Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

PaizoCon 2014!

[Reaper Miniatures] Bones Kickstarter


Miniatures

301 to 350 of 537 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | next > last >>
Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber

That hydra is really impressive, would love to put that on the table.


At this point I think I may need to start A Kickstarter to pay for this Kickstarter ;-) (And I am only at 139$, but I may have to give up my Sophie, just to get the Hydra and Red Dragon, Damn.)

I did the math and to get all the add on pieces from the Vampire level comes to a total of something like 375$ (and this includes a case and all four paint sets)

Cheliax RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Leo_Negri wrote:
I did the math and to get all the add on pieces from the Vampire level comes to a total of something like 375$ (and this includes a case and all four paint sets)

Is that it? Maybe there's not as many add-ons as I thought there were...

I have Demons ($15), Ebonwrath ($10), Nethyrmaul ($25), Mind Your Manors ($10), Orcpocalypse ($25), the Pathfinder red dragon ($10), 2 cases ($25 x 2 = $50) and 3 paint sets ($18 x 3 = $54). I traded in Sophie for an extra $25 of stuff (cancels out Nethyrmaul).

So $100 + 15 + 10 + 10 + 25 + 10 + 50 + 54 = $284. ...huh.

I pledged $6 more than I needed. I guess I'm getting an extra set of 'Fire It Up!' and a second Mr. Bones, then. :D


Updated total - Vampire + 1 of each add on (Including Paints, Case, and Orcpocalyps) 439$ add 110$ if you want the Sophie collection as well and add another 28$ for the Urban Legend Sophie Kickstarter Exclusive. So to get one of each figure they are offering (not including Greens and Silvers) would cost = 577$ and that includes somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 never before seen sculpts. Not too bad.

Qadira

I know there is talk that you can swap out Sophie mini for $25 towards other minis but are you allowed to swap out others? Like the Chronoscope figs or the Zombie Hunters for their value and then add in other things like doubles of the Fire it Up or something?

Osirion

I gave up second pathfinder battles subscription... only way I could afford this and everything else this month.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Fake Healer wrote:
I know there is talk that you can swap out Sophie mini for $25 towards other minis but are you allowed to swap out others? Like the Chronoscope figs or the Zombie Hunters for their value and then add in other things like doubles of the Fire it Up or something?

Acording to Reaper's replies... no.

At the time, the only thing you can swap out is Sophie.


I almost feel rude about swapping out a Sophie, somehow it just seems churlish. Then again - Sophie, or Nethyrmaul?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Shifty wrote:
Then again - Sophie, or Nethyrmaul?

Why not both of them?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Fake Healer wrote:
I know there is talk that you can swap out Sophie mini for $25 towards other minis but are you allowed to swap out others? Like the Chronoscope figs or the Zombie Hunters for their value and then add in other things like doubles of the Fire it Up or something?

Yeah i would love to swap out all the sci-fi and zombie hunter minis for their value.That would be a great feature.

Cheliax RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

I don't mind the non-fantasy minis. I play modern horror/sci-fi/steampunk semi-often. I'm sure they'll get used for something.

And hey, a couple of the zombie hunters and Chronoscope miniatures could work for Pathfinder gunslingers anyway!

Bear in mind that the WHOLE PURPOSE of this Kickstarter is to expand the Bones line to include lots of new molds. They're using the money to get the molds that are creating those very same minis that you don't want. If you don't take them, then they're wasting the money. :)

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber

I'm thinking that the marines will make good minis for practising and testing on.

I'll probably run an 'through the Pathfinder carnival ride' adventure one day too, just to use some of the modern minis.

Grand Lodge

GeraintElberion wrote:

I'm thinking that the marines will make good minis for practising and testing on.

I'll probably run an 'through the Pathfinder carnival ride' adventure one day too, just to use some of the modern minis.

^This

Cheliax RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

GeraintElberion wrote:
I'm thinking that the marines will make good minis for practising and testing on.

That is precisely my intention.

I think I might also render the chainsaw-wielding zombie hunter into a Warhammer 40K Sister Repentia to practice my modding techniques.


I'm dreading the waiting until March of next year! I would have loved to at least get a few of the mini's to practice painting on. Am I alone?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
cthulhudarren wrote:
I'm dreading the waiting until March of next year! I would have loved to at least get a few of the mini's to practice painting on. Am I alone?

Normally I'd be right there with you but I think at this point I'm more looking forward to having that big box o' minis delivered to my doorstep. Opening that box is going to be akin to opening that briefcase from Pulp Fiction with the GLORIOUS GOLDEN LIGHT of unpainted minis washing over my person and...

