which would be great for Haste to last 16 rounds at that level..).

Yes, the Rods don't use up higher spell slots, but for a Wizard, what buffs is he going to give other than Mage Armor and maybe Shield? (Heck, not even Shield when they could very well have an actual Shield with the Rod.) All I really notice from them for spell lists are Damage Spells, and Utility spells. The only Buffs are Shield and Mage Armor, and Haste when they get to it, but that is only a single target, where they'll be in the back and only affect themselves, which doesn't help with anything except movement and Dodge AC (like they'll be getting hit?). It's not like they really need anything else, but from a Buffs perspective, a Cleric would make better use of an Extend Rod, and they would rather use actual weapons than the Rods themselves.

Meteor Swarm is probably better, but also more volatile in area and targets affected, making it harder for placing and affecting targets. Most everything by endgame is immune or has crazy saves or SR versus those kinds of spells, and they wouldn't be much use except against other players, to be completely honest with you.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The problem is that Evil characters in general do not buff.

Since when does evil mean dumb? I'm DMing an "evil" campaing and I never DMed a game where the PCs were as much buff-focused. In the first round of almost every battles, the Bard Inspire Courage, the Summoner casts Haste and the cleric casts Prayer (Prayer stacks with Inspire Courage). This is a brutal and very effective combo. In the subsequent rounds, if needed, the bard casts sonic weapon (a 3.5 spell) on the BSF or himself and the cleric will casts any typical cleric buffing spell (Bull's Strength, Shield of Faith, Magic Weapon, etc.) on himself.


Maerimydra wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The problem is that Evil characters in general do not buff.
Since when does evil mean dumb? I'm DMing an "evil" campaing and I never DMed a game where the PCs were as much buff-focused. In the first round of almost every battles, the Bard Inspire Courage, the Summoner casts Haste and the cleric casts Prayer (Prayer stacks with Inspire Courage). This is a brutal and very effective combo. In the subsequent rounds, if needed, the bard casts sonic weapon (a 3.5 spell) on the BSF or himself and the cleric will casts any typical cleric buffing spell (Bull's Strength, Shield of Faith, Magic Weapon, etc.) on himself.

We don't have a Bard for Buffs, nor a Summoner (DM removed this as an optional class because it is time consuming and requires nerfing, which takes more time for leveling up and such, and that is time consuming as it is with a group of 6 people). We have a Cleric, but he's too insistent on being a Fighter type (that is, Battle Cleric) to bother buffing anyone else other than with Area spells. The only one we ever get is Bless, and we hardly get that one because the guy wants to be up in front swinging away. Our Good Campaign had 2 Clerics, an Oracle (me), and a Summoner, as well as a Cavalier and a Rogue. We would buff constantly, and would be hard to kill as we have a bunch of healing spells.

I make the statement in general; not buffing is dumb, yes. But when the characters do not have buffs to spend, it's not so much a dumb thing when it's not even feasible to begin with. Most Evil characters/creatures don't have buffs, as they are more along the lines of Debuffs. The Witch and Evil Clerics are prime examples that Evil focuses more on Debuffing and Damage than they do on Buffing and Healing. This is the same reason why I really want the Crane Style Feat (though it isn't exactly feasible because I'm using a 2-hander).


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I doubt that's really so much a Good/Evil thing as much as which classes/builds people chose to play. I suppose you may be playing characters without good buffing options partly because you're playing evil, but there's no direct link. I've seen Good groups with Evokers and Battle Clerics and Witches aren't always evil.

An Evoker is usually focused on direct damage, which means Extend isn't the best choice for him. There's other Metamagic that can boost damage that might be better. More expensive though. In the long run, Quicken is good for anyone.

The Cleric might get some use out of Extend. Get some of the self buffs to last more than one fight.

Shadow Lodge

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


The guy is an Evoker; his 3 + abilities per day allows him to transmute the Spell Damage type into a different type to overcome DR/Resistances. While a nice trick, it is only functional with actual spells, which requires spell points/slots to utilize.

