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Rogue; 2wft; dazzling display; defense breaker with a speedy keen rapier and an extra d6/d10 per crit?
Surprise round = Attack with defense breaker.
Next round (and subsequently about 3 more rounds) all attacks are sneak attacks (damage wise). So that is:
15-20 range for crits;
10d6 per hit: and you can do 4 (main hand) plus 3 (offhand high dex, high offhand). So 7 attacks per turn, not counting up to 5+ more AoO. Add a STR -2 hit on each one, so -14 str per round on the mob (no save).
2d6 x 8 = 16d6 (x2 crits) + 70d6 sneak attack + str(or int, dex depending on other feats), +14 str damage a round (up to 7 more if you use chill touch pre-combat and do touch attacks, but then you lose 8d6 damage). After two rounds of strikes the opponent will be down either do to str damage or HP damage.
Overall, I still see this as the best DPS class since it means a = 7 recieved STR bonus damage from your opponent.
86 * 3.5 = 301 average DPR, again, +14 Str damage (which will kill/incapacitate most things in 2 rounds regardless of HP).
Do a search for "dpr olympics" choose the message board drop down. I think it was justover 815 posts once it peter'ed out.
Rogue; 2wft; dazzling display; defense breaker with a speedy keen rapier and an extra d6/d10 per crit?
Surprise round = Attack with defense breaker.
Next round (and subsequently about 3 more rounds) all attacks are sneak attacks (damage wise). So that is:15-20 range for crits;
10d6 per hit: and you can do 4 (main hand) plus 3 (offhand high dex, high offhand). So 7 attacks per turn, not counting up to 5+ more AoO. Add a STR -2 hit on each one, so -14 str per round on the mob (no save).2d6 x 8 = 16d6 (x2 crits) + 70d6 sneak attack + str(or int, dex depending on other feats), +14 str damage a round (up to 7 more if you use chill touch pre-combat and do touch attacks, but then you lose 8d6 damage). After two rounds of strikes the opponent will be down either do to str damage or HP damage.
Overall, I still see this as the best DPS class since it means a = 7 recieved STR bonus damage from your opponent.
86 * 3.5 = 301 average DPR, again, +14 Str damage (which will kill/incapacitate most things in 2 rounds regardless of HP).
Except that at high levels the Rogue will miss with most of his attacks and really needs a flanking partner to pull off this crazy damage. Yes, against a low AC foe with a flanking buddy rogues can do insane damage, but how often are you going to pull this off?
In my last campaign I played a rogue and was very unhappy with their combat effectiveness. Most of the time I get into a flanking postion just as the barbarian has killed off the bad guy forcing me to reposition yet again. In real game round to round effectiveness, it's hard to beat an archer who can full attack almost constantly. Too bad it is so boring.
DPR Olympics and DPR Summer Olympics. If you are looking for a quick answer, the highest individual DPR is generally archery followed closely by a single two handed weapon. But it is going to depend on builds, tactics, level, and all that.
86 * 3.5 = 301 average DPR, again, +14 Str damage (which will kill/incapacitate most things in 2 rounds regardless of HP).
Average damage is generally calculated against the AC of a level appropriate foe, not in a vacuum. Having a high theoretical average doesn't matter much when your strikes don't land.
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DPR Olympics and DPR Summer Olympics. If you are looking for a quick answer, the highest individual DPR is generally archery followed closely by a single two handed weapon. But it is going to depend on builds, tactics, level, and all that.
86 * 3.5 = 301 average DPR, again, +14 Str damage (which will kill/incapacitate most things in 2 rounds regardless of HP).Average damage is generally calculated against the AC of a level appropriate foe, not in a vacuum. Having a high theoretical average doesn't matter much when your strikes don't land.
First, forget flanking, this is what shatter def is for after an intimidate. And I have yet to see touch ACs in the 30s... Cast your chill touch and go... 20 hits (almost 3 rounds) of touch attacks, all of which (after the first) are sneak attacks. No flanking required.
If you want to do ranged this way, take the same feats and use a bow, but then you start going against people's real AC. Of course, the shatter defense should mean a little of a balance for this. Touch attacks all but nullify their defense instead. So "in a vacuum" isn't a real situation. How about versus AC 10, since they lose their armor from touch attacking, and their dex bonus from shatter defense? So that means 3 attacks (2 main, 1 offhanded) of +15 + dex/str/int vs ac 10, 2 at +10 + dex/str/int vs ac 10, and 2 at +5 vs ac 10. Pretty HUGE vacuum...
now... in your defense/offense you will point out that Intimidate doesn't work vs things immune to mind affecting and that chill touch gets a SR roll... but hey, you can't hit everything all the time. Versus other non-spellcasters/SR people, this is a great class combo. A fighter can also be stopped by simply adding the 50% concealment bonus to armor... so don't go all "you miss half the time" - I can make most anything miss most of the time... fireballs vs. a imrpoved evasion foe for instance... blah blah blah...
There is a rogue talent that allows you to cast low level spells as SLA's.
ninja'd by 1 second.
