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Let's talk Deities


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

Based on the most recent GoblinWorks blog post, I'd like to run through some concepts about what more direct influence religion could hold for game mechanics.

Okay, let's say that there is a hypothetical settlement named Brewerton. In that settlement, they have a tavern/church/holy place devoted to Cayden Cailean. Now, being as Pathfinder Online is vaguely based off of Kingmaker, I suppose that you'd end up having a cleric of some variety or even a whole congregation of clerics devoted to this holy place.

Now, all of the clergy are deeply devoted drinkers... err... holy men with their alignment as Chaotic Good like that of their Patron Deity. They've got the appropriate merit badges to run some sort of place of worship and all of that sort of thing.

I presume that various types of holy places grant various types of bonuses and allows for various services to be available to the public at large depending partly on its influence of good versus evil: (un)holy water, blessings, healing, resurrection, (anti-)necromancy stuff, etc.

A: Does the Patron Deity of Choice factor into special bonuses above and beyond those provided? For example, does a church of Cayden Cailean provide slightly different bonuses than a church of Sarenrae?

2: Do those special bonuses get adjusted based off of how devout its clergy are?

Lastly: Would those type of bonuses affect be only for the church or in some cases would they broaden out to affect the settlement as a whole?

Andoran Goblin Squad Member

You just got me thinking of something else. If you have said Cayden Cailean church in your settlement. Will the common folk begin to request a church from another deity? Will it kind of be like Sim city where your common folk get restless because they do not have access to a temple of Gozrah?

Goblin Squad Member

"This temple of Cayden Cailean is good value..."

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Virgil Firecask wrote:
Now, all of the clergy are deeply devoted drinkers...

Are they really? Are they all that stereotyped and flat dimensional?

Goblin Squad Member

LazarX wrote:
Virgil Firecask wrote:
Now, all of the clergy are deeply devoted drinkers...
Are they really? Are they all that stereotyped and flat dimensional?

Someone doesn't have to be stereotyped and one dimensional, but I'd imagine that it would be insanely rare to find a cleric of Cayden Cailean who dosn't find high regard to alcohol. You don't have to worship Cayden to like alcohol, but it's pretty rare for someone to worship Cayden who doesn't. Few people devote themselves fully to a diety they have nothing in common with.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Onishi wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Virgil Firecask wrote:
Now, all of the clergy are deeply devoted drinkers...
Are they really? Are they all that stereotyped and flat dimensional?
Someone doesn't have to be stereotyped and one dimensional, but I'd imagine that it would be insanely rare to find a cleric of Cayden Cailean who dosn't find high regard to alcohol. You don't have to worship Cayden to like alcohol, but it's pretty rare for someone to worship Cayden who doesn't. Few people devote themselves fully to a diety they have nothing in common with.

Perhaps, but I was under the impression that Caydean was more than a God of Frat Parties.

Goblin Squad Member

LazarX wrote:

Perhaps, but I was under the impression that Caydean was more than a God of Frat Parties.

He is more, but well, he stands for 2 things, drinking and freedom. All of his names he is known as

"the lucky drunk"
"accidental god"
"Drunken Hero"

Caydean is pretty serious about drinking. It would be pretty obscure to find someone who would pick Caydean over one of the many other gods who support freedom if they didn't share the second love.

Goblin Squad Member

LazarX wrote:
Virgil Firecask wrote:
Now, all of the clergy are deeply devoted drinkers...
Are they really? Are they all that stereotyped and flat dimensional?

Well, it is against the religious beliefs of the clergy to consume beverages which do not contain alcohol. So, they are all deeply devoted drinkers.

Addendum: they don't expect this of followers, but clergy are expected to follow this.

Goblin Squad Member

LazarX wrote:
Perhaps, but I was under the impression that Caydean was more than a God of Frat Parties.

All of CC's clergy would drink alcohol. It is literally a holy drink, and even CC-blessed holy water is alcoholic.


I'm more intrigued as to the boons each god will bestow.

