I only take one or two and they're neverr more than +1. Extend us every useful.
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I prefer metamagic rods and go with item creation feats.
Quicken Spell and Extend Spell are my two mainstays. Depending on character concept, I'll also use Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Elemental Spell fairly regularly.
I have quicken on my witch.. I use it occasionally but the save DC for a quickened spell is low enough vs CR that its pretty much just a waste of a spell slot.
I use extend *far* more often, but always in conjunction with a lesser rod.
Mage armor on myself and my familiar is every single day right off the bat with an extra use for something that comes up during the day. (like haste).
-S
By raw? No. Very rarely except for persistant spell. A few more are very useful but only rarely, like still spell, so people grab rods
I think this thread says it all. Most of the time for most people, metamagic feats aren't going to cut it. But every build has its exceptions. You running a build that needs range? Go Reach. Think you will need duration? Extend it. The rods are great, but sometimes you may find yourself wanting a Quicken spell and that can be expensive. Just play it be ear. As a cleric, you can always just use spontaneous cast to replace a prepared metamagic spell that isn't needed, but if none of the feats suit you, ignore them.
Personal Example: My level 11 wizard almost always has one instance of Quickened Invisibility prepared because it works well with being a summoning specialist. However, he also has Reach & Extend Metamagic rods.
I have quicken on my witch.. I use it occasionally but the save DC for a quickened spell is low enough vs CR that its pretty much just a waste of a spell slot.
I typically use quicken for defensive spells like mirror image, or group buffs like haste. You're right that the save DCs will be far too low for using quickened spells offensively.
Nope
Sometimes Metamagic spells can be very nice. One of the few underestimated (high-end) Metamagic feats is the Intensified Spell feat.
For example, if I were a 15th level Wizard, I could cast a Fireball for a 4th level spell slot (or 4 spell points, depending on what system you use), and instead of it dealing the current maximum of 10D6 as the spell description states, it would instead deal 15D6, as per the rules of the feat.
It's not one that should be listed as just useful for high-end, but it should be great for other, lower level spells that cap off sooner than that (like Magic Missile, Inflict Critical Wounds, etc.)
Another good one is the Piercing Spell feat, which pretty much grants you an additional +5 to your Spell Penetration check at the cost of a spell slot 1 higher than usual (or 1 spell point, depending on the system your DM implements), and is nice for consistency in regards to DPS and debuffs, etc.
There are probably a couple more out there that can be pretty good if used in an acceptable situation.
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Its always better to get the rod. The rod
-costs gold instead of your feats
-Works on the fly
-Doesn't increase the spell slot into your more powerful spells
I have quicken on my witch.. I use it occasionally but the save DC for a quickened spell is low enough vs CR that its pretty much just a waste of a spell slot.Quickened Ill Omen... no save... follow it with any spell/hex requiring a save... Baleful Polymorph, the Sleep Hex.
Seems like gold to me.
As a general rule I avoid any spell or hex that essentially 1 shots the enemy. I have neither bale polymorph or sleep hex. I do have flesh to stone but I only use it rarely. (twice to date, and we're just now 14th level).
While effective as heck- they are really too effective.
I did miss that Ill Omen had no save though- I'd been using it ocasionally but thought that it did have one. So my thanks (and probably the hairy eyeball from my DM) for correcting me on that :)
Gonna love that combo with misforune though :)
-S
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Quickened Black Tentacles and Quickened Improved Invisibility are the best 8th-level spells out there.
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I play mostly low levels os their isn't much use to them then.
Its always better to get the rod. The rod
-costs gold instead of your feats
-Works on the fly
-Doesn't increase the spell slot into your more powerful spells
I would agree that a Rod is acceptable and convenient in some situations; however, I believe a character build should be set up so that they use a Quarterstaff/Staff before they completely go on the Rod bandwagon.
If I were a Magus and wanted to utilize Metamagics for Spell Striking and such, I wouldn't be able to equip Rods to use them in conjunction of my sword because they are two-handed bludgeoning weapons. It's fit for a Wizard who just blows spells, but when they run out of slots/spell points, what are they gonna do? Sit there with a male reproductive organ in their hand while their party carries the rest of the fight on without their support because they are drained? No. They're going to use 0th's, draw their swords or bows or whatever, and continue fighting.