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Rogue is generally not so good due to situational damage and low chance to hit, but against AC 10, thats hardly a problem.
This is not a build I would have thought of.
Of course, it does bypass the "nonmagical" DPR I was actually going for; but its a very interesting build nonetheless.
My main reason I'm asking is a "if one were to try to design a new melee class, what makes a good benchmark for maximum damage output?, and what other stuff would this build have at the same time?"
First, forget flanking, this is what shatter def is for after an intimidate. And I have yet to see touch ACs in the 30s... Cast your chill touch and go... 20 hits (almost 3 rounds) of touch attacks, all of which (after the first) are sneak attacks. No flanking required.
Uh... super, I guess? I never mentioned flanking, and your whole post was about using a "speedy keen rapier," with chill touch only mentioned as an aside. So you appear to be arguing about something completely different from what you initially posted. I was simply pointing out that, for comparison to how DPR is usually calculated, it doesn't work to assume every attack hits. Those -10 iteratives and natural 1s shave off a surprising amount of damage.
now... in your defense/offense you will point out that Intimidate doesn't work vs things immune to mind affecting and that chill touch gets a SR roll... but hey, you can't hit everything all the time.
Thank you very much for coming to my defense, but SR is really only one issue with your strategy. Specifically...
Your write-up has you using "Defense Breaker" (I assume you mean "Shatter Defenses," as "Defense Breaker" does not seem to exist) in the surprise round. However, you need to intimidate your foe before that feat will do anything. So your action in the surprise round would need to be a standard action intimidate, or you need to add in one of the numerous ways to intimidate foes you hit.
The 1d6 damage enhancements are passable, but upgrading to the d10 on a crit versions is a terrible choice. You would be better off using that bonus for the Agile property, to add Dexterity to damage. Or just taking an extra +1.
You can bypass armor with chill touch, but you can't two-weapon fight with it. Per this FAQ and the rules for holding a charge, charges are held in a single hand. If you try to cast the spell again for the other hand, it would cause the first spell to discharge harmlessly. Even if you are of the interpretation that held touch spells can be used for iterative attacks, you will only get 4, not 7, a round. It should be noted that some argue you can't make iterative touch attacks at all, but that really isn't important here.
There isn't a spell as good as chill touch to pull this at range. Fiery shuriken is probably the best, but you will need to use expensive consumables or be an Arcane Trickster to pull that off. Arcane Trickster would probably be better even if you are going the chill touch route, as the Rogue's 1/day spell isn't always going to last (especially if you accidentally touch something with the hand). Regardless, you will have to deal with issues of resistance, possible attack penalties, and that SR you mentioned.
Not that it touch/sneak attacks aren't a good trick (acid flasks were specifically banned from Sneak Attack because of it), but I'd still probably stick to a high level archer for my generic, non-magic-class, DPR needs.
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Actually, with TWF, you can make all your attacks but one as your off-hand attack.
The official DEV rulings is that regular iteratives can be made with any attack you want (ruled when someone was asking if you had to do all attacks with the same hand if you don't have TWF, and the devs said thats not the case), and the TWF attacks have to be made with your off-hand attack. So in an attack routine with 7 attacks, you can make all of them but the first with the same weapon.
So if you can't chill touch with both hands, using TWF you can still get all of your attacks with Chill touch except the first.
I've also pointed this out in the recent threads about the likely monk Nerf. If you're Two-Handing a temple sword or reach weapon that's flurryable, you can waste your first attack on an inanimate object (like the floor) and then flurry with your reach weapon, if needed.
The official DEV rulings is that regular iteratives can be made with any attack you want (ruled when someone was asking if you had to do all attacks with the same hand if you don't have TWF, and the devs said thats not the case), and the TWF attacks have to be made with your off-hand attack. So in an attack routine with 7 attacks, you can make all of them but the first with the same weapon.
I'd recommend reviewing the FAQ, assuming that is the one you are referring to. Specifically...
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."
If you are going to TWF, you have to declare one weapon as primary and one as off-hand. In the above example, you don't have the option to attack primary longsword +6, off-hand mace +6, primary mace +1. Likewise, in this situation, you cannot make a primary non-chill touch attack, then follow it with a bunch of chill touches as both your primary iteratives and your off-hand attacks.
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Oh. That is peculiar.
I saw the thread where SKR made that ruling, But I hadn't seen the FAQ made afterward. (That FAQ seems rather like an errata than a clarification).
Nothing anywhere said your iteratives had to be your primary attack, and the bit where they ruled that when not using TWF you could mix and match attacks as desired made it sound like that was always the case for all iteratives, regardless of what else you have that changes iteratives.
When he made the ruling, there was nothing anywhere to indicate that TWF imposed any additional limitations to your Iterative attacks; and as such I could see no reason why you couldn't do: Primary longsword +6, off-hand mace +6, off-hand mace +1.
In light of me seeing this FAQ/errata, yeah, this chill touch build doesn't work for TWF, and the Monk nerf is in fact as big of a deal as people are saying it is, unlike what I initially thought based on SKR's thread posts that predate the FAQ you linked.