Ok, using Psion to keep it all base classes, and with all attributes 10, the little Frankenstein has Fort 26, Ref 12, Will 20, 72 skillpoints and around 100HP. I used 2 archetypes Falconeer Ranger to swap an useless Wild Empathy for an extra pet, and Master Summoner, because there was no downside to it. He has 5 different pets, four different ranged touch attacks (five if you count the gun), the ability to use summon monster I 5 times a day and he can cast haste once a day, and that is all before choosing his spells or feats. I'm pretty sure that if he has a couple rounds to buff and uses a monk weapon he can be a much better fighter than his BAB would make you believe. And I just realized, but he can play high shenanigans with magicitens even without spending one point in UMD, since he already has access to ALL the spell lists.
This character is not at all powefull, but I do believe he can take on enemies of CR12, maybe even more.
He'd never have survived apprenticeship.How about a 20th level wizard with an intelligence of 7? Such a character is technically legal but probably even more useless than a 20th level commoner.
So? I thought we were trying to come up with the worst 20th level character possible. Many pretty decent player characters get killed well below 20th level.
If the character actually has to be capable of surviving from 1st to 20th level, then we would have to sort through a bunch of mediocre characters whose DMs show them extreme favoritism but somehow do not utterly drive away the other players.
So what guidelines do we want to use? Rolled ability scores or point buy? What minimum competence level in initial class should we require? One way to mess up a character would be to make a highly optimized character at level 1 and then take all future levels in a different class that he is hopelessly unqualified for -- that would at least eliminate the "never have survived apprenticeship" issue.
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You don't get experience unless you meet and deal with CR level appropriate threats. A character like this might barrel through first level, stumble through third, but he'd definitely be dead by fifth.
For NPCs, that's utter bullcrap. The 20th level wizard who's spent his entire lifetime locked in his tower studying books, researching new spells, etc didn't get to 20th level by going out and killing ogres, he got to 20th level by studying.
Here's my entry:
1: Commoner
2: Expert
3: Aristocrat
4: Monk
5: Rogue
6: Pathfinder Delver
7: Pathfinder Chronicler
8: Master Spy
9: Adept
10: Oracle
11: Alchemist
12: Magus
13: Inquisitor
14: Bard
15: Witch
16: Summoner
17: Wizard
18: Sorcerer
19: Druid
20: Cleric
BAB +0
Pump all stat points into Constitution. 10s or lower in everything else.
Put all skills into a different craft skill save for the prequisite skills you must have to get your prestige classes.
All feats are either toughness, save increases, or skill focuses for your craft skills.
Yes, with high hit points and exquisite saves you might very well survive the campaign. But no spells or important skills depend on Con.
You're a failure at combat (+0 BAB, +0 damage) your entire career, both ranged and melee.
You're a failure at skills since none of your stats are of any real use to the skill system.
You don't gain your first 1st level spell till 9th level and then its in the adept spell list.
And by 10th level, just as you are learning a few arguably useful spells, you go blind (oracle's curse).
By the way, be sure to only pick spells that defend you ... JUST YOU. Useless but alive. That's your motto. In latin 'Irritus et Invictus' -- Useless and Invincible. You should put that on your shield's crest.
You gain the rogue trapfinding at fifth level, but by then you have almost zero chance of actually finding a trap (no perception skill ranks, no wisdom bonus)
You are truly worthless your entire career.
But you are alive to steal treasure from your more worthwhile fellow adventurers.
They're gonna LOVE you.
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
1st Barbarian
2nd Bard
3rd Cleric
4th Druid
5th Fighter
6th Monk
7th Paladin
8th Ranger
9th Rogue
10th Sorcerer
11th Wizard
12th Alchemist
13th Cavalier
14th Gunslinger
15th Inquisitor
16th Magus
17th Oracle
18th Summoner
19th Witch
20th Pathfinder ChroniclerBaB +6
No spells above 1st level.GREAT Saves :)
Definitely playable.