Goblin Squad Member

Instead of thinking about which boons each god might bestow directly, think about how helping each religion could advance both your goals and theirs. Although the gods of Pathfinder are demonstrably real, expecting direct access to a cheesy adventurer's buff cuts out all the potential content of dealing with the clergy, the advancement of your status with that organization (or lack thereof as the Cask may be), the potential for quests to advance the status of the organization as a whole, and the npcs or pcs devoted to it. I'd like to see the buffs and boons the result of tangible in game actions and rewards.

To that thought, perhaps an Bar/Church of Cayden might offer a "luck" bonus (translated as combat buffs? increased loot quality in PvE? some inherent bump in stats?). I'd expect delivering a particularly spicey Hops from 3 counties over might earn the boon.

Similarly I'd imagine a player created Inn might attract devotees of the Lucky Drunk, perhaps allowing for the easier access to those boons, but also attracting the the worshippers of Father Skinsaw to poke holes in those barrels, or even particularly stringent aspects of Iomedea's clergy could have a problem with the wonton distribution of libations.

When I think of religion in Pathfinder, I certainly don't think of unified blocks of exactly aligned clergy and acolytes wearing 2 versions of the same uniform. I think of groups of individuals, more or less dedicated to various goals in line with each aspect of a portfolio, and each with their own motivations and personal goals. I know this level of unique NPC development is a bit too much to ask for an MMO to do well (I'm lookin at you SW:ToR), but its a good top end goal.

From a mechanical point of view, I think there are a ton of options for storytelling or economic stimulus, outside of the obvious pluses and minuses of a boon.


What of alignment and faith? Would evil deities have a desire to wreck havoc and give their followers bonuses in doing so? The sort of havoc needn't be immediate but could involve raising undead armies to pester good communities and trade lanes. The damage of an army of wraiths generated over a hundred days might be unimaginable but it might be possible to do! While this might seem expensive, remember that an entire community of high level evil characters can afford quite a bit of evil.

Now, what if some areas can be imbued with evil or good, with law or chaos, or even neutrality? This might demand large area, long duration community abjuration spells. I'm not sure there's pre-existing rules for such things.

Lantern Lodge

There are rules for such, but it is on a small scale though. Except for neutrality, but neutrality is lack of the extremes so it could be considered the default state.

Goblin Squad Member

I like the idea of the church. As far as boons, having a buff you just 'get' for following a religious tenant lessens the game, imo.

Perhaps an alternate way of achieving that would be if you are a follower of a certain god, and you go and 'pray' or 'meditate' or whatever at that the gods temple for 'x' amount of time, you get a deity specific boon that would only last 'y' amount of time, where 'y' could be dependent on the rating of the temple, or the level of the NPC clerics within.


I got a question about religions and deities. Is there a way to create new deities? Or for that matter new religions? Say I wanted to create a new cult under some type of powerful spider creature that rules over the apocalypse (Not that I would know anything about that of course. What!? Ummm... I don't worship the Old Ones! You crazy bro... ^^; ehehe... *nervous whistling*) How would I got about doing creating a new religion and god in the game world? Hypothetically speaking if it were possible. :P

Goblin Squad Member

Things are pretty early along for something that specific bro. Sounds like something you'd probably just want to do through role play. There may be in game ways to support your created deity (player built structure that you designate as a temple or something) and if they eventually allow for creating emblems with crafting, you could make clerical robes for your followers that display your deity's holy symbol.

No way to know now though if any of this will be in the game at launch or somewhere down the road. Initially, I'd look into making a role play oriented group before launch to see if there's any interest in what you have to offer. Either a group of like minded buddies or maybe a full on chartered company themed around being a dark cult.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryghamoc wrote:
How would I got about doing creating a new religion and god in the game world?

I would think Forencith/KitNyx might have some ideas.

For my part, the answer depends on what you're looking to accomplish. If you want to create a new god that has the same kind of in-game effects as the normal gods, then it's way too early because we have no idea what in-game effects the normal gods will have.

If, however, you want to create a god that the player-base is aware of and can choose to follow in their RP, then the answer is quite simple: Proselytize!