Some casters even do that from the get-go as part of their build/playstyle (Arcane Archers, Generic Magus', etc.), and Rods cost extreme amounts of cash, and some aren't even refreshable (that is, calculated as times per day), or even viable as Metamagic Rods. Plus it takes up important Weapon Stats that are more-or-less key for some Caster builds (such as Spell Storing, a +5 Defending weapon, a Brilliant Energy weapon, etc).
And as far as I knew, I thought the Rod only allowed you to cast spells and functioned and treated as the Metamagic feat; meaning the restrictions and pre-reqs for the stuff still applied. Is there some RAW contradicting this statement?
magical lineage+wayang spellhunter+Empower Is pretty strong. Also Topple Spell is strong with magic missile at early levels. Maximize, Intensify, Quicken, and Dazed are good late game. Silent and Still spell are good for versatility. Echo+Spell Perfection allows infinite of one specific spell as well.
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Quicken Spell is great, because by the time you're high enough to use it, action economy is everything.
In 3.5, EVERY cleric took the Persistent (24-hour) Spell feat at 12th or 15th level, because you were stupid if you didn't -- especially given how many ways there were to subsume the level cost. This meant you already had Extend Spell (which can also be handy) -- and wizards generally took Extend Spell, too, so as to make rope trick resting available at lower levels.
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In my campaign, I toyed around with making metamagic effects a Spellcraft check instead. Still needs a thorough playtest though.
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In my campaign, I toyed around with making metamagic effects a Spellcraft check instead. Still needs a thorough playtest though.
My group and I toyed with a similar change.
Spellcraft to know if it was possible for the spell, then a concentration (caster) check 10+2xlevel of spell (adjusted by metamagic) to pull it off. So if they were meta'ing a 4th level spell with something that raised it 2 levels, spellcraft DC was 21, caster check DC was 22. Was still only using a 4th level slot.
Free metamagic broke 3rd edition -- I'd be VERY leary of making it available wholesale. The important thing about the cost isn't the slot, it's the level at which you gain effective access to that particular trick.
If you still wanted to go down that path, you'd eliminate all combat feats, too, of course, and give everyone a relatively easy 1d20+BAB check to see if they could pull them off?
Oh not free...took move action to meta, and it flat out wasn't possible on anything other than 1 round or instant spells.
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Free metamagic broke 3rd edition -- I'd be VERY leary of making it available wholesale...
Unless you eliminated all combat feats, too, and gave everyone a 1d20+BAB check to see if they could pull them off, as well.
No, I think it should be an option instead of sacrificing the additional spell slot(s), since I think that's how the feat should be calculated as. I mean, as you grow in power, you should be able to control the amount of Arcane Power (or for a Cleric's case, the power given by a Deity) you sacrifice, not have to spend more to make a lower level ability seem sub-par to begin with. I do agree that the feat should still be required to take, just as the Melee feats are required to take in order to perform.
However, I do believe instead of a Spell Slot consumption, that the character instead can do a Concentration check, the DC being 10 + 2x Meta-magicked Spell Level (for example, a 3rd level Maximized, Empowered Fireball would equate to a DC of 26), and if they fail, the spell fizzles, the spell slot/spell points consumed in the process.
It would definitely be interesting, and I think I'll propose this to my GM.
Oh not free...took move action to meta, and it flat out wasn't possible on anything other than 1 round or instant spells.
So, let me make sure I understand this, say I'm a 9th level wizard, Int 24. We encounter a bunch of minions. I cast confusion, but first make a 1d20+16 check vs. DC 22 (I need a 6) to make them save twice (Persistent Spell). I ALWAYS do this, with every single spell that requires a save, because I'd be stupid not to. It doesn't cost me a feat, there's no level barrier -- all it costs is a move action (which I don't care about anyway, because I'm in the back of the party away from all the action).
At the end, there are not one, but TWO horrid BBEGs we're facing. We win initiative, and I want to end the fight right away. So instead of running around pointlessly, I spend my move action making a check at 1d20+16 vs. DC 28 (I need a 12 to succeed), and then cast hold monster at one of the BBEGs, and a quickened hold monster at the other one, and potentially end the fight right there. If I fail the check, no harm done, I've still gotten off my usual hold monster, and ended half the fight instead. No sweat!
