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Charles Xavier is a Jerk


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Silver Crusade

Having read what brought Onslaught on, I've come to the conclusion that the good Professor is a total Jerk. According to the Analysis, Charles Xavier keeps his worst feelings bottled up because that's how he deals with his problems.

But every once in a while, Charles has a meltdown and his jerky, snarky evil self comes out to torment the X-Men. He is a good example that the noblest of us all is starkly aspected with a shadow. Charles represents all the bad in the Marvel Universe wrapped up in a saintly package.

He has used his telepathy for evil purposes before. He tried to control the thoughts of Amelia Voght, someone he used to be attached too. Therefore, he's contrasted by Magneto, who uses Evil methods for the good of Mutantkind. Magneto fights for Mutantkind who thinks his dream and cause is just. While Charles Xavier fights for increased understanding.

But more on Charles Xavier's jerkiness.

* He recruits teenagers. Perhaps teenagers can be better molded.

* He keeps things from his students and tells them what they need to know on a need to know basis.

* He keeps files on the X-Men and how to kill them, just in case they go truly rogue.

* He has somehow fostered a certain relationship with his X-Men, making them co-dependent on them. All of the X-Men somehow blindly believes what he told them. The X-Men are a team of groupies. No one questions Xavier's authority.

* He has shielded his students' parents from knowing that they are mutants. Except for the parents who knew already.

* He has a persecution complex. After the Onslaught crossover, he willingly went into Government Custody.

And I bet there are more about Xavier's jerkiness I forgot to list.


Check out some of the Stan Lee run on the X-Men. From memory in the first three or four issues alone:

1) He secretly lusts after Jean Grey (a teenager), believing that she would love him too if only he wasn't in a wheelchair.

2) He defeats the Vanisher by erasing his memory.

3) He tries to recruit the Blob to the X-Men. When the Blob refuses, he tries to have the X-Men capture him. He then uses a machine to erase the Blob's memories of the event.

4) He fakes losing his powers so he can see how the X-Men (still teenagers) fare without his help. Their mission? Go into outer space and take on Magneto and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. And remember that this is 1960s Marvel, when outer space was filled with dangerous cosmic rays.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Check out X-men vs Micronauts, where evil Charlie mind controls some of his teen charges with lustful intentions.

Charlie tries to give out "demerits" to Logan after returning to the team, and basically tells Scott he's a complete failure in leading the new team because they won't play his way.

It's also been implied that he's applied Mind Control to Ororo since she was a child to make her more pliable to his way of thinking.


Xavier is an NPC. Thus his actions are based more on the needs of the plot at the moment than any consistent characterization.


thejeff wrote:
Xavier is an NPC. Thus his actions are based more on the needs of the plot at the moment than any consistent characterization.

Sadly, this works for ALL comic characters. It's difficult to find one that hasn't been turned into a total psycho/loser/hypocrite for the desires (I won't say needs) of the plot a writer has in mind.

Cheliax

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Grey Lensman wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Xavier is an NPC. Thus his actions are based more on the needs of the plot at the moment than any consistent characterization.
Sadly, this works for ALL comic characters. It's difficult to find one that hasn't been turned into a total psycho/loser/hypocrite for the desires (I won't say needs) of the plot a writer has in mind.

Case in Point Scott summers and pretty much all the x-men/mutants at the moment.

Andoran

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Ok, am I the only one to remember that this thread title is actually the title of an X-Men story? Can't remember the issue number, but it was said by Kitty Pryde, and is the story that introduces Lockheed to the regular cast (about 160, I think. Of Uncanny.). Damn, I feel old now. You kids get off my damn lawn!


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Paul Watson wrote:
Ok, am I the only one to remember that this thread title is actually the title of an X-Men story? Can't remember the issue number, but it was said by Kitty Pryde, and is the story that introduces Lockheed to the regular cast (about 160, I think. Of Uncanny.). Damn, I feel old now. You kids get off my damn lawn!

After 160. Closer to 170. Just after they returned from space after being kidnapped and infected by the Brood. Not Lockheed's first appearance but it's where they learned he'd stowed away and come back to earth with them.