Goblin Squad Member

Ryghamoc wrote:
I got a question about religions and deities. Is there a way to create new deities? Or for that matter new religions? Say I wanted to create a new cult under some type of powerful spider creature that rules over the apocalypse (Not that I would know anything about that of course. What!? Ummm... I don't worship the Old Ones! You crazy bro... ^^; ehehe... *nervous whistling*) How would I got about doing creating a new religion and god in the game world? Hypothetically speaking if it were possible. :P

First I would say, there are plenty of gods in the lore to choose from, so I doubt it would be necessary to create one.

Second, you could go the Razmir route, though, again, there is already Razmir, so you might as well devote yourself to Razmir.

Third, if none of that fits, you can always start your own cult and/or philosophy.


Well I'm far different from Razmir. Hell I think he and I would be mortal enemies in fact. :P I'm more Chaotic Good in nature. But besides the point. Say we were to do really good in the name of a deity. Would they gift us with a powerful unique artifact? Or would everyone get such artifacts? :P

Goblin Squad Member

I think it's a safe bet that most major religions will have various artifacts and holy relics that are specific to their orders. Regarding unique, one of a kind artifacts, your guess is as good as mine.

It would be cool to see the occasional unique artifact. Especially if it were loot-able so whoever had it was always having to look over his shoulder.


If anything I would take a long look at all the deities and be sure you are not over-lapping intrests with any other god. Then go for it burrowin lazonya demi-god of sugery beverages.
on another note does anyone think there should be benefits for having special material holy symbols? gold/silver/petrified fossil dino bone. any ideas?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

On the note of "unique artifacts" either almost nobody has them, or they are available on the market. If only a few people have them and they are broken powerful, those few win and everyone loses.

I like the idea of flavorful and/or procedurally generated items, but they cannot be made absolutely rare in the context of a MMO. They can't even really be made rare in the context of most SPRPGs; either they are attainable by completing specific tasks, or they aren't implemented.


On the note of 'Gods' and alignments, I wonder if there will be an option off not picking one at all as your main deity.

Goblin Squad Member

xDialtone wrote:
On the note of 'Gods' and alignments, I wonder if there will be an option off not picking one at all as your main deity.

You mean a atheist?

Or someone who belive in the gods, but don't take anyone philosphy?

Goblin Squad Member

Gayel Nord wrote:
xDialtone wrote:
On the note of 'Gods' and alignments, I wonder if there will be an option off not picking one at all as your main deity.

You mean a atheist?

Or someone who belive in the gods, but don't take anyone philosphy?

Yes.

There should also be something in place for people to later on adopt/drop/change their religious preferences. Limitations in place, of course, but having the option there is always nice.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gayel Nord wrote:
xDialtone wrote:
On the note of 'Gods' and alignments, I wonder if there will be an option off not picking one at all as your main deity.

You mean a atheist?

Or someone who belive in the gods, but don't take anyone philosphy?

I'd imagine an atheist is a pretty tough role to be in a D&D/pathfinder universe. Very difficult to lack a belief in gods in a world where gods show their powers on a daily basis. Though not imposible, due to the existance of other non divine magics. (One could assume a god is just a high level wizard with a slightly larger than a normal wizards ego).

But I would be interested to see how the 2nd could work, if you would just pick 2 domains etc...

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:
Gayel Nord wrote:
xDialtone wrote:
On the note of 'Gods' and alignments, I wonder if there will be an option off not picking one at all as your main deity.

You mean a atheist?

Or someone who belive in the gods, but don't take anyone philosphy?

I'd imagine an atheist is a pretty tough role to be in a D&D/pathfinder universe. Very difficult to lack a belief in gods in a world where gods show their powers on a daily basis. Though not imposible, due to the existance of other non divine magics. (One could assume a god is just a high level wizard with a slightly larger than a normal wizards ego).

But I would be interested to see how the 2nd could work, if you would just pick 2 domains etc...

Not believing the gods exist in Pathfinder is like not believing in a forest if you live in the desert (or vice versa). Just because you've never seen a tree, doesn't mean there aren't millions of acres of em. More likely the "atheist/agnostic" would simply not devote their lives (souls, etc) to the worship of any deity and take their chances in the after life.

