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Show me a good Alchemist Build....


Advice

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1 person marked this as a favorite.

....One that can Melee and throw Bombs if possible.I thought I understood the Alchemist until recently but right now it my builds just look like poor excuses for a Druid, Mutagen is much weaker than Wildshape and the duration is irrationaly short, and then there is the 1hour creation time wich makes it pretty much a once per day thing.

Bombs are not very powerful,you get very few of them and obviously Pathfinder does not allow you to Quickdraw Acid Flasks,so I´m a little confused what to do with the Alchemist.

Sure Smoke Bombs are cool and pretty decent Battlefield Control ,but that can´t be all.

So where is the Edge on the Alchemist,.... I´m looking forward to be enlightened:)

Cheliax

http://pathfinder.ogrehut.com/2010/07/alchemist-build-guide/


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've built a few good alchemists. The one I'm working now is all about poisoning foes to make them unconscious and then implanting bombs in them and allowing them to live and return home. But he is chaotic evil and a ranged type so perhaps not the best example here.

If you want to go melee heavy load up str and con and just use mutagens, feral, greater, grand, growth, though that tree takes longer to climb.


wellsmv wrote:
http://pathfinder.ogrehut.com/2010/07/alchemist-build-guide/

Already know that, and wasn´t too impressed.

Cheliax

melee and bomb throwing really dont go that well together....


Thats what I was going to say, choose one or the Other Bombs or Melee, you have a limited number of feats so focusing will make the Alchemist much better. If you want to do both then both will be pretty meh...
The Vivisectionist Archetype gives sneak attack which gives melee quite a boost, feral mutagen gives you the extra natural attacks and meets one of your prerequisites for Master Chymist which is a very good choice for the Melee Alchemist.

The Bomb Tosser is mostly feat selection and bomb discoveries

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber

You can melee well or go ranged well, doing both would be too MAD.

Which is fair enough, even rangers have to make sacrifices to go switch-hitter.

My lvl 5 alchemist isn't especially optimised but he bombs, does decent archery, covers a lot of skills and is a solid secondary healer. The bombs re especially useful in adventures where you face large groups of foes, or when your GM likes swarms.

aleste the alchemist:

ALESTE EMBAR CR 4
Male Human (Taldan) Alchemist 5
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +9
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 15. . (+5 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 31 (5d8+5)
Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +3
Resist Poison Resistance +4
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Dagger +4 (1d4+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Paueliel Longbow, Composite (Str +1) +8 (1d8+2/20/x3) and
. . Acid Bomb +7 (3d6+3 Acid) and
. . Bomb +7 (3d6+3 Fire)
Special Attacks Acid Bomb, Bomb 3d6+3 (8/day) (DC 15), Explosive Bomb
Alchemist Spells Prepared (CL 5, 4 melee touch, 6 ranged touch):
2 (3/day) Cat's Grace (DC 15), Cure Moderate Wounds (x2) (DC 15)
1 (5/day) Shield (DC 14), Expeditious Retreat (DC 14), Longshot (DC 14), Polypurpose Panacea (DC 14), Targeted Bomb Admixture (DC 14)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Brew Potion, Extra Discovery, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Throw Anything
Traits Deft Dodger, Mathematical Prodigy: Knowledge (Engineering)
Skills Acrobatics +8, Craft (Alchemy) +11, Disable Device +11, Knowledge (Arcana) +10, Knowledge (Engineering) +9, Perception +9, Spellcraft +11, Stealth +8, Survival +9, Use Magic Device +9 Modifiers Alchemy +5
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ Fast Poisoning (Move Action) (Ex), Mutagen (DC 15) (Su), Poison Use, Precise Bombs (3 squares) (Su), Swift Alchemy (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, +1 Paueliel Longbow, Composite (Str +1), Dagger; Other Gear Backpack (empty), Bracers of Archery, Lesser, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Thieves' tools
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Acid Bomb (Su) When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict acid damage. Creatures that take a direct hit from an acid bomb take an additional 1d6 points of acid damage 1 round later.
Alchemy +5 (Su) +5 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Bomb 3d6+3 (8/day) (DC 15) (Su) Thrown Splash Weapon deals 3d6+3 fire damage.
Explosive Bomb (Su) The alchemist’s bombs now have a splash radius of 10 feet rather than 5 feet. Creatures that take a direct hit from an explosive bomb catch fire, taking 1d6 points of fire damage each round until the fire is extinguished. Extinguishing the flames is
Fast Poisoning (Move Action) (Ex) Apply poison to a weapon as a move action.
Mutagen (DC 15) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a Physical attribute, -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 natural armor for 10 minutes/level.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Poison Resistance +4 (Ex) +4 to save vs. Poison.
Poison Use You don't accidentally poison yourself with blades.
Precise Bombs (3 squares) (Su) Whenever the alchemist throws a bomb, he can select a number of squares equal to his Intelligence modifier that are not affected by the splash damage from his bombs.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Swift Alchemy (Ex) You can construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.