Here's my entry:
1: Commoner
2: Expert
3: Aristocrat
4: Monk
5: Rogue
6: Pathfinder Delver
7: Pathfinder Chronicler
8: Master Spy
9: Adept
10: Oracle
11: Alchemist
12: Magus
13: Inquisitor
14: Bard
15: Witch
16: Summoner
17: Wizard
18: Sorcerer
19: Druid
20: ClericBAB +0
Pump all stat points into Constitution. 10s or lower in everything else.
Put all skills into a different craft skill save for the prequisite skills you must have to get your prestige classes.
All feats are either toughness, save increases, or skill focuses for your craft skills.
Yes, with high hit points and exquisite saves you might very well survive the campaign. But no spells or important skills depend on Con.
You're a failure at combat (+0 BAB, +0 damage) your entire career, both ranged and melee.
You're a failure at skills since none of your stats are of any real use to the skill system.
You don't gain your first 1st level spell till 9th level and then its in the adept spell list.
And by 10th level, just as you are learning a few arguably useful spells, you go blind (oracle's curse).
By the way, be sure to only pick spells that defend you ... JUST YOU. Useless but alive. That's your motto. In latin 'Irritus et Invictus' -- Useless and Invincible. You should put that on your shield's crest.
You gain the rogue trapfinding at fifth level, but by then you have almost zero chance of actually finding a trap (no perception skill ranks, no wisdom bonus)
You are truly worthless your entire career.
But you are alive to steal treasure from your more worthwhile fellow adventurers.
They're gonna LOVE you.
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
Hmmm...it can be done. You might need some cheese, but I could see this character contributing. It would require you to take extra advantage of your equipment, make the craft skills work for you, enjoy that you can use spell-trigger items and scrolls from virtually every class, and abuse the hell out of certain tactics at higher levels; but it could be playable.
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Ashiel,
You are either very optimistic or have a very low threshold for "useful". :)
Though he puts lots of points into craft skills as a whole, Mr. Useless yet Durable never gets that good at anyone of them (+1 rank, +3 class skill skill). +4. Yay.
In a game where masterwork items have a DC 20, He has a 75% chance of failure. That means he'll fail on average three time before he succeeds.
That means statistically, since items cost 1/3 to manufacture, he'll end up paying 133% of cost to make masterwork items. And it only takes him weeks of effort to make his more-expensive-than-retail items. Again, yay!
If you waste a skill focus feat, his items will almost break even. But who wants to do that, when you could be buying up his durability and saves?
Spell-trigger items only work on spells you can cast, and though (by higher levels) he can cast virtually any 1st level spell, he can only cast 1st level spells. Any higher level spell trigger is denied him. He has no skill with UMD to help with this need for versatility.
He can utilize first level scrolls and can even create those scrolls at 17th level or higher. At the same time a straight wizard is getting his first 9th level spell, at last this guy can at last make his very first scroll of magic missile. Double Yay!
Besides, why would Mr. Useless want that stuff? He should be spending all his money on items that increase his (is this getting repetitive yet?) durability and saves! Higher AC! Higher hit points! Higher saves!
That is probably where this guy could actually be useful. Being so inept will probably eventually get on your GM's nerves. By having so many hit points and such infernally high saves, when your friendly neighborhood game master begins to try and murder Mr. Useless with monsters, your fellow PCs will be able to attack the beasts you have very successfully distracted.
Anyways, it was an interesting exercise finding twenty classes and prestige classes that get you a +0 BAB. That's what caused me to waste a few minutes on this (quite ludicrous) little jaunt.
I think you get the picture.
Happy gaming, my friend. And may Mr. Useless never see the light of actual play.