Okay...yeah, may have gone overboard there. Anyway you know what I mean.


I want to just point out that the hydra has five heads.
It has legs.
Looks very dragonny.

If it would some how gain some wings and the heads were painted different colors, it might just pass for ...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fatespinner wrote:
Can anyone with more painting experience tell me... do I need more paint? Should I maybe order 2 of each paint set instead? Or 3?

You can actually get pretty far with cheap craft paints. These paints are inferior because they have larger flakes of paint in the paint suspension, and don't thin as well with water compared to hobby paints. If you buy large miniatures, you can certainly use craft paints for your first layer of basecoat.

The easiest miniatures to paint are those without faces. Also large naked miniatures (eg. dragons) are ironically easiest to paint. I would start with the rats, undead, and fully armored SF miniatures. Various boardgames have plastic pawns and miniatures you can start with.

Also, make sure you have a spotter brush. These are the smallest detail brushes. Your wife probably has them if she does miniatures. Brush soap is useful, and cheap at a crafts store.

You may want a second set of paint for Sets 1 and 3. The irritation of buying a second set is that you may run out of one color long before the others.

Since it sounds like your wife paints, offer to help her out with her hobby! Any time she can save with you doing prep work and cleaning, she can use for detailing and improving her skill!

Osirion

bigkilla wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:
I know there is talk that you can swap out Sophie mini for $25 towards other minis but are you allowed to swap out others? Like the Chronoscope figs or the Zombie Hunters for their value and then add in other things like doubles of the Fire it Up or something?
Yeah i would love to swap out all the sci-fi and zombie hunter minis for their value.That would be a great feature.

I am with you on this.


pres man wrote:
Part of me hopes they start only showing the next stretch goal instead of the next 2. That way when it all comes to an end, I don't have to be extra disappointed by what we didn't make it to.

If we fail to reach a stretch goal for miniatures that come with a Vampire or Undertaker level, we can still purchase them as Extra Sets. Unfortunately, an Optional miniature can only be purchased (for now) once its stretch goal has been met.


You cannot swap out any miniatures, other than Sophie, from a Vampire pledge. However, the Reaper minis forums has a thread about trading miniatures. If you have feedback on the Reaper KS, post it on the Reaper KS thread, not here. Reaper doesn't read this forum, and *have* listened to customer comments, particularly with mummies and halflings, and the Sophie swap!

Osirion

ced1106 wrote:
Fatespinner wrote:
Can anyone with more painting experience tell me... do I need more paint? Should I maybe order 2 of each paint set instead? Or 3?

You can actually get pretty far with cheap craft paints. These paints are inferior because they have larger flakes of paint in the paint suspension, and don't thin as well with water compared to hobby paints. If you buy large miniatures, you can certainly use craft paints for your first layer of basecoat.

The easiest miniatures to paint are those without faces. Also large naked miniatures (eg. dragons) are ironically easiest to paint. I would start with the rats, undead, and fully armored SF miniatures. Various boardgames have plastic pawns and miniatures you can start with.

Also, make sure you have a spotter brush. These are the smallest detail brushes. Your wife probably has them if she does miniatures. Brush soap is useful, and cheap at a crafts store.

You may want a second set of paint for Sets 1 and 3. The irritation of buying a second set is that you may run out of one color long before the others.

Since it sounds like your wife paints, offer to help her out with her hobby! Any time she can save with you doing prep work and cleaning, she can use for detailing and improving her skill!

That is cool advice... thank you for sharing.


They're willing to swap out Sophie partly because they're responding to customer feedback, but also because in this specific case it probably saves them money. I think most of us who want to switch Sophie out see a big mini like the dracolich as being way more valuable, but the plastic used to make the dracolich is way cheaper than the tin used to make Sophie. So in this case, they'll save money. The same wouldn't be true if they let you switch plastic minis for other plastic minis. Plus, it's going to be a big headache to box all the orders if every Vampire order is different. This way, they can toss a Vampire in the box and then deal with the rest. Sophie is going to ship in September anyway, so she was already a separate ship.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
ShinHakkaider wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
I'm dreading the waiting until March of next year! I would have loved to at least get a few of the mini's to practice painting on. Am I alone?

Normally I'd be right there with you but I think at this point I'm more looking forward to having that big box o' minis delivered to my doorstep. Opening that box is going to be akin to opening that briefcase from Pulp Fiction with the GLORIOUS GOLDEN LIGHT of unpainted minis washing over my person and...

