While we are waiting for an Epic Level Rule Book how about coming up with some ideas on what it should include or how it should be set up? I did a quick search of the message boards and saw nothing, as of recent posts, that covered this, but I have been know to be wrong.
In the Core Book it suggests doubling the experience from the previous level for the next. After doing the math from level to level my calculations say the difference should be x1.415 from level to level.
Personally, to make it a little easier I would go with 1.5 times for each level. It may be just me, but I hate leaving a class unfinished. That makes it a little difficult to to get into Prestige Classes...although, using a prestige class to continue a core class beyond 20th level my be elementary it is still a food answer to the problem. Especially when using the 1.5 times xp (house) rule.
Did I answer my own questions, or is no one interested in conversing about this subject?
I think as far as EXP requirements go, you should just go with the requirement for level 20 + the requirement for level 1 and so on.
The real issue is what abilities to get. They have suggestions for earning new spell slots and levels, but then one needs to take into consideration powers and archetypes as well.
You mean after reaching 20th level just start over? Even by adding them on top of the xp for 20th wouldn't be near the curve. I do have to agree on the matter of it being a quick solution though.
Still, it is good to have suggestions to think about. This is one to think about.
Pretty much. There is just one problem...eventually it would take so much xp that you would have to start destroying worlds to advance (surely by then your character would be old and grizzled...lol
Pretty much. There is just one problem...eventually it would take so much xp that you would have to start destroying worlds to advance (surely by then your character would be old and grizzled...lol
1) What's the problem with destroying worlds ;-)
2) Or immortal.
There is that, but then there are all those maps that wouldn't be any good anymore. The GM would have so much trouble creating new maps, new worlds, new civilizations....being a GM myself I wouldn't wish that on anyone else. Yeah...it would be easier to use the rules laid down by 3.5 for making god characters.
You could always make an XP farm. Summon monsters via planar binding. Kill them. Rinse repeat. I'm sure a clever wizard could make the process very quick and efficient. ;-)
You could always make an XP farm. Summon monsters via planar binding. Kill them. Rinse repeat. I'm sure a clever wizard could make the process very quick and efficient. ;-)
lol, that wouldn't work in my campaigns...at least not efficiently. I subtract the party level from the CR of the enemy as far as xp rewards go.
You could always make an XP farm. Summon monsters via planar binding. Kill them. Rinse repeat. I'm sure a clever wizard could make the process very quick and efficient. ;-)lol, that wouldn't work in my campaigns...at least not efficiently. I subtract the party level from the CR of the enemy as far as xp rewards go.
Knights of the Dinner table tried something similar with a sheep farm. They weren't worth much XP, but if you killed enough of them it added up. ;-)
That is true TCG, but I do have to add if you go that route, your character will have a bigger fight with exhaustion. It would probably be more effective to farm orcs for experience (especially when using that epic attack rule, when you are 10 levels higher than your opponents and are able to attack about 10 at the time). Hmmmm. There is a thought.
Oh, but the topic is ideas for epic levels, not really about how to get there.
There is that, but then there are all those maps that wouldn't be any good anymore. The GM would have so much trouble creating new maps, new worlds, new civilizations....being a GM myself I wouldn't wish that on anyone else. Yeah...it would be easier to use the rules laid down by 3.5 for making god characters.
I think it would be only fair to require any player whose character's destructive activities invalidate your maps to be given the responsibility of drawing up the new maps. Anyone capable of such destruction should have some sort of goal as to what he wants to turn the land into, after all.
ROFLMAO!!!! I agree completely!
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There is a 3rd party product out there called Legendary Levels which deals with this, not a perfect system, but the best attempt so far.
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BTW, the XP table is easier to extend if you double the extra XP needed from two levels back. It's not exact due to the way they rounded it, but it's easier than multiplying by (square root of 2). For example, to get from 9 to 10 takes 30,000 more xp, about twice what it takes to go from 7 to 8 (16,000 xp). (You can tell they rounded from the 32,000 xp expected.)
The simplest suggestion on how to move on is to limit any one class to 20 levels, but you can continue to multiclass or take some prestige classes.
That's all assuming you aren't playing E20 though.
I like your xp idea! Very simple and fair. As far as limits go...I can't say I'm a fan of limits (for the most part). I can easily come up with something to continue advancing bonuses. Even if it means duplicating/stacking what has come before.
I'm not a big fan of limits either, which is why I only said it's the simplest approach. I'd much prefer being a wizard 30 to being a wizard 20/monk 10 (or whatever), but a wizard 30 ought to have some spell slots above 9th level, which is a huge can of worms. (Again, there's an easy way out, limit it to metamagic, but it's not very satisfying.)
Edit: Actually, I suspect casting classes are the biggest can of worms for epic levels. I'm not sure any of the non-casting classes have anything that'd be difficult to extrapolate (although I haven't actually checked).