I'm sure the theorycrafters could pick it apart but he has been fun and effective at the table.


It doesn´t have to be Melee and ranged.To be honest any convincing build would be a surprise.


I have built a ratfolk mindchemist for an upcoming campaign, not sure how he'll fair but with rapid shot and point blank i have 2 - d6+5 bombs per round at my disposal at lvl 1!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sleet Storm wrote:
wellsmv wrote:
http://pathfinder.ogrehut.com/2010/07/alchemist-build-guide/
Already know that, and wasn´t too impressed.

Really? Really?

A touch attack splash damage ability that deals energy damage is not impressive?

Does being ten times better than a rogue at nearly everything unimpressive?

Osirion

Amy is solid. There's more that can be done with it but its really, really solid as is.

You can do some pretty horrible things with this build + skinsend/marionette possession.


GeraintElberion wrote:

You can melee well or go ranged well, doing both would be too MAD.

Which is fair enough, even rangers have to make sacrifices to go switch-hitter.

My lvl 5 alchemist isn't especially optimised but he bombs, does decent archery, covers a lot of skills and is a solid secondary healer. The bombs re especially useful in adventures where you face large groups of foes, or when your GM likes swarms.

** spoiler omitted **...

Thats an ok build but not quiet what I looked for. Even a Bard could be overall better in Combat.


TarkXT wrote:
Sleet Storm wrote:
wellsmv wrote:
http://pathfinder.ogrehut.com/2010/07/alchemist-build-guide/
Already know that, and wasn´t too impressed.

Really? Really?

1.)A touch attack splash damage ability that deals energy damage is not impressive?

2.)Does being ten times better than a rogue at nearly everything unimpressive?

1.)Uuuuhm,...no.Not as it stands.

2.) Could you specify this,because I don´t see it.

Silver Crusade

Being able to deal 1d6 per odd level + twice Intelligence modifier on a hit against Touch AC is supposed to be unimpressive ? Having full Sneak Attack progression plus spellcasting-like abilities and a mutagenic buff with three natural attacks is bad ?
It seems like we'd better know what you consider "impressive" before we post any build.


Mutagens last long enough, they aren't that bad. Once you get a few levels in, it lasts a decent enough time. And in the worst case, it's worth a standard action (it's a +4 bonus, man!) to wait until combat to consume it if it doesn't last long enough to do beforehand. And the 1 hour creation time isn't a big deal, either, as there are plenty of instances where you can get an hour to make a new mutagen.

The only time it really becomes a problem, is if your party has some 1-10 minute per level buffs ticking down, in which case it becomes difficult to convince everyone to wait for you to change your STR mutagen for a CON mutagen, or whatever. But that just means you gotta be careful with timing, no different from a wizard choosing when to cast their prepared spells. I think there's a discovery available later on down the line to alleviate that, but I don't quite remember ATM.


Sleet Storm wrote:

....One that can Melee and throw Bombs if possible.I thought I understood the Alchemist until recently but right now it my builds just look like poor excuses for a Druid, Mutagen is much weaker than Wildshape and the duration is irrationaly short, and then there is the 1hour creation time wich makes it pretty much a once per day thing.

Bombs are not very powerful,you get very few of them and obviously Pathfinder does not allow you to Quickdraw Acid Flasks,so I´m a little confused what to do with the Alchemist.

Sure Smoke Bombs are cool and pretty decent Battlefield Control ,but that can´t be all.

So where is the Edge on the Alchemist,.... I´m looking forward to be enlightened:)

Preservationist is a good specialization for an alchemist (replaces poison stuff with the ability to make summon nature's ally extracts. Any way you slice it, tossing pokeballs filled with t-rexes, elementals, and storm giants is pretty cool.

If you want to chuck bombs AND melee a lot, I would suggest 14, 14, 12, 14, 12, 7 as your 15 point array. This is before racial modifiers. When I make alchemists, I prefer to pump Intelligence prime however, because I think there are better means of meleeing than alchemists (and as a higher level preservationist you literally produce meat shields).

For a dedicated Preservationist, I would suggest the following array. 7, 14, 14, 16, 13, 7, and put your racial bump into Intelligence. The low strength isn't an issue since you'll only be wearing your clothes and carrying your potions and stuff. Later you can get a continuous ant haul item or something, or use an extract occasionally.

The idea with this build is quite simple. At low levels you will use bombs and alchemical items to do sustained damage (x+4 splash damage). At 2nd level, you get summon nature's ally I as an extract, but it's not super useful yet. Continue on being a bomber alchemist for a little longer.

At 5th level your extracts will have very usable durations and you get summon nature's ally II as an extract. Now it's more useful at producing minions. Summon nature's ally I is also good for tripping traps. At this level, you are now a bomber alchemist who can add more meat shields. Recommended creatures are giant worker ants and small elementals (negative energy elementals and lightning elementals are a good bet).