From a mechanical point of view, for PFO, i can imagine such a person would garner no boons and suffer no prejudices from various religions. So far, I've expected the official canon religions to be primarily NPC organizations, providing threads of PvE content. If this proves to be a valid expectation, I imagine an atheist would maintain a neutral stance with the various religious factions.

Goblin Squad Member

Gruffling wrote:


Not believing the gods exist in Pathfinder is like not believing in a forest if you live in the desert (or vice versa). Just because you've never seen a tree, doesn't mean there aren't millions of acres of em. More likely the "atheist/agnostic" would simply not devote their lives (souls, etc) to the worship of any deity and take their chances in the after life.

More like not believing in a forest when you live in one. Odds of a town that has never seen a cleric pass by and cast divine spells in their presence, is pretty low, which is the primary manifestation of a deities powers in the material plane.


I did not mean atheism at all, just not following any one belief, or maybe multiple concepts or ideologies.

Goblin Squad Member

Gruffling wrote:
Onishi wrote:
Gayel Nord wrote:
xDialtone wrote:
On the note of 'Gods' and alignments, I wonder if there will be an option off not picking one at all as your main deity.

You mean a atheist?

Or someone who belive in the gods, but don't take anyone philosphy?

I'd imagine an atheist is a pretty tough role to be in a D&D/pathfinder universe. Very difficult to lack a belief in gods in a world where gods show their powers on a daily basis. Though not imposible, due to the existance of other non divine magics. (One could assume a god is just a high level wizard with a slightly larger than a normal wizards ego).

But I would be interested to see how the 2nd could work, if you would just pick 2 domains etc...

Not believing the gods exist in Pathfinder is like not believing in a forest if you live in the desert (or vice versa). Just because you've never seen a tree, doesn't mean there aren't millions of acres of em. More likely the "atheist/agnostic" would simply not devote their lives (souls, etc) to the worship of any deity and take their chances in the after life.

From a mechanical point of view, for PFO, i can imagine such a person would garner no boons and suffer no prejudices from various religions. So far, I've expected the official canon religions to be primarily NPC organizations, providing threads of PvE content. If this proves to be a valid expectation, I imagine an atheist would maintain a neutral stance with the various religious factions.

From what I've read, and unfortunately I don't recall where so I can't provide a source, since it's impossible to deny the existence of deities since they have almost household effects in the world at large in the form of the magic their clerics wield, atheists in Pathfinder are those disillusioned or who have lost faith with religion or those that feel the gods don't deserve the praise and worship they get.

xDialtone wrote:
I did not mean atheism at all, just not following any one belief, or maybe multiple concepts or ideologies.

I think you mean polytheism, then.

It's actually kinda fun to do. At the moment, a Life Oracle I'm playing in one campaign worships Gozreh, Sarenrae, Pharasma, and Cayden Cailean... heck, I think even the iconic Oracle is polytheistic.


Harrison wrote:


xDialtone wrote:
I did not mean atheism at all, just not following any one

I think you mean polytheism, then.

It's actually kinda fun to do. At the moment, a Life Oracle I'm playing in one campaign worships Gozreh, Sarenrae, Pharasma, and Cayden Cailean... heck, I think even the iconic Oracle is polytheistic.

No. That is not what I said or meant. I meant what I said -exactly- as I said it.

Also, the religion of Pathfinder is anything but Monotheistic, the gods exist, they show us divine powers and healing through their clergy.

Just because I know Gods exist doesn't mean I practice their rituals and rights, I just don't follow their principles and live my life without guidance of the gods.

Just because you don't follow a religion doesn't make you an Atheist.

Lantern Lodge

Being spiritual and being religeous or two seperate things things. A religion is a codified set of beliefs, so someone can perfectly well believe iin the gods without haveing any leanings towards worshipping or following any particular diety's religeous teachings.

Or could follow a religion dedicated to values and providing worship to any and all dieties that uphold those values.

That is something that always bothers me about these games, they always assume divisions based on stupid things, like culture is defined by race rather then nation/region/group and religions always divide by individual dieties rather then whole pantheons/values.