Force Missile (Sp): As a standard action you can unleash a force missile that automatically strikes a foe, as magic missile. The force missile deals 1d4 points of damage plus the damage from your intense spells evocation power. This is a force effect. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Quote:
The guy still needs to put away his Rod to use the Bow, which requires using up his Standard Action (then again, a Quickdraw feat would most likely resolve this issue, though also removing the concept of using a Quicken Spell as a result).

First, if your wizard has to use a bow at high levels he's doing it wrong. Yeah, it happens to low level wizards but should not be happening to higher level ones.

Secondly, you can carry the bow in one hand, and draw the rod with your other hand to cast. Again, a rod only occupies ONE hand.

Quote:
Most everything by that level has immunity or crazy saves/SR against those types of spells, meaning you'll have to resort to dealing damage, which could take forever.

If he's an elf he's got ways of overcomming sr.

If he's not an elf he should have gotten spell penetration instead of wasting feats on using a bow.

Quote:
The problem is that Evil characters in general do not buff.

This is a problem for the extend spell feat: It does not in any way shape or form effect the rod vs. feat problems.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


The guy is an Evoker; his 3 + abilities per day allows him to transmute the Spell Damage type into a different type to overcome DR/Resistances. While a nice trick, it is only functional with actual spells, which requires spell points/slots to utilize.

Force Missile (Sp): As a standard action you can unleash a force missile that automatically strikes a foe, as magic missile. The force missile deals 1d4 points of damage plus the damage from your intense spells evocation power. This is a force effect. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Quote:
The guy still needs to put away his Rod to use the Bow, which requires using up his Standard Action (then again, a Quickdraw feat would most likely resolve this issue, though also removing the concept of using a Quicken Spell as a result).

First, if your wizard has to use a bow at high levels he's doing it wrong. Yeah, it happens to low level wizards but should not be happening to higher level ones.

Secondly, you can carry the bow in one hand, and draw the rod with your other hand to cast. Again, a rod only occupies ONE hand.

Quote:
Most everything by that level has immunity or crazy saves/SR against those types of spells, meaning you'll have to resort to dealing damage, which could take forever.

If he's an elf he's got ways of overcomming sr.

If he's not an elf he should have gotten spell penetration instead of wasting feats on using a bow.

Quote:
The problem is that Evil characters in general do not buff.

This is a problem for the extend spell feat: It does not in any way shape or form effect the rod vs. feat problems.

You sure that's right? I suppose I should watch my wording, since it seems like Evoker is an actual archetype. He's a Wizard with the Evocation School specialization.

There was a function he has that works as changing the elemental damage of a spell into another, and has the same restrictions and rules as any other feature. The thing is, it requires him to use spell slots/points for him to utilize it. It's nice for overcoming DR/Resists, but that's about it.

Honestly? I doubt he'll be using it at high levels. He's using a bow right now, and we're a 5th level party group. Hardly anything towards high levels. Moderate levels, maybe, and that's being generous.

That's actually very important, and something that I'll bring up to the group right away. It'll be imperative for future sessions, so the Wizard can actually utilize that Rod in the middle of combat, since drawing a weapon can be combined with actual movement (IDK if this is houseruling or not, but it is how we have done it for quite some time now).

He is an Elf Wizard, so he has an additional +2, as well as another +2 for the Spell Pen feat, as well as a +1 from a custom Character Trait, plus his CL of 5, making him have a +10 to overcome SR, so SR isn't much of a problem to him at this level. And he is using a Longbow as his race allows him automatic proficiency with it, so he didn't waste any feat on it or anything.

Yeah, you're right. Rods are useful. Some might prefer to use actual weapons, such as the Magus, or multi-class characters, and the feats should help them in that regard.


How about an alternate rule or feat that allows you to apply metamagic effects without increasing the spell level by using other spell slots or prepared spells that lets you use the spell level to pay for the level increase?