At 8th level, you get summon nature's ally IV, and from this level on you are in business. You can summon things like Tigers, Medium Elementals, and Grizzly Bears, or 1d3 Aurochs, or flood the field with 1d4+1 worker ants or small elementals. In addition, you're still producing good bombs, and if you've been raising your Intelligence, the saving throw DCs and static damage of your bombs will be improving, and you can begin getting nice battlefield control options.

You can even take the discovery allowing other people to use your extracts to quickly conjure a ton of meat shields, by passing around your extracts to your party and letting them toss them all in the first round.

I think this is a pretty strait-forward, versatile build, that doesn't rely on high ability scores all over the place, and sets you up to be a good team player. The summons reduce the need to be a gish, since you will be bombing and blasting. If you use elementals, you can choose elementals who are immune to your bombs so you can blast away while they are fighting.


Maxximilius wrote:

Being able to deal 1d6 per odd level + twice Intelligence modifier on a hit against Touch AC is supposed to be unimpressive ? Having full Sneak Attack progression plus spellcasting-like abilities and a mutagenic buff with three natural attacks is bad ?

It seems like we'd better know what you consider "impressive" before we post any build.

Just post a Build and I will tell you if I´m impressed:)

And yes Bombs are not the Bomb, at least not for Damage purposes.


Stazamos wrote:

Mutagens last long enough, they aren't that bad. Once you get a few levels in, it lasts a decent enough time. And in the worst case, it's worth a standard action (it's a +4 bonus, man!) to wait until combat to consume it if it doesn't last long enough to do beforehand. And the 1 hour creation time isn't a big deal, either, as there are plenty of instances where you can get an hour to make a new mutagen.

The only time it really becomes a problem, is if your party has some 1-10 minute per level buffs ticking down, in which case it becomes difficult to convince everyone to wait for you to change your STR mutagen for a CON mutagen, or whatever. But that just means you gotta be careful with timing, no different from a wizard choosing when to cast their prepared spells. I think there's a discovery available later on down the line to alleviate that, but I don't quite remember ATM.

I disagree ,the restrictions on Mutagen ruin it for me ,its just not accesible enough to lean on.Compare it to any similar ability(Rage,Inspire Courage,Wildshape,especially Wildshape) and you will see that mutagen takes the Backseat.

Sczarni

Keltoi wrote:

I have built a ratfolk mindchemist for an upcoming campaign, not sure how he'll fair but with rapid shot and point blank i have 2 - d6+5 bombs per round at my disposal at lvl 1!

You can't do this at level 1...bombs require a standard action not an attack action. You by RAW can't pull this off until level 8 when you can get Fast Bombs.

Osirion

There is no such thing as an attack action.


Sleet Storm wrote:


2.) Could you specify this,because I don´t see it.

K.

Berry here regularly rolls perception checks in the thirties after alchemically allocating an elixir of perception.

With her infusions she's basically passing out things like bark skin, shield, and other spells otherwise unavailable to her group and gives them things to focus on other than buffing too much. She can also make healing potions and pass those out or make monstrous heal checks to deal with problems the cleric

Since she's not level 8 (and therefore can't multibomb anyway) the move action to draw an alchemists fire is hardly a bother and having the continuous damage to drop on a caster to force concentration checks is handy.

Berry is not out to deal tons of damage. Between a wildshaping druid, and a TWF fighter I've little need or inclination. The point is I didn't build her t do damage as it was not required I did build her for battlefield control and skill monkeying.

If I wanted damage I can grab things like deadly aim (which applies to bombs too).

Next on our list is Mumbata from my skull and shackles game sporting your average vivisectionist build. With mutagen running he has as much strength as the groups barbarian for longer and punches way harder than a monk of equivalent level. Without armor and with mutagen he has a 13 ac. If he gets some decent armor and decides perhaps to make use of the shield extract 21 ac is certainly in grasp.

So yes, Mumbata a naked unarmed Mwangi not even super optimized could probably could take apart a number of encounters without much trouble especially if he works in conjunction with the party barbarian because teamwork is overpowered.

This is at level 1.

So what about bombers?

Bomber's are trickier and I have yet to see or try to play one myself so I've little to show you beyond berry whose more concerned wiht battlefield control and mook smashing than raw power.

The issue you're having is that you do not see the class as a whole and are only looking at individual abilities rather than seeing how they interact. Alchemists are a very strong class (OP according to some, now where's Cheapy when you need him...).


It should be noted that Berry started at level 5 with lvl2 wealth while mumbata started with next to nothing. Given more equipment both could exceed everything listed above.

Osirion

Skinsend/Marionette Posession stuff


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The build Berry was referring to... I have no problems with most alchemists. Just certain builds are "wheeeeeeeeeee".