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
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Circetose,
I like it. Let's see where this takes us. Start with Stats. Let's assume a 15 pt. build:
Race: Human
Str 10
Con 20
Dex 10
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 10
So, even keeping with the no NPC classes rule that changes things to:
1. Wizard 1
He's a wizard with no spells and 2 skill points. He spends those two skill points on Perform (Dance) and Stealth (prerequisites for PrCs) both non-class skills. They told you that you weren't smart enough for the wizard's college. Prove them wrong!
Feats: Endurance, Toughness
As a matter of family honor, you wield your father's trusty dagger DeathMaster and nothing else. Feel the power!
2. Magus 1
No Arcane pool, no spells, no cantrips. Your hit points do get slightly better (d8 instead of d6) and you get proficiency with light armor which you will need to wear to ruin your monk level coming up.
3. Monk 1
The armor goes on and stays on. The true kung-fu master can fight even in chain mail. Let those who say otherwise taste your rabid hamster style.
Feat: Medium armor proficiency
4. Rogue 1
Abandoning a lawful alignment, this power master turns criminal. He actually get modestly stealthy, or he would if he would just take off that chainmail he insists on wearing everywhere. Your Con is now 20. Ultimate power is within your grasp.
5. Witch 1
Still no spells, but you get a friend. A toad. He talks, you swear. No one else believes you. Another feats grants you heavy armor proficiency. At last the armor of your dreams -- splint mail! You swear you'll never take it off.
6. Shadow Dancer 1
Prestige classes are where the real power is. Everyone knows this and you've been interested in dance since you were a child. Time to follow that dream. With your level of shadow dancer you become the artist you were destined to be taking Perform (drums), Appraise, Profession (Sailor) and Swim. You are a one-man entertainment sensation. Alas, that your hide in plain sight class power is somewhat hampered by your splint mail and your perenial use of percussion instruments.
7. Alchemist 1
Dancing was a fools gig. You're so over that. Alchemy! That's where the action is. People tell you that alchemists need Craft (Alchemy). Those are the same close-minded fools who told you monks couldn't wear armor. But look at you now, a splint-mail clad killing machine. Your mutagen makes you tougher than ever and you can throw your no bombs a day with perfect accuracy. You gain Brew Potion. Perfect! If only you knew any formulae. Oh, well...
You gain another feat: Iron Will
8. Inner Sea Pirate 1
How can you deny it any longer? The sea calls to you! Alchemy was for fools! A dead end! But the ocean, that's endless. Your Con soars to 21. Your sneak attack becomes a massive +2d6 (at only 8th level)! You are perfected by the sea.
9. Druid 1
The sea sucked. If you never lay eyes on a boat again it will be too soon. The forest is where it's at. Let us bond with all your nature friends. They say you can't be a druid and wear metal armor! HAH! The nature god I believe in doesn't care!
Feat: Deceitful (PrC prereq)
10. Oracle 1
Okay, maybe he cares a little. Time to flee the forest (don't ask why) and find a new gig. Oracle! That's it!You can see the future! And it makes you blind. Oops. Yes, you can't actually cast any 1st level spells (CHA too low) but you do gain some orisons. Actual 0th level magic! At only 10th level! Unbelievable! You are on the path to power now!
11. Inquisitor 1
Fortune telling isn't exactly a growth industry for someone with no actual divination spells. Instead you hook up with an organization more level headed -- the inquisition! You will judge the unworthy.
Feat: Skill Focus (Perform[drums])
12. Cleric 1
The inquisition blew. Let's try the temple. Yes, more orisons! Power beyond reckoning will be mine. O, great and powerful gods, I turn to thee! Make me thy instrument!
13. Sorcerer 1
What did the gods ever do for you? Nothing! It is time to accept your heritage. You are truly the child of the dragon! You have claws and everything! No spells but a few cantrips with only a 40% failure rate (thanks to your splint mail, which is by the way now seriously magic).
Feat: Diehard
14. Bard 1
The draconic heritage...yeah, it wasn't so bad, but as you listened to the soothing strains of a gentle drum solo you remember your early days. Time to be a performer once more.
