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RPG Superstar 2015

Animate Dead suggestion


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge *****

so - I have a 6th lvl Undead Lord of Urgathoa / 1st lvl Fighter

and recenty after looking deeply into the guide and the forum I was able to confirm that I need Onyx listed on my Character Sheet in order to cast the spell

the question ... is how much on each Gem, and I am looking for suggestions

my initial thought was a 250(10HD) a 500(20 HD) a 750(30 HD) and a 1000(40 HD)

and yes at my current level with desecrate I can animate 40 HD worth of undead

whats your guys suggestions

The Exchange ****

LOL! this thread is going to be some fireworks....

Shadow Lodge *****

Im not interested in the fireworks... Im interested in the suggested ammounts of spell components

Scarab Sages *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

How much the Gem cost is in the Spell.

an onyx gem worth at least 50 gp per HD of the undead to be created

So a 10 HD = 500gp

Am I missing something?

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

She wants to carry multiple gems at once, of different values, so she doesn't waste resources.

Wouldn't want to have the opportunity to get a super-awesome undead but have too small of a gem; or have to choose between blowing a super-expensive gem on a less impressive corpse or not casting it at all.

At least, that's how the question sounds to me.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington , Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015 aka WalterGM

You can purchase whatever "value" of Onyx that you'd like. So you can have some at each level of HD, just like you were thinking. Since you can spend however much you want on jewelry (and it is worth that much), you can do the same for the stones that go into the jewelry -- imo.

Liberty's Edge *****

Yeah, gems are essentially always available items.

So if you want to buy a 500gp piece of onyx, go for it. Just log it on your chronicle and character sheet.

And then treat it like a consumable. When you cast that spell, the appropriate piece of Onyx goes away.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Walter Sheppard wrote:
You can purchase whatever "value" of Onyx that you'd like. So you can have some at each level of HD, just like you were thinking. Since you can spend however much you want on jewelry (and it is worth that much), you can do the same for the stones that go into the jewelry -- imo.

I believe the question was for advice, not legality. I.e., what assortments will efficiently cover the bases?

Shadow Lodge *****

Animate Dead is 25/ HD ... and the description of the spell lists "an Onyx Gem worth 25/ HD) so it sounds to me like a single Gem

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington , Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015 aka WalterGM

Jiggy wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:
You can purchase whatever "value" of Onyx that you'd like. So you can have some at each level of HD, just like you were thinking. Since you can spend however much you want on jewelry (and it is worth that much), you can do the same for the stones that go into the jewelry -- imo.
I believe the question was for advice, not legality. I.e., what assortments will efficiently cover the bases?

Gotcha.

Aneska Dakrath wrote:


Animate Dead is 25/ HD ... and the description of the spell lists "an Onyx Gem worth 25/ HD) so it sounds to me like a single Gem

The spell states:

"V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)," emphasis mine.
So yes, a single gem. Seems like hedging your bets and having various, increasing incremental levels is a sound approach.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Derailing a bit, but asking because related. Do undead animated by Animate Dead count towards the PFS 1 combat pet per character rule? So although you can animate 40HD of undead, you can only have a single one around with you?

We had this come up in a game 2 weeks ago. We ruled it as so.

Liberty's Edge *****

No. Just as someone who is a Master Summoner or a Druid who loves Summon Nature's Ally, can flood the field with summoned critters.

Animate Dead isn't a ton different from Summon Monster or Nature's Ally.

Although, as a GM, you can limit this if it is slowing the game down or hogging the spotlight too much.

*

I don't think you're going to have the opportunity to create more than 20 HD of undead early in the scenario, and even that will be unusual just because humanoids (1HD) and undead are so very common. I suspect your best bet will be animals and magical beasts.

I think you're going to have to buy them at the beginning of the scenario based on the description of what you're likely to face. Picking up a big fat onyx might be a good idea if there is some kind of solid information ahead of time.

Scarab Sages *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Doh, Animate Dead, I was looking at the price for Create Undead.


I edited this because I just saw the Undead Lord archetype, and plan to make that as my character for PFS today. Can't wait to play it. Also, I would like it explained why skeletons created with animate dead do not carry on to the next campaign.

Liberty's Edge ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Edward Link wrote:
I edited this because I just saw the Undead Lord archetype, and plan to make that as my character for PFS today. Can't wait to play it. Also, I would like it explained why skeletons created with animate dead do not carry on to the next campaign.