The infusion discovery hasn't really been mentioned yet, which I find odd. In this game, personal range spells are generally more powerful than other spells of their level. The reason for this is that they only work on known classes: the ones that get them. But the Infusion discovery? It tears that assumption asunder. You can give your Infusions to your allies before battles so you can buff them using their actions. Give the fighter an infusion of Enlarge Person, and have them drink it so you have your actions left. Or Shield. I'm sure Slashy McTwhohandedStabby will love +4 to AC. Or Disguise Self to help someone out who really needs to be disguised. Or true strike when the archer needs to make that shot.

Or maybe even Beast Shape/Monstrous Physique.

They're fun and versatile. Leave a number of your extract slots empty, and then just fill them as needed. You only need 1 minute to do so.

And in most of the adventures I've played in, we were able to spare an hour of time between combats if necessary. And eventually, due to the duration, even 30 minutes between fights is fine. It's probably the strongest class ability they have. It's weird to think of a party not allowing them to remake it assuming nothing pressing will happen.


Cheapy wrote:

The build Berry was referring to... I have no problems with most alchemists. Just certain builds are "wheeeeeeeeeee".

The infusion discovery hasn't really been mentioned yet, which I find odd. In this game, personal range spells are generally more powerful than other spells of their level. The reason for this is that they only work on known classes: the ones that get them. But the Infusion discovery? It tears that assumption asunder. You can give your Infusions to your allies before battles so you can buff them using their actions. Give the fighter an infusion of Enlarge Person, and have them drink it so you have your actions left. Or Shield. I'm sure Slashy McTwhohandedStabby will love +4 to AC. Or Disguise Self to help someone out who really needs to be disguised. Or true strike when the archer needs to make that shot.

Or maybe even Beast Shape/Monstrous Physique.

They're fun and versatile. Leave a number of your extract slots empty, and then just fill them as needed. You only need 1 minute to do so.

And in most of the adventures I've played in, we were able to spare an hour of time between combats if necessary. And eventually, due to the duration, even 30 minutes between fights is fine. It's probably the strongest class ability they have. It's weird to think of a party not allowing them to remake it assuming nothing pressing will happen.

No offense but this build is an abomination:P

And beyond that the DPR on this Dude isn´t even that amazing,take away his 20th level GMF Potion(how did he get that in the first place),and balance out his stats and he looks much more reasonable.A Magus or Summoner could do the same but much more elegantly.

PS:To prevent missunderstandings I have to say that I´m not looking for a DPR monster like the one Cheapy posted nor do I seek a build that can do everything better than anyone else.

All I want Is one reasonable build that can utilize the abilities of the Class as well as holding his own in a fight,it does not have to do tons of Damage per round but a reasonable amount( for me that would be about 60-70 at 10th level) reliably and sustainable without using Magic Items that he shouldn´t have at that level.


Sleet Storm wrote:

No offense but this build is an abomination:P

And beyond that the DPR on this Dude isn´t even that amazing,take away his 20th level GMF Potion(how did he get that in the first place),and balance out his stats and he looks much more reasonable.A Magus or Summoner could do the same but much more elegantly.

PS:To prevent missunderstandings I have to say that I´m not looking for a DPR monster like the one Cheapy posted nor do I...

I think the problem comes down to you having a problem with the class instead of anything actually wrong with the class, or lack of builds.


If you have time in between adventures even if it is just in game then infuse mutagen is handy and if memory serves can be used with cognigens so you can take your time and craft 6+ mutagens/cognigens during down time and have them ready to use at a moments notice. Though this can get expensive depending on the campaign.

There is a good melee bomber archetype on the web somewhere... though it might be unofficial. Either way an alchemist seems meant to be a support class essentially. I do know that they make good second line combatants when built using the grenadier(I believe) archetype alongside a reach weapon.

Either way beastmorph/vivisectonist is the best melee based alchemist I have seen.

Edit: 60-70 damage!? For an alchemist dude you are looking at the wrong class. Heck most melee optimized build have a hard time with that unless it is against a specific foe. Like an undead slaying Paladin build.


Doggan wrote:
Sleet Storm wrote:

No offense but this build is an abomination:P

And beyond that the DPR on this Dude isn´t even that amazing,take away his 20th level GMF Potion(how did he get that in the first place),and balance out his stats and he looks much more reasonable.A Magus or Summoner could do the same but much more elegantly.

PS:To prevent missunderstandings I have to say that I´m not looking for a DPR monster like the one Cheapy posted nor do I...

I think the problem comes down to you having a problem with the class instead of anything actually wrong with the class, or lack of builds.

Well haven´t seen that many builds here yet;I count two.