Okay...yeah, may have gone overboard there. Anyway you know what I mean.

Reaper does have a small Bones line already, I ordered a minotaur and two 3 packs of kobolds for just this purpose.


Robert Hawkshaw wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLzrWFJTLvg

A new update video.

As an aside, it amuses me that they use the same song loop for background music as what is used as the theme song for "My Drunk Kitchen."

Quote:


Sounds like you can swap the sophie out for 25 bucks in addons. Which is a fantastic deal, turns your 100 dollar pledge into 125 if you aren't into motorcycle riding succubi.

I am REALLY into motorcycle riding succubi, but OTOH I could use a case to put all these minis in...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DeathQuaker wrote:
Robert Hawkshaw wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLzrWFJTLvg

A new update video.

As an aside, it amuses me that they use the same song loop for background music as what is used as the theme song for "My Drunk Kitchen."

Quote:


Sounds like you can swap the sophie out for 25 bucks in addons. Which is a fantastic deal, turns your 100 dollar pledge into 125 if you aren't into motorcycle riding succubi.
I am REALLY into motorcycle riding succubi, but OTOH I could use a case to put all these minis in...

All these minis wont fit in just 1 of those cases anymore.


Caineach wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
Robert Hawkshaw wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLzrWFJTLvg

A new update video.

As an aside, it amuses me that they use the same song loop for background music as what is used as the theme song for "My Drunk Kitchen."

Quote:


Sounds like you can swap the sophie out for 25 bucks in addons. Which is a fantastic deal, turns your 100 dollar pledge into 125 if you aren't into motorcycle riding succubi.
I am REALLY into motorcycle riding succubi, but OTOH I could use a case to put all these minis in...
All these minis wont fit in just 1 of those cases anymore.

It's still a start.

Cheliax RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

ced1106 wrote:
Since it sounds like your wife paints, offer to help her out with her hobby! Any time she can save with you doing prep work and cleaning, she can use for detailing and improving her skill!

She does craft painting, not miniatures. Usually on canvas, but sometimes pottery and such. Pretty much zero detail work, so I will need to invest in at least some of the smallest brushes, but for broad strokes, I'm good. :)

The advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you!


So here's a timetable for the new painters! :)

Practice, practice, practice:

TODAY: Go to Walmart and get a cheap kid's acrylic paint set and a set of detailed brushes. You may luck out and find a set of "miniatures" brushes. You're buying this to build up your skill and experiment. You will find out what you *can* do and can't do with the cheaper stuff.

TODAY: Find something small practice on. Mini's, game pieces, a USB stick, whatever. Search for and read internet beginner's painters tips. You don't have anything to ruin, so don't worry about it. You can always repaint that USB stick, right? Learn up to basecoating and washing.

SUNDAY: Get the Michael's or craft store coupon and buy brush soap and a detailed Sable brush. You actually want to keep the Sable brush in good condition. Everything else is disposable.

SEPTEMBER: The Reaper paints will arrive! By now, you will have read how much you'll be mixing paints (eg. lighter shades for highlights) and what you can and can't do with craft paints.

SEPTEMBER: Get some miniatures to paint. Touch up the prepaints, buy some miniatures that are easy to paint (eg. rats, undead, furniture), whatever.

MARCH: The Bones arrive! Start on the largest figures without clothing. Yes, it's ironic that the Clockwork dragon may be the easiest to paint. Base coat in metal, wash with another color.

Have fun!


ced1106 wrote:
TODAY: Find something small practice on. Mini's, game pieces, a USB stick, whatever. Search for and read internet beginner's painters tips. You don't have anything to ruin, so don't worry about it. You can always repaint that USB stick, right? Learn up to basecoating and washing.

I would recommend army men or cowboy and indian sets. They are usually sized between medium and large for gaming miniatures, so they should be pretty good practice and you can usually get a lot for pretty cheap.

Cheliax

Pledged mine for 137: Deep dwellers, Nova (need alot of powered armor guys for my PA game), Swamp things (if the KS gets that far) and two sets of giants.

Don't really need a whole new set of minis but I love non-random Reaper minis. What finally sold me was that they are making efforts to get their operation out of China and back to Texas.