Good luck with your Undead Lord, the odds strongly favor him having an aura of evil, even though he cannot, himself, actually be evil.

As to the skeletons created, it falls under the following PFS rule:

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, page 20 wrote:
Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC casts bless on the party and bless is still active when the scenario ends, the bless spell ends at the conclusion of the scenario. This includes spells with an instantaneous or permanent duration, such as continual flame, create undead, or fabricate.

Unfortunately, this includes Animate Dead and Masterwork Transformation.

However, good news for you on your Undead Lord. His Undead Companion will persist between modules, if you so desire.

One piece of advice: Undead Lords are in the grey areas of PFS, and there are going to be a plethora of PCs who they cannot, for one reason or another, adventure with. Have another PC available for you to use in those cases.

Some examples of PCs that would be difficult, if not impossible, to adventure with as an Undead Lord:
Clerics of Pharasma
Oathbound Paladins whose oath is against Undead
Paladins, in general
Clerics of Sarenrae

Things to remember:
Your Undead Companion will detect as evil.
Clerics of evil deities detect as evil, even if they themselves are not.
Clerics of evil deities channel Negative Energy, which either heals undead (for use with your Companion) or harms (most) living creatures.

Note that that is not necessarily a bad thing, but something to keep in mind when you decide to channel to hurt those living enemies. It does, however, make a fair to good Charisma, and Selective Channeling much mre useful, IMO, than for a Positive Channeling cleric.

Meet Gabe:
Gabe is the name of my own, now just turned 2nd level, Undead Lord Cleric of Zon-Kuthon, Dhampir by race,who uses his companion, now a bloody skeleton, to prevent damage to the rest of the party. He is not a front line fighter, so he tries to use his spells to aid the party.

"I'll use this wand on you people. If I go down, someone will need to use this wand on me. Do not use this wand on yourselves, in any case. Enjoy your day."


Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, page 20 wrote:
Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC casts bless on the party and bless is still active when the scenario ends, the bless spell ends at the conclusion of the scenario. This includes spells with an instantaneous or permanent duration, such as continual flame, create undead, or fabricate.

But my question to that ruling is why does it even exist? Isn't pathfinder society supposed to just be a huge campaign where people group together and do modules? So why do spells not persist when they say they are permanent?

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Thorkull

Edward Link wrote:
]But my question to that ruling is why does it even exist? Isn't pathfinder society supposed to just be a huge campaign where people group together and do modules? So why do spells not persist when they say they are permanent?

Because based on previous organized play campaigns hat allowed this sort o thing it:

1) puts an undue burden on the GM to double-check and verify all permanent effects are in line with campaign rules.
2) creates extra record-keeping and tracking in hat Ian's already much too similar to double-entry bookkeeping.
3) is too easily abused by unscrupulous players who are out to "win" the campaign rather than play it.

Simply put, the administrative effort to support and track custom permanent effects is just not worth it.


OK, well then i guess there's nothing I can do about it then. It doesn't seem like it would be all that hard to me. All you would need to do is have them make a sheet for the skeletons then have the GM sign the bottom of the character sheets at the end of the campaign. Its not hard considering you create the sheet the same way for the skeletons that you do for your undead companion as an Undead Lord.


Also, I have another question. Do player created constructs disappear?

Grand Lodge ** Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Edward Link wrote:
Also, I have another question. Do player created constructs disappear?

In principle, yes. How would you expect a player character could create a construct?

In certain circumstances a PC can have a construct created for her by an NPC and it then is permanent.


Well, if you look in the book its quite easy to make them, but not til later levels. So, when I can get my sorcerer up 10 more levels I can start making constructs? Ice golems and Wood golems are cheap to make. Especially considering how late game they become available to be made. Caster level 12th is a long way to go, so saving up 9500 gold for an ice golem or 8800 for a wood golem. 10 levels * 3 * 500 = 15000, and I know we're not aloud to hold more gold than we can carry weight so I'd convert them into gems til I reach the level I can construct the golem.

Grand Lodge ** Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Edward Link wrote:
Well, if you look in the book its quite easy to make them, but not til later levels.

Both an ice golem and a wood golem require Craft Construct. This is an item creation feat and also Bestiary content, so it's not legal for play.