But you are right I do have a Problem with this Class,I think the abilities are cool and flavourful but it just doesn´t come together right.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well I haven't quite seen what you expect out of the builds either...you have to give us a direction. If you try and make a rounded out character in any class you are going to mediocre across the board. If you want to be melee we can make that happen. If you want to be ranged we can make that happen. If you want to be the face we can make that happen. If you want to be magical we can make that happen. See what I am getting at? Give us a direction. Say, "I want to see a DPR build that focuses on melee" or "I want to see a battlefield control Alchemist", so we have some kind of a direction here.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Sleet Storm wrote:
Doggan wrote:
Sleet Storm wrote:

No offense but this build is an abomination:P

And beyond that the DPR on this Dude isn´t even that amazing,take away his 20th level GMF Potion(how did he get that in the first place),and balance out his stats and he looks much more reasonable.A Magus or Summoner could do the same but much more elegantly.

PS:To prevent missunderstandings I have to say that I´m not looking for a DPR monster like the one Cheapy posted nor do I...

I think the problem comes down to you having a problem with the class instead of anything actually wrong with the class, or lack of builds.

Well haven´t seen that many builds here yet;I count two.

But you are right I do have a Problem with this Class,I think the abilities are cool and flavourful but it just doesn´t come together right.

I am afraid there's nothing that can be done for you then. A literal pile of information has been dumped in your lap and rather than consider it you flippantly brush it off. A thorough guide, a build, several forum posts illustrating some rather icky but effective tricks and a couple of actual characters have been pushed in front of you by people far more knowledgeable about the class than I.

You have given no indication onto what "impressive" is to you. Obviously, to some of us, a character with 6th level spellcasting, great skill choice, a choice of rogue's sneak attacks or scaling bombs, a number of discoviees that do things like grant you flight, tricks to add to your bombs, a familiar, the ability to pass people "personal" target spells, pounce, poison resistance, brew potion for free, poison immunity, etc. etc. etc. are more than we could ever ask for.

Yes the alchemist is a thick class that can be built many different ways in many different flavors.

In the end you have given no goals and have made no indication that you care to. Until you do set some standards the best we can do is tell you to actually play the class and sift through the information to find something that you find impressive. No one build can express the full volume of the classes capabilities. It is just that versatile.


Berry Peelyblossom wrote:
If I wanted damage I can grab things like deadly aim (which applies to bombs too).

No, actually, it doesn't:

Deadly Aim, p.121 wrote:
The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

(Firearms are an exception to this no touch attack rule because they are explicitly spelled out as such)

Sleet Storm wrote:
I disagree ,the restrictions on Mutagen ruin it for me ,its just not accesible enough to lean on.Compare it to any similar ability(Rage,Inspire Courage,Wildshape,especially Wildshape) and you will see that mutagen takes the Backseat.

Pray tell, how does an ability buff that also increases AC, lasts tens of minutes as opposed to rounds, and is renewable as many as 23 times per day (if one leaves time to use it) at all take a backseat to Rage or Inspire Courage? What restrictions can you possibly be talking about?


Ashiel wrote:
Sleet Storm wrote:

....One that can Melee and throw Bombs if possible.I thought I understood the Alchemist until recently but right now it my builds just look like poor excuses for a Druid, Mutagen is much weaker than Wildshape and the duration is irrationaly short, and then there is the 1hour creation time wich makes it pretty much a once per day thing.

Bombs are not very powerful,you get very few of them and obviously Pathfinder does not allow you to Quickdraw Acid Flasks,so I´m a little confused what to do with the Alchemist.

Sure Smoke Bombs are cool and pretty decent Battlefield Control ,but that can´t be all.

So where is the Edge on the Alchemist,.... I´m looking forward to be enlightened:)

Preservationist is a good specialization for an alchemist (replaces poison stuff with the ability to make summon nature's ally extracts. Any way you slice it, tossing pokeballs filled with t-rexes, elementals, and storm giants is pretty cool.

If you want to chuck bombs AND melee a lot, I would suggest 14, 14, 12, 14, 12, 7 as your 15 point array. This is before racial modifiers. When I make alchemists, I prefer to pump Intelligence prime however, because I think there are better means of meleeing than alchemists (and as a higher level preservationist you literally produce meat shields).

For a dedicated Preservationist, I would suggest the following array. 7, 14, 14, 16, 13, 7, and put your racial bump into Intelligence. The low strength isn't an issue since you'll only be wearing your clothes and carrying your potions and stuff. Later you can get a continuous ant haul item or something, or use an extract occasionally.

The idea with this build is quite simple. At low levels you will use bombs and alchemical items to do sustained damage (x+4 splash damage). At 2nd level, you get summon nature's ally I as an extract, but it's not super useful yet. Continue on being a bomber alchemist for a little longer.

At 5th level your extracts will have very usable durations...

I was thinking preservationist for melee from the summons and bombs.

Cheliax

My son has a lvl 6 alchemist (Grenadier)..

overall they are a bit overpowered but limited in scope.
If you want to do lots of bombs this is the way to go..

the selection of discoveries is key to a build however...