Taldor

I saw a comment to the effect that their building refit is being funded now.


ced1106 wrote:

So here's a timetable for the new painters! :)

Practice, practice, practice:

TODAY: Go to Walmart and get a cheap kid's acrylic paint set and a set of detailed brushes. You may luck out and find a set of "miniatures" brushes. You're buying this to build up your skill and experiment. You will find out what you *can* do and can't do with the cheaper stuff.

TODAY: Find something small practice on. Mini's, game pieces, a USB stick, whatever. Search for and read internet beginner's painters tips. You don't have anything to ruin, so don't worry about it. You can always repaint that USB stick, right? Learn up to basecoating and washing.

SUNDAY: Get the Michael's or craft store coupon and buy brush soap and a detailed Sable brush. You actually want to keep the Sable brush in good condition. Everything else is disposable.

SEPTEMBER: The Reaper paints will arrive! By now, you will have read how much you'll be mixing paints (eg. lighter shades for highlights) and what you can and can't do with craft paints.

SEPTEMBER: Get some miniatures to paint. Touch up the prepaints, buy some miniatures that are easy to paint (eg. rats, undead, furniture), whatever.

MARCH: The Bones arrive! Start on the largest figures without clothing. Yes, it's ironic that the Clockwork dragon may be the easiest to paint. Base coat in metal, wash with another color.

Have fun!

Thanks for this. Do they really make paint brushes that are small enough to paint the tiniest details, like eyes? They have to be like only a few hairs thick.


You paint the eyes before the face (now I have Billy Idol going through my mind, LOL). You then paint the face around the eyes, so you don't have to be as precise when you do it in that order.


pres man wrote:
You paint the eyes before the face (now I have Billy Idol going through my mind, LOL). You then paint the face around the eyes, so you don't have to be as precise when you do it in that order.

What is this.. sorcery!


Another thing... what will y'all do to get these figures onto more grid-friendly bases? I mean this more for the minis that are larger than medium sized. It looks like a bunch of these, like giants and dragons, don't have a base at all. It is really helpful to have these on bases so you can know what "squares" the monster is in. What do y'all suggest?

Qadira

cthulhudarren wrote:
Thanks for this. Do they really make paint brushes that are small enough to paint the tiniest details, like eyes? They have to be like only a few hairs thick.

Not only do you get to paint with a hair on a stick, you get to hear discussions about what is the best kind of hair on a stick to use.

To start with, a size 0 and a size 000 brush of a type suitable for mini painting is good enough.

Games Workshop brushes are not fantastic, but they are good enough.

Edit : For bases, a square of plywood of the correct size and blu-tack to keep the mini in place during play. That way you can use the same mini and different pieces of wood for different size categories.

Taldor

There are lots of solutions to the base issue. Plywood, or thin sliced dowel rod is one way. Fender washers (thin cheap washers with big outside diameters) is another. Fancy scenic bases are another etc... There are tons of companies out there that cater to the mini base market. Iron Halo, Litko, Back 2 Basics...


We will probably hit the paizo iconics by early this evening. we are 19k away from it, and moving quickly. We will definately hit swamps and possibly 2 more. Alot of new backers also.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
cthulhudarren wrote:
Another thing... what will y'all do to get these figures onto more grid-friendly bases? I mean this more for the minis that are larger than medium sized. It looks like a bunch of these, like giants and dragons, don't have a base at all. It is really helpful to have these on bases so you can know what "squares" the monster is in. What do y'all suggest?

In my experience, Reaper minis stand horribly. I plan on rebasing all of the medium and large monsters. With the larger ones it really depends on the model. Assemble it and then see.

With this many, you will probably want to go out and get some cheap bases. Squares vs circles doesn't matter unless you plan on playing wargames with them (Warhammer, 40K, ect). 28/30mm or 1 inch bases are not hard to come by. Unless you are buying scenic bases, do not pay more than $.25 each because quarters work well for medium creatures, especially if you only have a few. You should be able to find bulk bases for ~$.05 or less.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
cthulhudarren wrote:


Thanks for this. Do they really make paint brushes that are small enough to paint the tiniest details, like eyes? They have to be like only a few hairs thick.

They make extremely tiny tiny brushes that can paint a faint line.

DO NOT waste your money on them. I am following advice that I have read by pro painters, and I stand by it having done it many times in practice -- you really need no smaller than a #2 round, MAYBE a #1. Preferably very high quality (I'm always touting Windsor and Newton artist series) Kolinsky sable, because they keep their tip.

Why? Because the tip of the brush will still be as hair thin as tinier brushes....

BUT unlike tinier brushes, the (relatively) larger brush is big enough to hold a reserve of paint in the brush without immediately drying out. This means ultimately, it is easier to paint detail with it.