Xavier tries to demote Kitty to the New Mutants, which prompts the title.

(Looked it up: 168. Actual title: Professor Xavier is a jerk!)

Andoran

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thejeff wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
Ok, am I the only one to remember that this thread title is actually the title of an X-Men story? Can't remember the issue number, but it was said by Kitty Pryde, and is the story that introduces Lockheed to the regular cast (about 160, I think. Of Uncanny.). Damn, I feel old now. You kids get off my damn lawn!

After 160. Closer to 170. Just after they returned from space after being kidnapped and infected by the Brood. Not Lockheed's first appearance but it's where they learned he'd stowed away and come back to earth with them.

Xavier tries to demote Kitty to the New Mutants, which prompts the title.

(Looked it up: 168. Actual title: Professor Xavier is a jerk!)

*bows down before superior geekery*


Paul Watson wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
Ok, am I the only one to remember that this thread title is actually the title of an X-Men story? Can't remember the issue number, but it was said by Kitty Pryde, and is the story that introduces Lockheed to the regular cast (about 160, I think. Of Uncanny.). Damn, I feel old now. You kids get off my damn lawn!

After 160. Closer to 170. Just after they returned from space after being kidnapped and infected by the Brood. Not Lockheed's first appearance but it's where they learned he'd stowed away and come back to earth with them.

Xavier tries to demote Kitty to the New Mutants, which prompts the title.

(Looked it up: 168. Actual title: Professor Xavier is a jerk!)

*bows down before superior geekery*

Well, you remembered it without prompting. I didn't.


Kevin Mack wrote:
Case in Point Scott summers and pretty much all the x-men/mutants at the moment.

In the case of the AvX event, it's everybody in the event who is not T'Challa. The list of principle players who seem to be acting in character is shorter than the list of those acting like somebody else is driving the body.

thejeff wrote:
(Looked it up: 168. Actual title: Professor Xavier is a jerk!)

I didn't know it was the title of the issue, although I am familiar with the giant splash page. They re-used it in Astonishing X-Men number 1 (the Whedon series, not the new one).


Even better re Xavier & jean Grey: he blocked her telepathic powers due to her traumatic awakening, without telling her (he even erased the memory) then restored them later telling her he was granting her some of his abilities.

All the while moping about how he loved her but could never tell her.


Much more recently, they ran a storyline about the teenagers who were his first attempt at making X-men. It... did not go well, if anyone remembers. Xavier has always been a jerk. To be honest, I like that angle of the X-men.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber

X-men has been written by a lot of rubbish writers.

The only time I really enjoyed it was the Grant Morrison run on New X-Men.

Xavier was a dude in that.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Personally? I think it makes Xavier more 'real' Like the humanizing (yes I know he'd hate that word) of Magneto under Claremont's pen.

First Class really gets into the 'Xavier is a jerk' nature of his powers. I mean watch the film. What are the two times he really screws up? With Raven (who he promised to never read her mind) and with Eric. ("Just following orders?" Really Chuck?).

In a way it makes sense for the character and his powers. Scott can't stop seeing the geometry and angles (a lesser aspect of his power) Ororo can't stop sensing the weather (something she mentions as being the most painful part of her power loss) Rictor talks about how he felt his connection to the earth 'severed' in Children's Crusade. I'd assume that Charles (and to a lesser extent Jean, Emma, etc) are constantly scanning and maybe even adapting their powers.

Also under Claremont's pen, part of Xavier's 'jerkiness' was trying *not* to be a crutch. Rogue's problem was originally psychological (Made more clear when the Carol Danvers persona was in charge of the body, she didn't have that problem) Even if it wasn't why not make a nullifier type thing? (kind of like they recently made for David?) Because Xavier didn't want to exchange one psychological condition for another.

Under Morrison's pen, we got to see even more why psychological blocks exist for mutants. David Alleyne's and Julian Keller in particular.

Now I'm not saying Chuck isn't a jerk at times, just not as much of a jerk as he seems to be.