Shadowdweller wrote:
Berry Peelyblossom wrote:
If I wanted damage I can grab things like deadly aim (which applies to bombs too).

No, actually, it doesn't:

Deadly Aim, p.121 wrote:
The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

(Firearms are an exception to this no touch attack rule because they are explicitly spelled out as such)

Ah well. Strange that. Still point blank shot applies as does nearly everything else in one form or another (yay alchemical allocation good hope!). Sad that's excluded but what can you do.

Cheliax

though my son is already plotting to use delayed bomb at lvl 8..

leave a stack of 10 delayed bombs...

wait for BBEG to approach... toss bomb at stack... boom !

10*4d6+5.. min= 90 max= 290 plus splash damage and such....


@several people

I haven´t set any guidelines because I don´t know what flys with the Alchemist.I would like to see some decent damage(melee,ranged or whatever) and versatility.
Thats it.


Ashiel wrote:

Preservationist is a good specialization for an alchemist (replaces poison stuff with the ability to make summon nature's ally extracts. Any way you slice it, tossing pokeballs filled with t-rexes, elementals, and storm giants is pretty cool.

ashiel i hate you so much, now i have to play this character.

i hope you are happy with your self!!


well, let me try (if the bestmorph/vivisectionist isn't versatile enough for you)
mindchemist/psychonaut
have plenty of int, throw one bomb a round (so you will never run out).
As your bomb damage alone is a bit on the weak side, make up with discoveries.
Incendiary cloud seems like a winner for later.
greater cognatogen of course
eternal potion (improved invisibility)
dispelling bomb
and infusion of course

this should be plenty versatile and will shine once you got lvl 5 spells with moment of prescience and some pearls of power to back that up. But it's hard to do better DPS than the straight mad bomber or the beastmorph vivisectionist. (and what versatility do you expect, they still deliver all the spells you might need)


Richard Leonhart wrote:

well, let me try (if the bestmorph/vivisectionist isn't versatile enough for you)

mindchemist/psychonaut
have plenty of int, throw one bomb a round (so you will never run out).
As your bomb damage alone is a bit on the weak side, make up with discoveries.
Incendiary cloud seems like a winner for later.
greater cognatogen of course
eternal potion (improved invisibility)
dispelling bomb
and infusion of course

this should be plenty versatile and will shine once you got lvl 5 spells with moment of prescience and some pearls of power to back that up. But it's hard to do better DPS than the straight mad bomber or the beastmorph vivisectionist. (and what versatility do you expect, they still deliver all the spells you might need)

I am afraid that pearls of power do not work with extracts sir as they are not technically spells.


+1 to Tarkxt's comment that there is little more that can persuade you. I've just placed an Alchemist (Mindchemist)into my group to help out our rather small party, and I must say he's working out rather well. The party (being small) are taking things slow, always scouting and planning ahead if possible.

At the moment my guy can:
- Take the place of a rogue by scouting, finding/disabling traps (No Trapfinding, but we have a plan for Magic Traps in the future), and any other rogue skill as needed.
- Blast/Debuff with his Bombs, even when his Melee-Focused Companion have entered the fray (Go Precise Bombs!)
- Be the Knowledge monkey! By taking a rank in each of the Knowledge skills his Mindchemist ability to add twice his intelligence bonus to those checks is awesome at low levels. By using his combined knowledge of Alchemy, Engineering and Disable Device he has become a veritable Demolitions expert, raizing entire enemy structures to the ground.
- Alchemical Allocation! The class is worth playing for that extract alone! By handing one of those plus a potion of Glibness to my Charisma focused party member we can convince anyone of practically anything no matter how absurd! This can work with any potion or Elixer. As our potion collections grow, so shall our range of tactics.
- Buffing. If there is an Alchemist out there that doesn't take Infusion then I want to know about it. As we like to prepare in advance, the Buffs he can give out can turn our encounters into cakewalks.

We have only just made it to 5th level and I have scarcely begun to scratch the surface of this class.

Alchemists are, in my opinion, best used with well meshed parties that work together and plan ahead, rather than a collection of DPR soloists whose opion of tactics is "Kick in the door! CHARGE!"

Overall opinions of the class? Nifty! A LOT of fun toys! While lacking the power of a full caster, the Alchemist can do many things that they cannot, while having different restrictions. All in all, a good compromise between a Caster and Rogue, an excellent alternative to the Arcane Trickster, and far more rounded.


@TarkXT
Sir, as you've called me sir, I took time to look up where I read different. So here straight from James Jacobs fingers, in your brain:

James Jacobs wrote:


The alchemist's extracts are not called spells because they are cast differently enough from spells to justify not calling them spells. In fact, a very early build had them labeled exactly that—as spells—but calling them spells kept messing with the flavor of the class and kept forcing us to put extra wordage in there... stuff like, "Even though the alchemist casts spells, he doesn't say magic words" and so on.