Even item creation feats aren't legal? wow society is boring then.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Edward Link wrote:
Even item creation feats aren't legal? wow society is boring then.

If you call allowing material from over 80 sources boring, then yeah.

Dark Archive **** Star Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

I'll hold onto my assertion that "lack of certain item creation feats really cripples wizards".

I also understand why with the super-abstracted experience model and lack of TUs Mike and Mark feel this is a necessary step. (Investing multiple feats and reduced XP progression makes the WBL-curve-busting a class feature, not a bug).

Shadow Lodge *** Star Voter 2015

Edward Link wrote:
Even item creation feats aren't legal? wow society is boring then.

*cue church lady* Well. Isn't that special.

But seriously, if the most fun you have in Pathfinder is putting max ranks in Craft, taking all the item creation feats, and crafting your own mundane and magic items, then PFS isn't for you.

Personally, I prefer exploring ruins, fighting monsters, and taking their stuff.


*Mystic Lemur Response*
Exploring ruins, fighting monsters, and taking their stuff??? Have you no creativity that you have to take stuff off monsters? And about the Max ranks in craft bit? whats the harm of putting 1 point per level into craft? That would make it more interesting other than just looking for stuff off of things I killed. You guys took out a good part of Pathfinder. Being creative. Without that your just going around hacking and slashing. That to me is boring.

****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

You might try playing PFS a bit before you judge that. I enjoy crafting a great deal, but PFS is plenty of fun without it, and without the headaches/arguments/delays of dealing with everyone else doing it.

Dark Archive ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like the crafting aspect of normal Pathfinder, but PFS has something equally special: fame score.

If your fame is above a certain level, there is no guesswork about what equipment your character can have. That means I can plan ahead, and know exactly how my character will work based on the fame score he's likely to have at that level (with the assumption that I'll achieve probably 2/3 of the missions I get).

That means there's no situation where you've specialized in the falcata but the enemies keep dropping greataxes.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Edward Link wrote:
You guys took out a good part of Pathfinder. Being creative. Without that your just going around hacking and slashing. That to me is boring.

So the entirety of Pathfinder is composed of just two things: crafting, and hack-n-slash?

No wonder you're bored.

The Exchange ****

Jiggy wrote:
Edward Link wrote:
You guys took out a good part of Pathfinder. Being creative. Without that your just going around hacking and slashing. That to me is boring.

So the entirety of Pathfinder is composed of just two things: crafting, and not crafting?

No wonder you're bored.

fixed that for you Jiggy!

Shadow Lodge *** Star Voter 2015

Edward Link wrote:

*Mystic Lemur Response*

Exploring ruins, fighting monsters, and taking their stuff??? Have you no creativity that you have to take stuff off monsters? And about the Max ranks in craft bit? whats the harm of putting 1 point per level into craft? That would make it more interesting other than just looking for stuff off of things I killed. You guys took out a good part of Pathfinder. Being creative. Without that your just going around hacking and slashing. That to me is boring.

You're right. I am shamed by my un-creativity. I must now serve penance by crafting my own suit of masterwork full plate armor. With a Craft (Armor) check of +10, I can take 10 every week and have it completed in about 6 weeks! Then another two days to enchant it to +1 and I'm good to go! Finally, some real excitement!

I get that you enjoy the crafting rules, but it is hardly the most exciting or creative part of Pathfinder. For you to say that this is the whole reason you feel PFS is 'boring', and then tell me I'm uncreative because I tell you I like a different part of the game better? Words can't describe.


Hm... yea now that I read how I worded that, I must apologize. I do find that pathfinder society can be 'weird' at times. I just enjoy different things. I still wish that some of the rules would change. But seeing the posts above, doesn't look like you would consider change.


And no I dont think pathfinder is just about crafting, but I like that aspect of the game. Call it a personal preference. Hard to word this without someone picking just that one line out and saying something stupid like a few have, but meh. I've only played in two PFS campaigns so I'll take back the pathfinder society is boring part I said earlier, and I'll see about work arounds. So, is the skill craft itself banned from PFS? or just the item creation feats?

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber
Siris Khaal wrote:
And no I dont think pathfinder is just about crafting, but I like that aspect of the game. Call it a personal preference. Hard to word this without someone picking just that one line out and saying something stupid like a few have, but meh. I've only played in two PFS campaigns so I'll take back the pathfinder society is boring part I said earlier, and I'll see about work arounds. So, is the skill craft itself banned from PFS? or just the item creation feats?