No spells. But you gain a few songs you are actually good at. 14th level and you actually have a modestly useful class ability. Will wonders never cease?
15. Assassin 1
You know, what? Nobody ever really liked you. You realize that now. You are a dark brooding shadow of death or something. Somehow you managed to kill someone (a miracle!) and that was enough for you very briefly to get inducted into an order of assassins before they realized their mistake. You can now use poison! Yay! Not that you can hit anyone.
Feat: Lightning Reflexes
16. Master Spy 1
You are licensed to kill. You are an international man of mystery. Yes, you are... the master spy.
17. Pathfinder Delver 1
The spy business is a total drag, man. You found something! It's old! You are a delver.
Feat: Great Fortitude
18. Pathfinder Chronicler 1
After a marathon begging session, someone bought your book. Or maybe they paid you 50 gp to go away. Either way, it worked! You are now a chronicler! You've been in the same organization for two levels in a row! No doubt ... you're a pathfinder for life.
19. Summoner 1
The pathfinder society can kiss your sweet patootie. Worst Chronicle ever written? That's harsh. You don't need them. You have a friend. Another friend! Remember your toad familiar? Well, you now summon up an eidolon ... another toad. A bigger toad. It turns out your two toads hate each other and croak angrily at one another day and night.
Feat: Improved Initiative (PrC Prereq)
20. Lion Blade 1
Here it is! The pinnacle of power! +0 BAB, no 1st level spells, a smattering of orisons and cantrips and few bardic songs. Some would see this as a weakness. You realize it is your greatest strength. Everywhere you go, folks underestimate you.
But really, could you have reached twentieth level if you weren't destined for some sort of greatness?
I rest my case.
What do you think?
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
Definitely playable.
1st Barbarian
2nd Bard
3rd Cleric
4th Druid
5th Fighter
6th Monk
7th Paladin
8th Ranger
9th Rogue
10th Sorcerer
11th Wizard
12th Alchemist
13th Cavalier
14th Gunslinger
15th Inquisitor
16th Magus
17th Oracle
18th Summoner
19th Witch
20th Pathfinder ChroniclerBaB +6
No spells above 1st level.GREAT Saves :)
Not only playable, but as I build him I realize... He can be very fun to play! Clog the battlefield with summons and pets, snipe with touch attacks while activating buffs (Judgement, Smite and Challenge are all swift actions), then wade into melee using your summons as flank buddies. A raging, judging, simting, challenging, flurrying, sneak attacking guy seems pretty fun! He can do nothing in his weight class, but he hits higher than he should.
Ashiel,
You are either very optimistic or have a very low threshold for "useful". :)
Though he puts lots of points into craft skills as a whole, Mr. Useless yet Durable never gets that good at anyone of them (+1 rank, +3 class skill skill). +4. Yay.
Not a problem. I'd choose Gnome and pick up item creation feats, then use all those silly craft skills to produce things like elixirs and low-end magic items, because you can use spellcraft OR the appropriate Craft skill. I'd also invest in mwk tools (+2 to the appropriate Craft), and then create items that granted +competence bonuses to my Crafts. That should allow me to comfortably get up enough in skills I desire to take 10 and Craft more or less anything I could really need. The alchemist dip means that I won't need to take Brew Potion either.
I can craft items at a higher caster level than my own by taking the appropriate penalties -- including spell completion, spell trigger, and potion items as long as I can provide the spell in question -- so I would likely do things like rely on wands of magic missile at 9th caster level (3,375 gp) instead of +X weapons as a primary source of damage. Before they become feasible, I'd use Craft (Calligraphy) in conjunction with Scribe Scroll to produce scrolls of magic missile and similar spells that can hit-hard and provide no saving throws.
If you waste a skill focus feat, his items will almost break even. But who wants to do that, when you could be buying up his durability and saves?