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Charles isn't the only Older-Man-Younger-Woman romance (unrequited or not) in the Marvel Universe, so I'm not entirely sure that that aspect lends itself to him being a jerk in some way.

I mean, let's not forget that Reed was a tenured professor when he decided he was going to marry Sue - her being the ripe old age of 16 at the time.

Magneto/Rogue has been a thing both in and out of the Age of Apocalypse, and until the folks at Marvel decided that she and Kitty Pryde both needed to be legal, she was stuck at the age of 16 (later 18) for over a decade of comics.

Kitty was still listed as 16 in Marvel's Handbook/Who's Who well into her run in Excalibur (wherein she was sleeping with Pete Wisdom), until someone pointed out that that might cause readership issues, so they jumped her age forward.

If the perception that Charlie's got additional layers of jerk on him just because he spent a good portion of the book's early run pining after Jean, then it's perhaps a faulty perception.

I'd be really inclined to agree with Mr. Morris, here - adding that one of the overriding themes of a majority of Marvel comics (not just Spider Man) is that with Great Power comes Great Responsibility. Charles honestly believes that he is taking responsibility for his actions and his power, and that what he is doing will have longer-term positive impact than the shorter-term negative impact it has when it's discovered.

I mean, how many years did it take for Scott to finally say "No, Charles, I won't forgive you this time"? Scott is Xavier's chosen heir, really, and has seen the professor do some really callous and questionable things - but he's always come around to Xavier's way of thinking (on his own, even!) because he believed in it. The Professor plays the long game (Magneto the short), and when you know that you're smarter than everyone else in the room it's entirely possible to get lost in your own feelings of superiority. Charles is a jerk because he's got the same sort of "No, I really DO know better" syndrome going on that Reed Richards has. But unlike Reed, Charles doesn't have a real family to back him up and bring him back down to reality when necessary. Charles has purposely distanced himself from his students, his family, his lovers, all of them. Not out of desire, but a necessity that he sees, but others don't. He's perfectly willing to piss people off, and is completely unapologetic about his methods - so long as he can at least somewhat truthfully say that he's seeking a Greater Good, Peace Through Harmony method.

The reason people let Charles continue doing what he does isn't because they agree with it - it's because his way doesn't result in an all-out war between Homo Sapiens and Homo Superior. It doesn't make him less of a jerk. Just a more socially acceptable one.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Tangent

Spoiler:

Part of what would be interesting to me would be if they did turn the X-gene 'back on' allowing new mutants. Especially with Logan running the school. I remember Xavier (and Jean!) screwing with the memories of parents to help deal with some of the school's 'weridness'. And that's with 'normal looking' mutants like Kitty and Doug, not even counting a parent coming to visit their kids and seeing Kurt (or now Broo, Glob, kid Krakoa etc.)

Logan doesn't have that ability. So if we could have new mutants, how would John and Mary WASP, who thinks their son is 'gifted' only in the acedemic sense, handle the fact that he can shoot lightining from his hands? And that his classmates include a trio of aliens, a clone of a genocidal maniac (Evan) and beings that are 'allegedly human' but are a blob of transparent flesh with a skeleton, a living rockpile and an animate blob of Mercury?

Those would be more interesting stories. How would Logan handle it? Would he trade on his (and Hank's) 'Avengers cred'? Would he resort to asking Rachel to use her powers to 'pull a Chuck'? Would she even do it?

Qadira

I always found it annoying - the inability to keep track of time. Kitty pride has a Christmas back in issue x-men 143 (I don't know the year and don't recall a Christmas after that). So the characters and the story progress very slowly.

And some of Marvel comics 'paedophile'/old geezer-young kids aspects really offend me. Yeah there are days when I think I should burn everything but my Groo and Conan collection.


yellowdingo wrote:
I always found it annoying - the inability to keep track of time. Kitty pride has a Christmas back in issue x-men 143 (I don't know the year and don't recall a Christmas after that). So the characters and the story progress very slowly.

Christmas? AFAIK, Kitty has always been presented as Jewish.