To a certain extent... using the word "extract" instead of "spell" is purely flavorful. And it's IMPORTANT flavor.

So as you might note, it seems intended that pearls of powers do work with extracts.

Unfortunatly this hasn't been mentioned in a FAQ.
Good night to you, sir.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Potio Venefirous
Male Human (Taldan) Alchemist 10
N Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15. . (+5 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 65 (10d8+20)
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +4
Resist Poison Resistance +4
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Sickle +8/+3 (1d6/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Light Crossbow +10(11)/+5(6) (1d8+1(2)/19-20/x2) and
. . Bomb +9(10) (5d4+5(6) Fire) 10(11) fire splash
Special Attacks Bomb 5d4+5(6) (15/day) (DC 20), Delayed Bomb, Sticky Poison
Alchemist Spells Prepared
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +7; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Brew Potion, Prodigy(craft[Alchemy]), Skill Focus(craft[Alchemy]),Point Blank Shot, Master Alchemist, Implant Bomb, Precise Shot, Throw Anything, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)
Traits Potent Concoctions(Drow Poison, Purple Wyrm Poison), Artistic Dilettante(craft[alchemy])
Skills Acrobatics +7, Bluff +11, Craft (Alchemy) +44(51), Heal +14, Perception +14, Profession (Chef) +16, Sleight of Hand +15, Spellcraft +18, Stealth +10, Use Magic Device +20
Languages Abyssal, Infernal, Common, Draconic, Elven, ...
SQ Fast Poisoning (Move Action) (Ex), Mutagen (DC 20) (Su), Poison Use, Precise Bombs (5 squares) (Su), Swift Alchemy (Ex), Rebirth
Combat Gear +1 Mithral Shirt, +1 Light Crossbow, Mwk Sickle; Other Gear Alchemy Lab, 10 Purple Wyrm Poison DC 25, 1d3 STR 1/rd for 6 rds, 2 saves (concentrated: DC 27, 1d3 STR 1/rd for 9 rds), 5 Drow Poison DC 14, unconscious 1 min/ 2d4 hours 1/min for 2 mins(concentrated DC 16, unconscious 1 min/2d4 hours 1 min for 3 mins)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Alchemy +10 (Su) +10 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Bomb 5d4+5 (15/day) (DC 20) (Su) Thrown Splash Weapon deals 5d4+5 fire damage.
Fast Poisoning (Move Action) (Ex) Apply poison to a weapon as a move action.
Mutagen (DC 20) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a Physical attribute, -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 natural armor for 10 minutes/level.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Poison Resistance +4 (Ex) +4 to save vs. Poison.
Poison Use You don't accidentally poison yourself with blades.
Precise Bombs (5 squares) (Su) Whenever the alchemist throws a bomb, he can select a number of squares equal to his Intelligence modifier that are not affected by the splash damage from his bombs.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Swift Alchemy (Ex) You can construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.
Clone A clone master can prepare a clone of himself that awakens if he is slain. Creating the clone costs 5,000 gp, takes 1 week of work, and requires 3 additional weeks for the clone to grow to maturity. If he dies, the clone awakens as if the alchemist had used the clone spell on himself. He can have one inert of himself at a time. Unused clones created by a clone master do not rot.
Focused Study Human Alternate Racial Trait Skill Focus (Craft[Alchemy])@ lvl 1, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) @ lvl 8
Heart of the Fields Human Alternate Racial Trait Craft(Alchemy) +1/2 character lvl (5)

Ok 1: I didn't really outfit this guy, 2: I didn't bother with his extracts known. I didn't calculate in the effect of his mutagen but I'll let you know now that it will affect his dex boosting his odds to hit at range. You may look and think low damage potential but the key here is realizing that it only takes him 2 days to craft 5 vials of his purple wyrm poison, and as almost no one is making that save, he will be dealing an avg. of 18 points of str damage to anyone he hits, so he only has to hit someone once and 9 rounds later, or in just under a minute they will be unconscious or at the least immobile. And while his bombs do less damage, with delayed bomb and implant bomb he can leave a final surprise for anyone who successfully kills him, then jump into his clone, spend 2 weeks removing those pesky negative levels and do it all over again. With poison conversion he can turn that purple wyrm poison into an inhalant, thus effecting a 10ft by 10ft square with each vial, vials which he can freely pass to all his friends. Forced into melee, no prob sticky poison means he gets can poison up to five opponents per vial of poison. And he's crafting them all himself in a matter of days, not weeks, so significantly reduced costs (1/3) and easy to acquire/stock up on.

Side note, he's able to do 90% of this at level 6

Andoran RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Level 10 Build:

Vivisectionist / Beastmorph

You can get pounce whenever your mutagen is active. Not too shabby. You have sneak attack. With the right feats you can extend it a long time and without the intervention of allies.