I'd probably take Toughness and a couple of feats here and there. Saving throws are likely to be very good on this build since it dips all over the place, so I'm not sure I'd need 'em. Might take 'em anyway, since it'd basically help immunize against limited wish bombing.
Spell-trigger items only work on spells you can cast, and though (by higher levels) he can cast virtually any 1st level spell, he can only cast 1st level spells. Any higher level spell trigger is denied him. He has no skill with UMD to help with this need for versatility.
You might want to double check that my friend. Both spell trigger and spell completion items can be activated without being able to actually cast those spells as long as they are on your class' spell list. A 1st level Ranger can use cure light wound wands, and a 1st level Wizard can use CL 10 wands of fireball if desired. Likewise, scrolls or other spell-completion items can be used but require a caster-level check (DC = caster level of scroll +1), which means if I am a 1st level wizard and I try to cast a scroll of fireball then I need to roll a 5+ on a d20. If I fail the spell doesn't go off but the scroll is not consumed and I must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap. I'd risk mishaps occasionally at low levels, but by higher levels I could comfortably never fail it.
He can utilize first level scrolls and can even create those scrolls at 17th level or higher. At the same time a straight wizard is getting his first 9th level spell, at last this guy can at last make his very first scroll of magic missile. Double Yay!
He'll never compare to a strait wizard, but he has the capability to still be functional if you apply appropriate amounts of cheese. Since he'll have a level of cleric, we can use a candle of invocation. Since he has levels in wizard, we can acquire a simulacrum. In both cases if you know how to work the system, you could still bring something to the table with this character.
Besides, why would Mr. Useless want that stuff? He should be spending all his money on items that increase his (is this getting repetitive yet?) durability and saves! Higher AC! Higher hit points! Higher saves!
Um?
That is probably where this guy could actually be useful. Being so inept will probably eventually get on your GM's nerves. By having so many hit points and such infernally high saves, when your friendly neighborhood game master begins to try and murder Mr. Useless with monsters, your fellow PCs will be able to attack the beasts you have very successfully distracted.
I don't think he'd be that durable outside of his saving throws. Even pushing Con like it was going out of style, you're still going to cap out at 36 Con at your absolute highest. You'll have a bit over 300 HP at 20th level. That can be dismantled in a round easily, unless you're avoidance is also through the roof.
Anyways, it was an interesting exercise finding twenty classes and prestige classes that get you a +0 BAB. That's what caused me to waste a few minutes on this (quite ludicrous) little jaunt.
I think you get the picture.
Happy gaming, my friend. And may Mr. Useless never see the light of actual play.
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
Agreed, actually. It was fun looking at your build and figuring out how to make it work for you. I had to help a player during one of my games who was experimenting with "organic growth" where he didn't plan out any of his advancement and instead picked a class that seemed appropriate at the time (sometimes just by name, ugh). He ended up with some sort of cleric/wizard/rogue/ranger/3.5 assassin thing, and by mid levels he was very sad because he felt useless. I looked at what he had and said "Okay, let's try to make all of that work for you..."
And during the next session, he began using some perks from all his classes together, along with some cheap magic items, and suddenly he was the life of the proverbial party. He was hard to find, hit pretty hard, and had a very nice death-attack DC. He was evasive, and had a little trick for all sorts of occasions.
This build was kind of like his, only worse. But I think it's do-able if you really know how to game the system; which seems fair, because we really gamed the system here to make it as bad as it is. XD
EDIT: Anyway, I'm out guys. Ya'll have a good day.
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Circetose,
I like it. Let's see where this takes us. Start with Stats. Let's assume a 15 pt. build:
Race: Human
Str 10
Con 20
Dex 10
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 10So, even keeping with the no NPC classes rule that changes things to:
** spoiler omitted **...
Pretty good, and I'm glad it exists since the other post was deleted.
All skill choices should be Professions not Craft. Craft can in some ways be turned to useful things. Outside of GM Fait and some very nitch rules Professions have 0 utility. Especially if you only take a single rank in each.