So for example, want to maximize a fireball at level 5? then waste 2 slots of fireball (1 for casting, and 1 to pay the cost of the +3 maximize feat). A maximized fireball at level 5 would deal 30 damage without counting energy resistance, evasion and saves.

With this feature or feat, you could apply metamagic to a spell early on, but you couldn't do it for extended fights anyways, since you are burning spells slots like crazy.

Also, you cannot apply combinations of metamagic that would increase the spell level beyond 9th (as using the standard method), and can sacrifice multiple spells to reduce the cost further (but not lower than 0).

So in keeping with the example above you could sacrifice 3 1st level spells, or two 1st level spells and a 2nd level spell, or a 3rd level spell.

Shadow Lodge

That might work, but honestly, one of the big barriers to Metamagic Feats is that they have a built in double cost, you have to take a Feat, AND then you have to use up a resource to use the Feat, when not much else in the game works that way. In my experience, casters tend to only have a few spells modified anyway, so I really like the idea of taking the Feat and then getting a number of uses per day without any increased spell levels. I've even played a few times where I house ruled that every 5 levels after gaining the Feat in question, you get an additional 1/day use for it, o it both matter when you take the Feat and does slowly increase in usefulness, but at the same time almost always tends to be the same spells modified.There was an arbitraiey cap, so you couldn'y modify te highest level spells just like with the way the Metamagic Feats normally work, and also you couldn't take them earlier than you normally could, but I much prefered that system.

It made them much more useful for Clerics and Druids over all, didn't affect Sorcerers, and tended (at higher levels) to rduce the amount of modified spells Wizards had, and tended not to really use at the right times, wasting an Empowered Fireball when a normal Fireball was all they really wanted, but didn't have it prepped.

Shadow Lodge

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The problem is that Evil characters in general do not buff.

You are playing with the wrong Evil characters.


"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

That might work, but honestly, one of the big barriers to Metamagic Feats is that they have a built in double cost, you have to take a Feat, AND then you have to use up a resource to use the Feat, when not much else in the game works that way. In my experience, casters tend to only have a few spells modified anyway, so I really like the idea of taking the Feat and then getting a number of uses per day without any increased spell levels. I've even played a few times where I house ruled that every 5 levels after gaining the Feat in question, you get an additional 1/day use for it, o it both matter when you take the Feat and does slowly increase in usefulness, but at the same time almost always tends to be the same spells modified.There was an arbitraiey cap, so you couldn'y modify te highest level spells just like with the way the Metamagic Feats normally work, and also you couldn't take them earlier than you normally could, but I much prefered that system.

It made them much more useful for Clerics and Druids over all, didn't affect Sorcerers, and tended (at higher levels) to rduce the amount of modified spells Wizards had, and tended not to really use at the right times, wasting an Empowered Fireball when a normal Fireball was all they really wanted, but didn't have it prepped.

Yeah that seems good too, the problem, as someone else mentioned, is that metamagic without level adjustments is TOO GOOD, but as is, they are a pain to use without ways to reduce the cost with the traits and spell perfection.

Getting a middle-of-the-road effect is the hard part...

Osirion

Fleshgrinder wrote:
I prefer metamagic rods and go with item creation feats.

What he said.

The Sudden Empower / etc. feats from the end of 3.5 were decent, and the Unearthed Arcana option that probably inspired them is okay, but the standard feats themselves suck, IMO.

Shadow Lodge

Darksoul the painbringer wrote:
You sure that's right? I suppose I should watch my wording, since it seems like Evoker is an actual archetype. He's a Wizard with the Evocation School specialization.

thats what you get at level one. You also get a bonus to damage on evocation spells.

Quote:
There was a function he has that works as changing the elemental damage of a spell into another, and has the same restrictions and rules as any other feature. The thing is, it requires him to use spell slots/points for him to utilize it. It's nice for overcoming DR/Resists, but that's about it.

Thats the feat Elemental spell i think.