We also designed a system to use a Spellcraft check to replace the spell level increase. Until we did that, no one used the metamagic feats.
We never got to those levels to test it that high, but yeah that would be possible.
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We also messed around with dc's are 10+stat+1/2 caster level, no matter the level of the spell.
We never got to those levels to test it that high, but yeah that would be possible.
Why would anyone not play a full caster? I mean, you're already gimped at 10th level if you don't, but giving away infinite free metamagic seals the deal, and at a much lower level. One caster can end whole adventures by himself, because everyone pretty much always has to save twice against all his save-or-lose spells, and all his damaging spells pretty much deal max damage and/or max + 50%, or he can just pop out two spells a round instead, whenever he wants. That's insane!
At least use the Sudden Metamagic feats uses/day limitation.
We also messed around with dc's are 10+stat+1/2 caster level, no matter the level of the spell.
Whatever the DC is, it's mostly irrelevant, because if there's no cost for failure, there's no reason not to try. Now, if on a failed metamagic check, I not only lost the spell completely (i.e., lost my turn), and maybe also took 1d6 damage per level of the (metamagic adjusted) spell, then I'd maybe think twice about using it. But if there's no penalty? If it were a straight 1% chance of success, why wouldn't I roll for that chance every time I cast a spell? Also, a static check encourages people to try for more powerful metamagic effects, and more of them, since it's not any harder to cast a quickened, intensified, persistent fireball than it is to just cast a persistent one.
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I house rule that Metamagic Feats act more like the Sudden Metamagic Feats fron 3.5 (the only good fix I've seen so for), allowing you to apply them 1/day, but also allowing you to take the Feats multiple times for an additional 1/day. Additionally, you can also use them as written, using up a higher level spell slots.
I never get to play enough at higher level that Quicken would be a real option, and otherwise the only one I have use at all are Extend Spell. Sometimes it is useless and sometimes worth a feat depending on the adventure. If there are many short encounters, it is practically useless, unless the DM rules that the fights happen close enoug together that prior buffs are still up, which doesn't happen that often, especally at lower level.
Keep in mind I play Divine Casters much more than Arcane, Metamagic is already much, much less useful, and after playstyle come in, I usually wouldn't touch a Metamagic Feat unless I was forced to, unless it where a +0 or max +1 effective spell level.
To be honest, for me, the only way Metamagic would ever be viable would be to go through, spell by spell, and apply the cost based on the bost it would get. Metamagic spells are, for Divine Cassters especially, tend to be worse than a normal spell of that level. OR under a spellpoint system.
I play with people that look for loopholes. So most of my well intentioned changes were quickly wrecked. To the point of no longer looking for fixes, and just sticking to RAW.
those 2 ideas also weren't tried at the same time.
Metamagic rods are pretty much a spellcaster's best friend. Why a spellcaster won't get a lesser rod of maximize as soon as they can afford it is beyond me.
That said, feat-wise, I've always taken Quicken Spell as soon as it becomes viable (which is right around level 9 or 11), and as a wizard or sorcerer I take at least either Maximize or Empower. Clerics/Druids/Oracles can get a ton of use out of Extend. I ended up using both Empower and Maximize quite a bit with my last character (an air-specialized wizard) to wonderful effect. Scorching ray goes wonderful with empower spell (especially since the vast majority of 4th level offense spells blow), and maximized fireballs are always useful (though to be fair, I was using a lesser metamagic rod to maximize them.)
Yeah, if you failed you lost the spell jsut as if casting defensively.
Sorry I failed to mention that.
But as Kirth pointed out it would be really hard to fail that check at high levels.
If I were a Magus and wanted to utilize Metamagics for Spell Striking and such, I wouldn't be able to equip Rods to use them in conjunction of my sword because they are two-handed bludgeoning weapons.
Ermm... no.
Physical Description: Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds. They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal. (Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their hardy construction.)
Maces and light clubs are one handed bludgeoning weapons. That might be problematic for a magus, but probably not for anyone else.
It's fit for a Wizard who just blows spells, but when they run out of slots/spell points, what are they gonna do?
By the time you can afford a rod or are ready to get some mileage out of metamagics that increase by a level this really shouldn't be much of a problem.