You an have craft and you can earn money as a day job. You can even role play it instead of just rolling a dice.

It is the item creation that is banned. As a player I understand that it can limit what you can do. As GM this is just a must. There are already weird stuff coming up with everything allowed. If you can just create anything you like than you will get weird stuff appearing at the table. You can't then just disallow what some other GM allowed. And this will end up in chaos.

Slots for companions - oh I just create a custom item. Novel stuff - I just create it. Unfortunately it is the few who can't restrain themselves that make opening pandoras box a problem. It will help enjoyment of some but would likely destroy it for more.

It is a price to pay to have characters move from one GM to another one.


Thod wrote:
Siris Khaal wrote:
And no I dont think pathfinder is just about crafting, but I like that aspect of the game. Call it a personal preference. Hard to word this without someone picking just that one line out and saying something stupid like a few have, but meh. I've only played in two PFS campaigns so I'll take back the pathfinder society is boring part I said earlier, and I'll see about work arounds. So, is the skill craft itself banned from PFS? or just the item creation feats?

You an have craft and you can earn money as a day job. You can even role play it instead of just rolling a dice.

It is the item creation that is banned. As a player I understand that it can limit what you can do. As GM this is just a must. There are already weird stuff coming up with everything allowed. If you can just create anything you like than you will get weird stuff appearing at the table. You can't then just disallow what some other GM allowed. And this will end up in chaos.

Slots for companions - oh I just create a custom item. Novel stuff - I just create it. Unfortunately it is the few who can't restrain themselves that make opening pandoras box a problem. It will help enjoyment of some but would likely destroy it for more.

It is a price to pay to have characters move from one GM to another one.

Siris, just take a moment to try and look at it from the GM's perspective. Let's say you are GM'ing, you've never met me, and I sit down to play at your table for a PFS event, and hand you a character sheet full of magic items that you've never heard of, that I "crafted myself" that I swear some other GM okayed....

... would you look dubiously upon what I was handing you?

In order to prevent one GM needing a line-item veto on every ruling that a previous GM made, the PFS rules are structured in a way to make things as 'consistent' as possible. This does mean some of the more creative options are off limits.... because they have to be.

Just because you believe you can be trusted not to abuse it makes no difference, it would make an already difficult job of GMing these sessions downright nightmarish.


Now that you say it like that, I can see where your getting at. I was only looking at it from the player's perspective, my bad.


And to answer the question about if I were GM, I am going to make 2 assumptions, first that I'm gming for PFS, and two that pfs gms are sanctioned somehow. I would first check with the GM who allowed it, if he was not sanctioned then I would not allow any of the items if it was for PFS that is, but if it was a home game, I might say something happened that he was caught off guard and all of his possessions were stolen. I was playing in one home game the town guards arrested one of our strongest characters because our rogue rolled a 28 on the disguise check to disguise himself as the barbarian. Then he went into an alchemist shop and attempted to steal a family recipe potion for the thieves guild and failed. He managed to escape though, but the townguards came and arrested the barbarian, it was hilarious. Anyways, besides the point, things could always happen to that person and his items.

What would I do if the gm did that to me? Would I be upset? Yes, but all that means is that I need to find a way to get my status to what it used to be by working hard and remaking the lost items. Doing quests to remake the gold required to purchase the materials. Those are the things I enjoy. I do enjoy dungeon delving and quests, but the main thing I enjoy is the reason for my dungeon delving. Most of the items I find aren't really what I'm looking for, but I could always build what I wanted.

Dark Archive **** Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond

Majuba wrote:
You might try playing PFS a bit before you judge that. I enjoy crafting a great deal, but PFS is plenty of fun without it, and without the headaches/arguments/delays of dealing with everyone else doing it.

Amen to that. Item creation is something that PFS is much better without. Anyone that was around for the headaches of it in LG and it's predecessors will vouch for that.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Thorkull

I find myself saying this over and over in response to these sorts of "why can't we" questions.

It's been tried, in various forms, by other organized play campaigns. It's resulted in additional paperwork, tracking, errors, and abuse. The campaign management for Pathfinder Society has decided that the downsides aren't worth the upsides.