Quote:
That's actually very important, and something that I'll bring up to the group right away. It'll be imperative for future sessions, so the Wizard can actually utilize that Rod in the middle of combat, since drawing a weapon can be combined with actual movement (IDK if this is houseruling or not, but it is how we have done it for quite some time now).

As long as your bab is +1 or higher you can. (if you're at 5th and your bab is not one you're doing some interesting multiclassing.. )


To BigNorseWolf:

If you take the Admixture focused school as an Evoker, you do lose the Force Missile class feature. It's a fair trade IMO, since the Admixture focused school is way better than the vanilla Evoker.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


The problem is that Evil characters in general do not buff.

I think you mean the evil characters in your group specifically do not buff.

I'm playing in a Way of the Wicked Campaign as an evil Alchemist (Chirurgeon/Reanimator) and I expend many extracts or potions buffing/healing my allies because when your meat shield is healthy the paladin wastes their smites on him.

Your group is just not very skilled at being evil.

Effective evil cooperates.

Taldor RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Just want to point out (as I've seen the item mentioned a couple of times) that a Still metamagic rod doesn't exist in the core rules, likely due to the usefulness issues mentioned in this thread. Hard to get out the rod to use it if you really need Still Spell right now.

I think the utility of the feats goes down as they require a higher spell level adjustment, and the utility of the rods goes up in the same situation. A rod of Quicken Spell or Persistant Spell is a power boost far out of proportion with its cost, while a rod of Extend or Silent is a nice thing to have, but not game changing.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed an uncivil post.

Qadira

I didn't read every post, so sorry if this has already been suggested.

What about giving all spellcasters access to all metamagic feats, but require a concentration/spellcraft check to use? And just as with casting defensively, a failed check means the slot is wasted. Prepared casters would make the check when preparing, I guess? Or possibly, not require higher spell slots, but make the check DC extremely hard.


thejeff wrote:
Black_Lantern wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Black_Lantern wrote:
Elibdis Killstrokian wrote:
Hmmmmmm....I'm trying to level up an Arcane Scorcerer right now. Anyone use Empower or Maximize? I thought they sounded pretty cool. Of course I'm definitley going to get Extend and Quicken.
If you don't have magical lineage or Wayang Spellhunter then Empower and Maximize aren't with it at lower levels. Some good Low level metamagic feats are topple spell, silent, and Still.
Are they really worth it just for one spell? I guess one spell now and an investment for later?

wayang spellhunter

magical lineage
empower
orc bloodline
Varisian Tattoo(evocation)
lvl 6 sorcerer

empowered fireball
10d6+10

Idk you tell me.

Both traits, 3 feats (since you need spell focus) and you've got a neat trick at 6th level. It makes a blaster caster almost effective, when you've got the multiple targets to use it on without your party getting in the way.

Actually read tattooed sorcerer you don't need spell focus. Empowered itself is already awesome, varisian is already good on itself. Sure the traits are only for the fireball but the other two feats are penalty versatile. 45 damage fireball is nothing to laugh at level 6 and level 7 it gains an extra 2d6+2 as well. It will stay relevant for a long time.


I like the idea of the spellcraft check to cast metamagic modified spells. I've also thought about treating each level cost as another round you have to wait until the spell can be cast. A +1 metamagic feat takes two rounds to cast, for example.


man i havent ever met a magus that dosent use intensified spell. quickened and empowered(or reach) are the 2 best choices for meeting the prerequisites for spell perfection. i like to use them, but i dont load up on them.

now in 3.5 oh yeah, i had a force missle mage that tore s!*$ up, and almost all of his feats were meta magic.


I agree with the idea that evil does not buff = foolish evil. I played an evil wizard for a while in a mostly good group. I buffed with the best because it not only provided me with meat shields..it made them a touch more tolerant of my side ventures. Evil does not have to mean 100% selfish or the like; LE in particular should work together like a well oiled machine.
I found that no one in my groups ever played metas..I switched them to a # of times per day, and now the do get used somewhat

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