Spell casting above 9th level spells shouldn't be hard to cover, seeing as how spells can be increased, as far as difficulty in casting. Basically adding full effect to a spell, extending a spell and things of that nature cause them to be cast at a higher level than normal. That being the case you can just take the spells you like and optimize them to cover the next level of spells. An optimized Wish spell may be cast as a 10th or 11th spell.
Just a thought.
Yeah, that's one option (not much different than metamagic though). Really though I suppose it's not that big of a problem. You'd pretty much need the kind of player that would want to make their own spells to try and play an epic level wizard or sorcerer anyway.
On the matter of making your own spells. This came up in a campaign when I was running a barbarian. Here is the link.
Now that I think about it, once you can cast 'wish' aren't other spells superfluous?
Pretty much. There is just one problem...eventually it would take so much xp that you would have to start destroying worlds to advance (surely by then your character would be old and grizzled...lol
Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, but there is always story xp. I would award xp for four CR 20 encounters pr session even if it did not feature a fight worth actually fighting.
Pretty much. There is just one problem...eventually it would take so much xp that you would have to start destroying worlds to advance (surely by then your character would be old and grizzled...lol
That's why I was hoping that the pathfinder epic rules would go to 30. Most peoples take on epic level rules usually goes to 40-50 or whatever.
Pretty much. There is just one problem...eventually it would take so much xp that you would have to start destroying worlds to advance (surely by then your character would be old and grizzled...lolPerhaps I'm stating the obvious, but there is always story xp. I would award xp for four CR 20 encounters pr session even if it did not feature a fight worth actually fighting.
Yeah, but if you do the math to get to 30, you would need to kill tens of thousands of tarrasques by yourself to get even close, lol.
Yeah, but if you do the math to get to 30, you would need to kill tens of thousands of tarrasques by yourself to get even close, lol.
Actually, I did the math (bored) and by my calculations you would need to solo 1312 Tarrasques to get from level 20 to level 30. That's using medium progression and the "double XP needed to gain your current level" guideline. From 19 to 20 you need 1,050,000 XP, so you would need 2,100,000 to get to level 21, then 4,200,000 to get to level 22 and so on. Proceeding like this until you get to the XP needed to go from level 29 to 30 (1,075,200,000) and then adding all of these values together you get 2,148,300,000 XP needed to go from level 20 to 30. Dividing that by the XP gained from a Tarrasques (1,638,400) and you get 1,311.218-etc. So you'd need to kill 1,312 Tarrasques. Still, that's much closer to the "tens of thousands" than I expected it to be when I read your statement.
Actually seeing as how I subtract the level of the party and/or individual from the CR it would take a lot more the higher in level you go.
The reason I subtract levels from the CR is because the higher in level you are the easier it is to take out the lower level beings.
Yeah, but if you do the math to get to 30, you would need to kill tens of thousands of tarrasques by yourself to get even close, lol.Actually, I did the math (bored) and by my calculations you would need to solo 1312 Tarrasques to get from level 20 to level 30. That's using medium progression and the "double XP needed to gain your current level" guideline. From 19 to 20 you need 1,050,000 XP, so you would need 2,100,000 to get to level 21, then 4,200,000 to get to level 22 and so on. Proceeding like this until you get to the XP needed to go from level 29 to 30 (1,075,200,000) and then adding all of these values together you get 2,148,300,000 XP needed to go from level 20 to 30. Dividing that by the XP gained from a Tarrasques (1,638,400) and you get 1,311.218-etc. So you'd need to kill 1,312 Tarrasques. Still, that's much closer to the "tens of thousands" than I expected it to be when I read your statement.
Oh, I thought it was doubling the experience total from 20 and on. I haven't read it in a while and I guess I read it wrong. Jeez that would have been brutal.
Now that I think about it, once you can cast 'wish' aren't other spells superfluous?
Only if you don't mind spending a ton of money. Wish as a replacement for other spells isn't a great option.
math
XP doesn't double at each level. It (roughly) doubles every other level.
Level - Total XP needed:
21 - 5100000
22 - 7200000
23 - 10000000
24 - 14000000
25 - 20000000
26 - 28500000
27 - 40500000
28 - 57500000
29 - 81500000
30 - 115000000
I see your point on the spells and thanks for doing the math. I had already agreed with this scaling of xp, but now doubly so.
I think I have a sort of quick/dirty way of making spells for beyond 9th...Mix existing spells and add their respective levels together.
Did I answer my own questions, or is no one interested in conversing about this subject?I think we're in Epic discussion fatigue. It was argued exhaustively months ago to really any little progress. Given that such a book is probably a couple of years away, it'd be more frutiful to bring that up when it becomes more of a project than a possibility.
Discussion?
I begged for 10th level spells and up, and they said "No, bad dog!" and hit me with a newspaper. That's how it felt and that's not a discussion.