The teensy tiny brushes dry out extremely quickly, meaning you have to keep dipping it in paint and then applying stuff, and it will end up looking jagged and funky, or paint will cake onto it and create, ironically, a thicker line than you want.

For a simple cheat, however, if you really need to do some fancy detailing in black or another color over a light color, buy yourself a Micron pen. These are ink pens that have very very tiny nibs. Because of the way minis work, you can't necessarily just draw all over them, but for certain details you can use them -- I use them sometimes to dot in an eye pupil, or more often, to write script on a model where writing would be appropriate.

pres man wrote:
You paint the eyes before the face (now I have Billy Idol going through my mind, LOL). You then paint the face around the eyes, so you don't have to be as precise when you do it in that order.

I do the opposite--I slather paint all over the face, detail it, then more carefully paint in the eye, and line the edges with very diluted black ink. Because otherwise, if I paint the eyes first, it is absolutely guaranteed that I will slap flesh colored paint into the eye no matter how careful I try to be--and if I do the opposite (slap light gray paint from the eye onto the face) it is easier to touch up the face than re touch up the eyes later. Eyes are in fact often the very last thing I paint on a model.

But that just goes to show--there is no right way to paint a miniature. You have to figure out what works for you.


Caineach wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
Another thing... what will y'all do to get these figures onto more grid-friendly bases? I mean this more for the minis that are larger than medium sized. It looks like a bunch of these, like giants and dragons, don't have a base at all. It is really helpful to have these on bases so you can know what "squares" the monster is in. What do y'all suggest?

In my experience, Reaper minis stand horribly. I plan on rebasing all of the medium and large monsters. With the larger ones it really depends on the model. Assemble it and then see.

With this many, you will probably want to go out and get some cheap bases. Squares vs circles doesn't matter unless you plan on playing wargames with them (Warhammer, 40K, ect). 28/30mm or 1 inch bases are not hard to come by. Unless you are buying scenic bases, do not pay more than $.25 each because quarters work well for medium creatures, especially if you only have a few. You should be able to find bulk bases for ~$.05 or less.

I'd suggest waiting to see how the Bones stand before spending money on bases (although you can certainly get them cheap). While yes, the DHL broccoli bases can sometimes keep a model from standing well, and many of the Bones are based on DHL sculpts and also use broccoli bases, the difference with the DHL is that often they don't stand because either the metal mini is weighted funny and makes it top heavy, so it falls, or the base has metal mold lines that make it uneven. Most of the DHL figures I've rebased has been because of this second issue.

I imagine since the Bones line is much more lightweight, and with schmancier molds, this may be less of an issue.

'Course you could always order an existing Bones mini in the meantime and see...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Pathfinder Iconics II is in the bag and a Griffon + a mystery mini is revealed.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Auxmaulous wrote:
... What finally sold me was that they are making efforts to get their operation out of China and back to Texas.

Wait, is this right? If I had known that, I would have been in on day one.


Almost to the next goal, should have it by morning.

Andoran

Has there been any word yet about making non credit card pledges yet via PayPal???? I know they said they were trying to make that happen ...


Joe Wells wrote:
Auxmaulous wrote:
... What finally sold me was that they are making efforts to get their operation out of China and back to Texas.
Wait, is this right? If I had known that, I would have been in on day one.

Yup - Reaper has been gearing up for a return to US-based production for some time - the massive success of this KS drive has put those plans into hyperspeed! It will not surprise me in the least if *every* Bones mini is Made in the USA by March 2013.

Taldor

Marc Radle wrote:
Has there been any word yet about making non credit card pledges yet via PayPal???? I know they said they were trying to make that happen ...

It's buried in the comments, but they have said there will be a pledge manager for backers, and pledgers who didn't back at 100 will be able to use paypal to add sets. That may require you to back for at least a dollar though (wasn't clear from context of the comment).

Your best bet would be to email them directly and ask.

Taldor

The Hydra and lizardmen are funded. Next goal, griffon and owlbear:

http://www.reapermini.com/misc/KS_XWildXThingsReward.jpg


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

*le sigh*

Slowly but surely, it's not only my wallet that is screaming 'I hate you'; my bank account is starting to look miffed as well...

On the bright side, these $25 international shipping are starting to appear neglegible, compared with those $350+ worth of pledges.

301 to 350 of 537 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Community / Gaming / Miniatures / [Reaper Miniatures] Bones Kickstarter All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.