Kalshane wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
I always found it annoying - the inability to keep track of time. Kitty pride has a Christmas back in issue x-men 143 (I don't know the year and don't recall a Christmas after that). So the characters and the story progress very slowly.
Christmas? AFAIK, Kitty has always been presented as Jewish.

She is. It was still a Christmas story. IIRC, Kitty was left alone in the mansion because everyone else had Christmas plans.

There have been other Christmases (and birthdays) since. Christmases are usually treated as topical references and not reliable guides to time passing.

Comics progressing in real time is kind of neat idea, but wouldn't work well for most Superhero universes. Kitty would be ~45. Most of the other X-Men in their 50s, the originals close to 70, etc.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

And IIRC pretty much destroyed the mansion by herself.

(Ignoring for the moment that leaving a 13-14 year old alone in the house for Christmas? Really?)

Silver Crusade

Matthew Morris wrote:

And IIRC pretty much destroyed the mansion by herself.

(Ignoring for the moment that leaving a 13-14 year old alone in the house for Christmas? Really?)

They should have had Jean watch over her.


Xavier didn't just erase the Vanisher's memory, he erased the Vanisher's mind.

He turned the guy into a complete vegetable without even so much as a moment to consider the moral implications of doing so.

The guy can't be punished, he can't be rehabilitated, all he can do is breathe, eat, poop, and eventually die.

That's worse than murdering a person.


Xavier turned the Vanisher into a vegetable? When was this?


Aaron Bitman wrote:
Xavier turned the Vanisher into a vegetable? When was this?

It was one of the first 5 issues, but I can't remember which one.

It was long before the X-men had the personalities we all know them for now.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

thejeff wrote:
Comics progressing in real time is kind of neat idea, but wouldn't work well for most Superhero universes. Kitty would be ~45. Most of the other X-Men in their 50s, the originals close to 70, etc.

I think that it still would be a good idea - and better then the periodic reboots that comic publishers (especially DC) do periodically. It would also allow characters to more believably evolve generationally along with their fans.

( ... It would have simplified dealing with the "whiteness" of most superheroes - a necessity in the 1940-1950s, but a problem now.)

I.e., Batman would have continued, but Bruce Wayne would have retired/died, with Dick Grayson taking over, and then he would likely have retired recently, to be replaced by a new Batman ... Or, more boldly, Batman/Bruce Wayne would have retired (and stopped publication). He would have been actually replaced in Gotham by Nightwing/Dick Grayson. Etc.

Keeping the same Iconic heroes/villains was done for marketing reasons. But would having those heroes retire and be replaced by new generations have cost fans? Would the risk for the publisher be worth it?


I preface all of the following w/the fact that I haven't read current story lines in a decade. That being said...

This thread is why I love Spider Man. Don't get me wrong; I was introduced to comics by Claremont's x-men but after I got into them I picked up Spidey and read him longer than any other.

Y'see all the x-men took their turns at being psychotic, controlling crazy people. Even when trying to humanize them the uber-drama going on with these folks was just too much for me. Nightcrawler becoming a demon, wolvie's constant berserking, scott & jean's frankly BIZARRE handling of their future son and many other moments lead me to this conclusion - they're ALL jerks.

Now Spidey's no saint; he lied to MJ, to Aunt May and (I think I recall this) played some mind games with Harry to get him to stop being Green Goblin. But through it all he never did it with a chip on his shoulder, or an agenda or some delusion of grandeur; he did it 'cause deep down inside he's just a kid trying to deal with what happened to him.

That's the difference for me between the x-men and spider man. The mutants all got their powers as teenagers, so presumably they lived normal lives to that point (if you call being a street thief in Cairo or a sideshow attraction in a german circus normal) but they seem to have no memory or relation to that normalcy. The writers who penned the book always seemed to want to make the x-men grander than they were, like a soap opera.

But spidey's personality has consistently remained human regardless of all the things he's seen or whatever writer's running him. He's COPING, like anyone would after a traumatic event. The x-men don't do that.

Case in point: Xavier. He's dealt with these powers for decades, and used them in truly jerky ways, tis true. But he's independantly wealthy and continues to use his resources to insulate himself from the rest of the world, all the while espousing a doctrine of integration and understanding. If he was really all about that, why not be shown as a philanthropist, or utilizing his powers for something other than mind control behind the scenes?