@Hitomi thats just human nature sad to say and in rpgs it's no diffrent. Even in a fantasy world religions will fight for what they think is right. Easy part is good generally works together and evil does not unless absoluty nessasary or easly controlled.

On the other hand I think it will be intersting how many communities will be based on religion/alignment rather than race. If anything I would recommend they make a way for communities to come together under diffrent banners than just religion/alignment. A good dwarf will follow an evil king dwarf just for the loyalty he is suppost to show for his family and the law. The crown may be evil but he can do good work for his king hopeing one day he will change. many other scenarios that can come out of this but it also an exploitable feature as well if someone could find a way and there is always a way.

Lantern Lodge

Thing is, I don't really think thatKs human nature. Much more likely that someone wrote it that way so they only had to write race descriptions rather then races and kingdoms, then everyone learned that way and so never saw anything odd about it. That's more like human nature.

Look at polythiestic religions of the ancient world, most people went to different gods depending on what they were praying for and generally believed in all the gods.

As for race, human nature is to follow the lead of the few, and when someone wants power over others it's easiest to come up with some reason why they deserve it and something visible is of course first choice for a vision based creature, which humans are. Human nature also includes needing to justify one's self. Thus if race isn't being used to put someone down then people generally ignore it.

What little seperation remains in the USA is from families remembering certain cultural things from their history elsewhere and it usually doesn't stop them from getting along with everyone else.


Will depend on what role the gods actually play in the world that sets what will be plausible or not.

An atheist denies the existence of any such entity.

An agnostic neither believes nor disbelieves, and has the view that it cannot be proven either way.

A neutral just does not care either way and lets their own sense of right/wrong guide their actions.

If gods have an active role, either through interactions, blessings, and so forth it will be hard for the first two groups to exist with gods easily proven to exist and having a direct impact on the world. The third group would still be an acceptable option as a self serving non-religion.

If they are silent, much like the real world, and people rely on blind faith, then all 3 groups will be prevalent and have just as much merit as the most devout believers.

Goblin Squad Member

This isn't a discussion of the difference between atheism, agnosticism or whatever. The initial question was simply if choosing a deity was required during character creation.

As far as I know there hasn't been any confirmation either way, though personally I'm hoping it won't be required for all characters.

Lantern Lodge

I am hoping it won't be required at all, I don't understand the concept of several divine casters and only one can cast magic only if they revere a specific diety. When I go cleric, I usually go with Shadowism, a religion I made based on balance. Or I just pick two domains that fit the character.

Besides, it seems more likely that a priest in a world of many active gods, would give reverence to different gods in different situations depending on what gods portfolio affects what they are praying for.


Mcduff wrote:

This isn't a discussion of the difference between atheism, agnosticism or whatever. The initial question was simply if choosing a deity was required during character creation.

As far as I know there hasn't been any confirmation either way, though personally I'm hoping it won't be required for all characters.

Thank you :<

Goblin Squad Member

I agree that in the past polytheistic cultures tended to pray to gods of circumstance: need luck, pray to the god of luck...need justification for your deeds, pray to the god of "goodness" for the righteousness to do your actions...need someone killed, pray to some evil god, etc...

It is an easy thing to do when the gods are imaginary and your prayers to one do not effect your chance of getting favor with another later.

In Golarion, where gods are very much a "real" part of the universe, praying to a specific god might very well (and in my opinion should) alter your reputation with the other gods. Most of these gods are in a state of general uneasy truce, many are in outright conflict.

As for the option to not choose a god, I think that would be logical to allow the option of not observing any religious practices or preferences (for whatever reason you have decided to not rely or ask for any divine favor). But, I do not agree that this state would result in being "not-enemy" with all religions. Quite to the contrary an infidel is a disbeliever, illustrated by ones lack of active participation in a religion community/rituals. A "nastik", or non-pious, even if a believer, is an infidel to every religion and would be an enemy to any and all who actively condemn infidels. Of course, they would not necessarily acquire the enemies created by divine wars.