I think I have a sort of quick/dirty way of making spells for beyond 9th...Mix existing spells and add their respective levels together.
Can you post these things somewhere?
I think I have a sort of quick/dirty way of making spells for beyond 9th...Mix existing spells and add their respective levels together.Can you post these things somewhere?
I can try. Spells are not my strong suit, but for now here is what I am thinking.
Take fireball (a favorite) and mix it with teleport. Add their levels together (I know fireball is 3rd, but I don't recall teleport). That would be the spell level for 'Teleporting Fireball'.
Call it 'Explosive Departure' and 'Explosive Arrival' as a pair of spells. One drops fireball where you left. One drops fireball where you're about to arrive.
:D
Call it 'Explosive Departure' and 'Explosive Arrival' as a pair of spells. One drops fireball where you left. One drops fireball where you're about to arrive.
:D
I had a friend create one called "Travel by Lightning" which was much how you describe. It was a custom teleport spell with safeguards at either end, and a helluva lotta style.
Also, I don't believe Epic Levels should be about you reacting to the world around you, but what you bring to the world. It's a time when you leave your mark upon Golarion, after all. In many ways, it's a whole new game. 1,000,000xp means you've "arrived", and the stakes just got a lot higher. You're no longer just heroes, but leaders and legends. It's a time when the whole world will be looking up to you.
A few ideas for levels 21+: max HD per level; one feat per level/replace a feat (as an option) every other level; casters treat 1st level spells as osirions/cantrips after level 23; PCs gain Leadership feat for free at 21st level; DR10/- at level 22. Spell resistance somewhere in there, too.
I'd guess that Epic levels would still need some enticement to play, so the benefits should be staggered.
Alternately, allow 20+ to take a PrC w/o needing to meet the prereqs.
and I think Owly ^^ has a great point- the PCs aren't reacting any more- they are stepping in to fight the World Wound, battling the White Witch herself, challenging the devils of Cheliax, petitioned to confront Treerazer, called on to hold court in Galt, and other such "Epic" duties.
I think it'd be weird for the rules of the game to suddenly change when you pass level 20. I can see the argument for a change to save progressions, but most other stuff like feats, spells, BAB, etc. should probably not change drastically. Otherwise, you're suddenly playing a completely different game, which was part of my problem with the 3.5 epic rules. (New options that require 21+ levels would be fine though.)
Edit: Of course, if you extend the class progressions, you could add some of those details as class features. A fighter getting DR at level 25 or a wizard getting SR doesn't sound so strange.
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At the moment, e20 is probably your best bet. Open up a selection of epic level feats such as 10th level spells, epic maneuvers and stuff, but don't ramp up the hit dice.
Stuff like this:
Punch a Hole in Space [Combat, Epic]
Prerequisite: Epic, Stunning Fist
By expending a use of stunning fist, you may use plane shift on a single creature as a spell-like ability (DC = 20 + your wisdom modifier).
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At the moment, e20 is probably your best bet. Open up a selection of epic level feats such as 10th level spells, epic maneuvers and stuff, but don't ramp up the hit dice.
Stuff like this:
Punch a Hole in Space [Combat, Epic]
Prerequisite: Epic, Stunning Fist
By expending a use of stunning fist, you may use plane shift on a single creature as a spell-like ability (DC = 20 + your wisdom modifier).
I quite like the idea of dropkicking, suplexiing, and/or piledriving devils back to hell.
Exorcisms would be awesome.
Supreme Escape [General, Epic]
Prerequisite: Epic, 20 ranks of escape artist
You have freedom of movement as a constant supernatural ability. If it is suppressed or dispelled, you may resume it at the beginning of your turn as a free action.
For the fighter that wants to cut swathes through armies:
Glorious Cleave [Combat, Epic]
Prerequisite: Epic, Great Cleave
Each time a cleave would grant you an additional attack, you may move five feet before making the attack.
At the moment, e20 is probably your best bet. Open up a selection of epic level feats such as 10th level spells, epic maneuvers and stuff, but don't ramp up the hit dice.
Stuff like this:
Punch a Hole in Space [Combat, Epic]
Prerequisite: Epic, Stunning Fist
By expending a use of stunning fist, you may use plane shift on a single creature as a spell-like ability (DC = 20 + your wisdom modifier).
Call it TENGEN TOPPA and I'm fine with that ;)
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Yours is the monk that will pierce the heavens!
Yours is the monk that will pierce the heavens!
As he punches said foe, he yells, "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM!"
I just have to say that I still thoroughly enjoy the from 3rd edition. Simple levels of improvement, balanced by access to feats. Lots of flavorful options, and not a radical departure from the game as it is.
Many of the other options presented, here and from other places, make playing a game with epic and non-epic characters simultaneously (whether PCs or NPCs) nearly impossible.