Peter Parker was hit with powers. In the course of using those powers he's had NUMEROUS opportunities to use them in selfish ways, yet he's chosen not to. More importantly in the course of his adventures he's uncovered many secrets he could use to his advantage, yet he never has. No, instead the last time I picked up a spider man book he was onto a career as a hs science teacher, participating in the world that CONTINUES to take a very negative view of his alter ego.

Xavier should be a counselor. Scott Summers should get a day job. Wolverine should re-join society. This is what I wish writers would get about the x-men; their lives aren't real and they should be in the world and society to MAKE them real.


Mark Hoover wrote:

I preface all of the following w/the fact that I haven't read current story lines in a decade. That being said...

This thread is why I love Spider Man. Don't get me wrong; I was introduced to comics by Claremont's x-men but after I got into them I picked up Spidey and read him longer than any other.

Y'see all the x-men took their turns at being psychotic, controlling crazy people. Even when trying to humanize them the uber-drama going on with these folks was just too much for me. Nightcrawler becoming a demon, wolvie's constant berserking, scott & jean's frankly BIZARRE handling of their future son and many other moments lead me to this conclusion - they're ALL jerks.

Now Spidey's no saint; he lied to MJ, to Aunt May and (I think I recall this) played some mind games with Harry to get him to stop being Green Goblin. But through it all he never did it with a chip on his shoulder, or an agenda or some delusion of grandeur; he did it 'cause deep down inside he's just a kid trying to deal with what happened to him.

That's the difference for me between the x-men and spider man. The mutants all got their powers as teenagers, so presumably they lived normal lives to that point (if you call being a street thief in Cairo or a sideshow attraction in a german circus normal) but they seem to have no memory or relation to that normalcy. The writers who penned the book always seemed to want to make the x-men grander than they were, like a soap opera.

But spidey's personality has consistently remained human regardless of all the things he's seen or whatever writer's running him. He's COPING, like anyone would after a traumatic event. The x-men don't do that.

Case in point: Xavier. He's dealt with these powers for decades, and used them in truly jerky ways, tis true. But he's independantly wealthy and continues to use his resources to insulate himself from the rest of the world, all the while espousing a doctrine of integration and understanding. If he was really all about that, why not be shown as a...

Part of that is just being a team book.

Solo heroes tend to have lives, jobs and supporting casts outside the superhero world so that they have someone to interact with outside of fighting villains. Team books don't have space to build any kind of private life for each character, so they tend to focus the down time on interacting with each other. If each of 6-7 heroes had a job, a romance, relatives, money troubles, etc, how often would you actually see any of it?

Obviously heroes who have or have had their own books in addition to being on a team get the best of both worlds, but even so it rarely gets more than a cameo in the team book.

Some of the X-Men (Wolverine at least) have had solo books, but those came long after they were well established.


In X-Men #2, Professor X did NOT erase the Vanisher's mind! He reduced the Vanisher's mind to that of a child. It was quite obvious that the Vanisher would recover and go bad again to be reused one day when Stan Lee ran low on villain ideas. Clearly, Xavier allowed the Vanisher to grow up again, giving him a chance to grow up to be a better human being the second time around, even though anyone - in the comic-book world OR the real one - could tell that wasn't going to happen.

Furthermore, Xavier did even THAT most reluctantly. Only after the X-Men failed to defeat him in the usual way, and after Xavier carefully studied the Vanisher and determined that there was no better way, did he affect the Vanisher's mind as a last resort.

Don't get me wrong. I can't deny that Xavier can be a jerk sometimes. Occasionally, he's a far bigger jerk than the situation warrants. But YOU try taking on such a tremendous job as he did without ever bending the rules, or p---ing some people off!

(Sorry for the outburst, there. What can I say? Xavier is quite possibly my favorite character in all of Marvel Comics.)