Lantern Lodge

I think you overstate the uneasy truce. The gods have portfolios, areas of concern to them, and the good gods are suppossedly good, and good beings generally find ways of sharing that is beneficial to all parties, why would good gods be any different?

The idea of praying to the god of relevence to your desired outcome would increase when gods take more visible action, besides there is no reason for one good god to not work with other good gods, particularly when their portfolios work together (such agriculture and weather)

It's not like prayers detract from all gods except the one being prayed to. Thus an alliance of gods can get the same followers providing prayers to them all as a group. Might be a few selfish outcasts but those would likely be the evil gods.

Isn't Imodea a god who was once champion to another god before achieving divine status herself? Why would she suddenly be at only an "uneasy truce," wouldn't she be working closely with her old patron?

Goblin Squad Member

If anything I understate it. Using your example, Iomedae:

http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Iomedae wrote:
Iomedae views Abadar, Cayden Cailean, Erastil, Sarenrae, Shelyn, and Torag as the equivalent of allies. She will not associate or parlay with evil gods or any fiends.

So, out of all the gods, Iomedia views 6 of them as allies, the rest as less than that. She will not even parley with an evil deity so we can assume outright war with them. The remaining gods, and there are many once you consider not only are we talking about all the common deities, but also:

http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Religion wrote:
some races and "civilized" monsters have their own pantheons of deities, worshiped primarily within their own ranks.

That is a lot of deities not be not allied with yet not necessarily at war with. And yes, I do think Iomedea would have a problem with someone frequently calling upon her for one thing and Asmodeus for another.

As for good gods working well together, Earth has many religions each following a "Good" God(s)...yet we kill each other in the name of those good gods all the time. I have no problem imagining less than perfect deities, no matter how divine, fighting each other over slights, real or imagined...or even over the best ways of accomplishing Good. I do agree that good deities share a compassionate agenda, but that might only go so far when each is only willing to take different means toward even a common end.

Anyways, just idle speculation. This is what makes sense to me from my interpretation of Golarion's lore. I admit I might be very wrong from the intended meaning, take what you will and leave the rest.

Lantern Lodge

I am not trying to say that the dieties are all in harmony and good gods would definately with followers who pray to evil gods for something but I still don't think they would say "don't ever ask any other god for anything ever!" As long as the followers generally stay within the rules the god put forth they likely wouldn't mind a little sharing, particularly when it goes both ways.

They might try to keep followers in their pantheon, though. I could see that.

I would compare it to nobles with serfs. The nobles all have their own agendas and alliances and enemies, but they not only don't mind serfs trading with others but they find it quite helpful and beneficial in general. They might deny serfs to go trade with an enemy or such but it would be unusual to be isolationist. Happens, but is unusual.

Goblin Squad Member

Gruffling wrote:


To that thought, perhaps an Bar/Church of Cayden might offer a "luck" bonus (translated as combat buffs? increased loot quality in PvE? some inherent bump in stats?). I'd expect delivering a particularly spicey Hops from 3 counties over might earn the boon.

Similarly I'd imagine a player created Inn might attract devotees of the Lucky Drunk, perhaps allowing for the easier access to those boons, but also attracting the the worshippers of Father Skinsaw to poke holes in those barrels, or even particularly stringent aspects of Iomedea's clergy could have a problem with the wonton distribution of libations.

One of two things ends up happening here:

1) This becomes a daily, where the players have to go to a particular NPC vendor in a particular town to purchase a particular item.

or

2) Some player(s) harvest the necessary item(s) and sell it/them for a tidy profit in towns across the region, meaning that '3 counties over' becomes 'right outside the door of the temple', no matter where that temple might be.

This encourages player interaction and initiative, but defeats the intent.

Either way, it's not really going to be optional.
CC leaders will insist on it's members getting buffed up to better do whatever it is that they are supposed to be doing, and people just trying to put together a group for some adventuring are going to see buffed players as superior to non-buffed ones.

I say let the clerics do the buffing, and if they can create potions, they can write up contracts for other players to perform duties in exchange for those potions, allowing them to get their buffs when they need them.

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