I miss being able to trade items and gold between players like we did in LC. I don't miss the item and gold fraud that some people indulged in.

I miss being able to craft my own magic items from LC. I don't miss the lines at conventions to do so.

I miss being able to take the Leadership feat, I don't miss players being turned away from tables because someone wanted to bring a cohort (it wasn't supposed to happen, but it did).

I miss the ability to craft magic items that LG provided, but I don't miss the extra form I had to fill out (or verify as a GM) every time I crafted something. Not to mention what it did to the time it took to perform a character audit when it became necessary.

In addition to all that, one of the limiting factors on magic item creation is the amount of time it takes to craft an item. Since we don't track time expended by the characters in this campaign, magic item creation would literally be unbalanced. We would have to change the campaign rules to add some time-tracking mechanism just to allow item crafting. There was apparently a lot of people who had issues with limiting play opportunities for characters in LG by the time units mechanic, so the creators of the Pathfinder Society campaign chose to leave that (or anything similar) out.

You can't please everyone.


  1. Get one huge chunk of onyx, a magnifying glass and merchant scales.
  2. Cut off pieces as large as you need them, and appraise the shards to determine their value. If you don't like the way the cut looks, cast Mending and try again until you got just the right valued piece.
  3. ...
  4. Profit! And undead people!


I see, thanks Jon, I didn't know about LC, haven't been playing it that long. Also, I've never been to a convention before. Also, people have been turned from tables because of cohorts? Why? Cohorts aren't extra players, they're like a Druid's animal companion. But you say that it wasn't supposed to happen but did so I guess some GMs saw it differently. Also, looking at all the stuff you listed... yea that sounds like a big headache. Alright man, I'll keep this kind of thing at home games then, and just enjoy PFS the way everyone else does.

Also, VRMH all I can say to that is one word. Nice.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Thorkull

Siris Khaal wrote:
Also, people have been turned from tables because of cohorts? Why? Cohorts aren't extra players, they're like a Druid's animal companion.

A second PC-class character is a long way from an AC in terms of capabilities and power.

ACs are basically dumb animals that know a few tricks. Cohorts have the intelligence of a player and the class features of a PC. You can't even begin to compare the two.

Shadow Lodge *** Star Voter 2015

Not to mention, it puts more of a burden on the GM, as the cohort is, by default, an NPC run by the GM.

Part of the problem with Leadership, IME, is PCs running the cohort like a mind-controlled slave, instead of a loyal friend with his own thoughts and even agenda.

Shadow Lodge ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't know if this has already been said, but maybe there will be something in the new 4.2 guide (which will be released later today) to help you figure out what to do.

I don't know if there is, but perhaps there will be. Just a thought.

Shadow Lodge ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aneska Dakrath wrote:
so - I have a 6th lvl Undead Lord of Urgathoa / 1st lvl Fighter

Before continuing this thought process, you may want to read version 4.2 of the Guide to Organized Play. Starting on the 16th of August the Undead Lord will no longer be valid for PFS play.

Shadow Lodge *** Star Voter 2015

Hmmm... I wonder why. I never heard of it being overpowered (like the Synthesist) or of it being a drag at the table (like the Master Summoner). Is it just the "ick" factor of undead?

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

That's part of it, I suspect.

Also, running with undead is a red button issue for a lot of people. Clerics of Pharasma, Paladins with Vows against Undeath. Other evil-ish issues, like worshipping devils or poisoning people, etc, don't have that kind of built-in, in-character reaction.

Yes, Pathfinders are supposed to play nicely with one another. But, speaking as a player with an Undead Lord, I was already ready to set the character aside if there was a player looking to run her cleric of Pharasma.

Having said that, he's still a Dhampyr (that can't change) and he'll still be a cleric of Urgathoa. Instead of a Corpse Companion and the Command Undead feat, he'll have a second domain.

The archetype required more work than you might think to be ready for a session. My Undead Lord just rose to 6th level. Quick: what creatures are 6 HD and eligible to be skeletal or zombie host for my Corpse Companion? (Or 3rd level bloody skeletons?)

Shadow Lodge *** Star Voter 2015

Oh, wow. I never thought about that. I just assumed (I've never played, played with, or GMed for one) that you could just add HD to the base human skeleton. I didn't realize it had to be a skeleton of that HD. :o

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