They are MUCH cheaper than staves. 3k can get you a lesser rod if the increase is only 1 spell level.
Some casters even do that from the get-go as part of their build/playstyle (Arcane Archers, Generic Magus', etc.), and Rods cost extreme amounts of cash, and some aren't even refreshable (that is, calculated as times per day), or even viable as Metamagic Rods. Plus it takes up important Weapon Stats that are more-or-less key for some Caster builds (such as Spell Storing, a +5 Defending weapon, a Brilliant Energy weapon, etc)
those are for gish builds.
And as far as I knew, I thought the Rod only allowed you to cast spells and functioned and treated as the Metamagic feat; meaning the restrictions and pre-reqs for the stuff still applied. Is there some RAW contradicting this statement?
I'm not sure what you mean here.
The only free metamagic is spell perfection, magical lineage, and wayang spellhunter to my knowledge. However both of the traits require you to pick a spell that you "specialize" in. So in the end they're powerful traits but not broken by any means.
If I were a Magus and wanted to utilize Metamagics for Spell Striking and such, I wouldn't be able to equip Rods to use them in conjunction of my sword because they are two-handed bludgeoning weapons.
Ermm... no.
Physical Description: Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds. They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal. (Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their hardy construction.)
Maces and light clubs are one handed bludgeoning weapons. That might be problematic for a magus, but probably not for anyone else.
It's fit for a Wizard who just blows spells, but when they run out of slots/spell points, what are they gonna do?By the time you can afford a rod or are ready to get some mileage out of metamagics that increase by a level this really shouldn't be much of a problem.
They are MUCH cheaper than staves. 3k can get you a lesser rod if the increase is only 1 spell level.
Some casters even do that from the get-go as part of their build/playstyle (Arcane Archers, Generic Magus', etc.), and Rods cost extreme amounts of cash, and some aren't even refreshable (that is, calculated as times per day), or even viable as Metamagic Rods. Plus it takes up important Weapon Stats that are more-or-less key for some Caster builds (such as Spell Storing, a +5 Defending weapon, a Brilliant Energy weapon, etc)those are for gish builds.
And as far as I knew, I thought the Rod only allowed you to cast spells and functioned and treated as the Metamagic feat; meaning the restrictions and pre-reqs for the stuff still applied. Is there some RAW contradicting this statement?I'm not sure what you mean here.
Rods aren't exactly great weapons hand to hand (no duh). They only function as maybe a Masterwork version of what you just depicted, and that's being generous.
There are other worthwhile Metas that increase slots by 2 or more, and a Wizard isn't like a Sorcerer in that they can just blow their Spell Points/Slots and not have to worry about future encounters due to their extended spell allotments per day.
What are gish builds again? I don't see how that counters my point in that Rods are limited to usage per day, that their charges (sometimes, not sure about this) cannot be refreshed once expended, and that the Rods are limited in selection. You know of a Rod of Intensify Spell? I sure don't, and that's one of the greater end-game Metas.
As to what I meant; as far as I recall, Rods only allow the caster to utilize the content of what's placed into the Rod. If the Rod is a Metamagic Rod, it only allows the bearer to utilize the Metas as they are normally utilized; this includes their spell slot increase for casting it on an elevated level, the required level of spells to cast it, etc. So what's the point of a Rod if all it does is just allow you to use a Feat a certain number of times per day?
Hmmmmmm....I'm trying to level up an Arcane Scorcerer right now. Anyone use Empower or Maximize? I thought they sounded pretty cool. Of course I'm definitley going to get Extend and Quicken.
Empower and Maximize are decent choices; though I wouldn't recommend them unless you got crazy amounts of Spell Points/Slots to blow through. It's great if you just want to completely destroy everything with their combined power, but it is costly, and not something you should do constantly.
If you're looking more for Endgame/Epic type Metamagics, I listed a couple good ones above, if you can sift through all of this.
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I dislike all "pay twice" feats.
I think spellcasters should all have metamagic feats without a feat cost. The cost is the spell level increase.
All warriors should have any penalty/bonus feat for free: power attack, combat expertise, cleave and lunge all provide a bonus at a penalty. Why must they pay twice?
Fears are rare, if they don't provide a bonus or a new option without a penalty they shouldn't be feats they should be options.