Feats:
WF Claws, Dazzling Display, Shattered Defenses, Enforcer, Blundegoner, Power Attack

Mutagen: Feral, etc

You generate your own sneak attacks.

Round 1:
Bite is first. If you hit it, roll to demoralize. Your attack is non-lethal but gets sneak attack (if you qualify) and no penalties due to bludegoner. If either claw hits, shattered defenses activates and extnds into the next round.

Round 2+

As long as they remain shaken, any claw hit extends the flat footed condition. If they cease to be shaken (because you suck at intimidate) another bludgeoning bite gives a free action to demoralize.

At level 13 you use Delayed Consumption to turn into something with many attacks and make this even more effective (and give yourself a stacking str and con boost). Calikang from the Inner Sea Guide is particularly nice for its 6 arms.

Osirion

Sleetstorm, after all the posts that have been made on alchemist I hope you feel your question has been answered.

If you feel it hasn't then... well could say uncomplimentary things about you but given my mental state at the minute I'm holding back massively for my own benefit ("troll" would be the least of how I feel)


I've played a barbarian alchemist in PFS for awhile now, it does a good enough job in that as both melee and ranged. +4 rage, +4 mutagen +4 bull's strength = +12 bonus, with 2 of those bonus being easily done pre kick down the door. I made the mistake of going with 10 strength, but i buff to 22, which is decent enough for when I need to melee. I didn't really plan the build so I didn't make room for power attack, but I do some decent damage when i enlarge due to all the feral mutagen attacks.

Most of my feats and ability was spent on ranged combat, so precise, point blank, rapid fire and fast bombs add up to a fair number of attacks, even more under haste. 4d6+5 points of damage and d6 ongoing burn is nice, even nicer when you get 4 attacks a round with it (only 3 times a day, but that is a decent nova attack considering the good min damage from splash). Back up weapon is only a +1 fiery bow, but 4 attacks with it is rather powerful (not as good as a dedicated archer could be, but very respectable, and I don't even have a str bonus bow) Unless you are having more than 3-4 difficult encounters a day this build has enough staying power IMHO for typical adventuring.

If you want to abuse archetypes see if you can make the druken brute move action drinks work with extracts (I don't see why not), being able buff multiple times in a round seems good, as does drinking to prolong rage.


so far im playing a mindchemist 8 in carrion crown and it works perfectly mixing explosive bombs and entangling bombs, sticking the BBEG to the floor is a strategy that makes my GM hate me :P (specially when all the melee in my party have gang up and outflank)


ossian666 wrote:
Keltoi wrote:

I have built a ratfolk mindchemist for an upcoming campaign, not sure how he'll fair but with rapid shot and point blank i have 2 - d6+5 bombs per round at my disposal at lvl 1!

You can't do this at level 1...bombs require a standard action not an attack action. You by RAW can't pull this off until level 8 when you can get Fast Bombs.

missed the part about requiring fast bombs,,Thanks!..now to find a new feat...


keep the rapid shot, its still good for archery, which will be your "out of bombs" option for much of your adventuring time.


Keltoi wrote:
ossian666 wrote:
Keltoi wrote:

I have built a ratfolk mindchemist for an upcoming campaign, not sure how he'll fair but with rapid shot and point blank i have 2 - d6+5 bombs per round at my disposal at lvl 1!

You can't do this at level 1...bombs require a standard action not an attack action. You by RAW can't pull this off until level 8 when you can get Fast Bombs.
missed the part about requiring fast bombs,,Thanks!..now to find a new feat...

actually you can only toss bombs for every attack you get from BAB, extra attacks from feats dont apply to that class feature.


John Spalding wrote:

Level 10 Build:

Vivisectionist / Beastmorph

You can get pounce whenever your mutagen is active. Not too shabby. You have sneak attack. With the right feats you can extend it a long time and without the intervention of allies.

Feats:
WF Claws, Dazzling Display, Shattered Defenses, Enforcer, Blundegoner, Power Attack

Mutagen: Feral, etc

You generate your own sneak attacks.

Round 1:
Bite is first. If you hit it, roll to demoralize. Your attack is non-lethal but gets sneak attack (if you qualify) and no penalties due to bludegoner. If either claw hits, shattered defenses activates and extnds into the next round.

Round 2+

As long as they remain shaken, any claw hit extends the flat footed condition. If they cease to be shaken (because you suck at intimidate) another bludgeoning bite gives a free action to demoralize.

At level 13 you use Delayed Consumption to turn into something with many attacks and make this even more effective (and give yourself a stacking str and con boost). Calikang from the Inner Sea Guide is particularly nice for its 6 arms.

Ok this one is a little scary especially if you take it to 20th and pick up grand mutagen and 4 levels of rogue(scout).

Now you can Charge, Pounce for 7 attacks each with a 10d6 sneak attack. and the mutagen lasts for 16 hours per day.

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