Lord Fyre wrote:
I.e., Batman would have continued, but Bruce Wayne would have retired/died, with Dick Grayson taking over, and then he would likely have retired recently, to be replaced by a new Batman ... Or, more boldly, Batman/Bruce Wayne would have retired (and stopped publication). He would have been actually replaced in Gotham by Nightwing/Dick Grayson. Etc.

Yeah, I'll never forget when I first got hooked on the JSA. Jay Garrick was... old! My goodness!

And Earth-2! What an incredible world! Batman died and was succeeded by his daughter, the Huntress! And Infinity Inc! Trying to erase that world was, in my opinion, one of the biggest mistakes of the COIE.

And in my favorite JSA run (the 1999-2008 one) I was blown away with what I saw. A NEW Mr Terrific took the name of the old, dead one. And a new Dr Mid-nite! And a new Star-Spangled Kid! And the SON of Starman! And...!

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Re: Peter Parker's life vs X-men.

That's part of the fun of X-factor. They're detectives, and actually work. Now sure technically they don't have to, (Monet's rich, and they could all 'teach' at Logan's school) but Jamie's stated goal is to live in the world, not apart from it. Of course Jamie's method of skill acquisition means that he's worked several jobs and been in the world a lot.

I think I remember reading somewhere, that Claremont's goal in introducing Maddie was to make a woman who looked like Jean. A normal human woman, whom Scott would marry and retire from the X-men, allowing him to 'age' and rotate the X-cast like above.


I have ever been fond of comic book characters aging and developing. Even as a kid I saw it a little with Spider Man and Hulk (Peter David's Hulk that is) but I rationalized in my head around 10 or 11 that because of comics only coming out once a month and having continual story lines that it was perfectly acceptable for the characters to age, say 1/4 as fast as the "real" world.

However the mutants never seemed to adhere to that rule. Even in their solo books they always did the same things, fought the same fights, lived the same lives.

Y'know 2 x-books that proved me wrong in the 90's? Excalibur and X-factor. Not the original x-factor w/the original x-men, but the one with Strong Guy, Havok, Polaris and the rest.

Excalibur had a grown up Kitty Pryde and some serious attempts at interpersonal development and drama, despite being a team book. They really took a look at what it meant to be a hero and adventurer there and the toll it took on those who chose that life.

X-factor was funny, irreverant and unafraid to get dark, despite being mainstream. There were rumors that the Legacy virus would kill Madrox but everyone figured "whatev; they'll never kill a guy who's been around since the early 70's and is a mainstay of the team." But they did it, painfully, and obviously and with true sorrow. And not only that but they showed the team grieving; not just for one issue but for the numerous stories...as real people do.

Still, theres the aging thing, and that brings me back to my friendly neighborhood Spider Man.

In the continuity I read back in the day Peter Parker was allowed to age. I mean REALLY age, true to my rationalization. He went to high school, college, graduate studies, and (I think) started toward his doctorate. He Dated (eventually came out of his "wallflower" shell) and finally got married, then divorced. The last time I was reading several years back he was teaching high-school science and attempting to re-connect with his ex-wife.

Oh yeah, and there was that whole Spider Man part too.

Best freind's dad: a psycho who tried to kill him and eventually died
Best friend: mentally ill, former drug addict who followed his dad...all the way to the grave
One time enemy (Kraven): kidnapped him, put him in a coma, killed himself in front of our hero
Girlfriend #1: died being tossed off a bridge and may have died by Spidey's own web

Spidey and Peter have been put on trial for murder, seen horrible and amazing things, and have through it all both grown and remained the same...JUST like real folks would. Maybe this is because its a solo book, but maybe they've just gotten REALLY lucky with writers. Either way I say Make Mine Marvel, Nuff Said, Excelsior!


Still not aging in real time though. It's cool to see characters progress and grow and in the early days Peter did. It was something like 4 or 5 real years to 1 comic book year, but it was still change.

The X-Men did too, it's just not as obvious. They were a bit older, at least the New X-Men were. There's not as much difference between 20 and 25 as between 16 and 21. They didn't have quite as much personal trauma either, but that's because it was split up among the heroes rather than all focused on one.

As for aging in real time, I'm against it. Some change and progress is good, but if he'd aged in real time, Peter Parker would be in his 60s and I'm not interested in that. I like Parker and want to keep reading about him, not his grandchildren. He's the iconic character, not them.


jemstone wrote:
I mean, let's not forget that Reed was a tenured professor when he decided he was going to marry Sue - her being the ripe old age of 16 at the time.

I don't think this is true.

But if it were, it'd be legal in New Hampshire!


Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
jemstone wrote:
I mean, let's not forget that Reed was a tenured professor when he decided he was going to marry Sue - her being the ripe old age of 16 at the time.

I don't think this is true.

But if it were, it'd be legal in New Hampshire!

In much of the country.

But, more seriously, Reed was a genius. I'm not sure it's ever been stated exactly how old he was when he got his degree, but it was well ahead of schedule.


I think she was older than 17.


I remember them meeting while she was still in high school. Though it was her crush to start with. There may have been different versions.

According to various wikis, they met when she was 12 and he was in college. She was his landlady's niece. Of course, he first went to college at 14, so it might not have been that far apart. He was older than that, but I'm not sure how much. According to the same sources, they didn't actually date until she was in college.


Johnny was, I think, 15, when they went up in space.

Does it ever say how much older she is?


Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
jemstone wrote:
I mean, let's not forget that Reed was a tenured professor when he decided he was going to marry Sue - her being the ripe old age of 16 at the time.

I don't think this is true.

But if it were, it'd be legal in New Hampshire!

I'd need to go find the issue (which is buried in a closet in a pile of long boxes), but I'm almost positive that in at least one version of the "How Reed And Sue Met" story, Reed's got the grey sideburns and is "Professor Richards," not "Student Richards."

I'll take what the Wiki says as fact, though. The number of times that the Marvel continuity's been rewritten, anything that makes a single unified sense out of it is fine with me. Although it should be noted that the Invisible Woman wiki says she was 17, while the Mister Fantastic wiki says she was 13.

Enh. Either way, apparently the 60's writers for Marvel were a bunch of wild ones.

It's all so mixed up! Some sources say Johnny was 16, others 17! WHO HAS THE TRUTH? WHOOOOOOOO?!

Goes completely insane... well... insane-er.


jemstone wrote:

Mister Fantastic wiki says she was 13.

Well, in NH, that'd be legal, too.


Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
jemstone wrote:

Mister Fantastic wiki says she was 13.

Well, in NH, that'd be legal, too.

For having your landlady's niece have a crush on you? Where wouldn't that be legal?


Nowhere.

But if they wanted to take the next step and start a new life together in the eyes of the Lord and the law, they could only do so in the Granite State. With her parents' permission.

How long it would take for Franklin to arrive, I dare not even wonder.

---
I can't find any definitive statements of fact, but I say that when they got married: Reed was 25-28 and Susan was 20-22. Even if she was 18-19, that was perfectly normal for the early 60s.

I'm getting out my Fantastic Four reprints.


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Flipping through the first dozen issues I say: Nah. Sexist nomenclature back then might have labelled her the Invisible Girl but Susan Storm has always been the Invisible Woman.


What IS it with the FF and sexual deviancy? It's like Mallrats all over again. Can't we just say "it was the 60's" and get over it?

Let's bring it back to other jerk stuff Xavier did...like purposely putting psychological blocks in Jean's mind or mindwiping whole crowds just for convenience.


For Professor X and sexual deviancy, see The Boys.


I never EVER want to see The Boys. Not that there's anything wrong with that (in my best Seinfeld)...


Oh, there's plenty wrong with it.


Some of my best friends are gay! (my best Costanza) I'M GAY!

Edit: Too far?


GM Elton wrote:


* He recruits teenagers. Perhaps teenagers can be better molded.

More along these lines.

---
The Boys is/was Garth Ennis's anti-superhero title about a squad of CIA agents who go around picking off the supes, who turn out to be, in general, a pretty disgusting bunch of people.


Ugh. Reminds me of the old Marshall Law comics. I've been looking for heroes; haven't found any yet.


And in true Garth Ennis style, our heroes really aren't that great either in the end.

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