teleporting into water


Rules Questions


At the next game session, my players are going to teleport into a large cave about 500ft underground which the sorcerer has studied carefully. Since the last time they were there, the cave has been flooded by opening up a tunnel to the lake it is under.

I'd like to make sure I have to following correct so I can adjudicate this properly:

1. The players can hold their breath for a number of rounds equal to twice their constitution. I can find no rules differentiating between taking a deep breath then jumping into water vs being surprised by suddenly finding themselves in water.

2. The sorcerer can teleport the party back out the next round as long as he makes the concentration check for casting underwater (DC 15 + spell level).

3. If the sorcerer fails the concentration check, he begins to drown as casting a spell with a verbal component means he is no longer holding his breath. He falls unconscious (0hp).


You look to have the right of it except-

Nothing in the rules (that I can find) says that casting a spell means you forgo any rounds of breathing.
Now of course you give up *some* air to say something but all of it? I dunno.

For the sake of not murdering the entire party if he flubs the check I'd probably rule that he uses 1/4 or 1/2 of his holding breath time for every standard-action spell he casts. half that amount for swift and twice it for a full round action spell. (assuming he doesn't silence it and that it has a V component to begin with, of course).

Either way- your rule or what I said, is basically house-rule territory.

If you go your way though- Do you have something planned for if this wipes the party?
Not knowing the backstory behind it and all that of course, but it sounds like a simple recipe for them all dying at once.

-S

Liberty's Edge

for starter, as the layout has changed I would not call it studied carefully. At best seen casually.

About yoru questions:

PRD wrote:

Drowning

Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1.

When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.

Unconscious characters must begin making Constitution checks immediately upon being submerged (or upon becoming unconscious if the character was conscious when submerged). Once she fails one of these checks, she immediately drops to –1 (or loses 1 additional hit point, if her total is below –1). On the following round, she drowns.

It is possible to drown in substances other than water, such as sand, quicksand, fine dust, and silos full of grain.

PRD wrote:

Swim

If you are underwater, either because you failed a Swim check or because you are swimming underwater intentionally, you must hold your breath. You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to twice your Constitution score, but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his breath only half as long as normal.) After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue holding your breath. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you begin to drown.

Not much of use there. I am going from memory for my further comments, so it cam be a mix of 3.5, Pathfinder and other sources:

1) to be capable to hold their breath the character should have taken a deep breath before going underwater. In your situation they wouldn't be holding their breath when they are plunged into the water, so they wouldn't have the buffer of constitution x2 rounds before starting to make checks.

2) "Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion."
but
"Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance of spoiling any spell with a verbal component that he tries to cast."

I am not so sure that you can cast teleport, a spell with a verbal component, underwater, unless you are capable to breath the water.

3) No. He start to make constitution checks, initial DC 10, +1 to Dc every round that pass.
As the group members weren't holding their breath when they were teleportd into the water all teh party members would be making those checks from round 1.

See this way you have a high risk of a TPK.

Liberty's Edge

Selgard wrote:

You look to have the right of it except-

Nothing in the rules (that I can find) says that casting a spell means you forgo any rounds of breathing.
Now of course you give up *some* air to say something but all of it? I dunno.

For the sake of not murdering the entire party if he flubs the check I'd probably rule that he uses 1/4 or 1/2 of his holding breath time for every standard-action spell he casts. half that amount for swift and twice it for a full round action spell. (assuming he doesn't silence it and that it has a V component to begin with, of course).

Either way- your rule or what I said, is basically house-rule territory.

If you go your way though- Do you have something planned for if this wipes the party?
Not knowing the backstory behind it and all that of course, but it sounds like a simple recipe for them all dying at once.

-S

Standard action. so it would shorten the air reserve by 1 round.

The problem is if he can utter a spell with a verbal component underwater.

My suggestion is to say that the flooding has changed the destination enough that now they are teleporting to a "false destination" and send them to a similar area wit a bit of damage from a mishap.
That should be a a good warning that something is amiss.

Metagaming, when you say to the spellcaster teleporting the group: use a d20, not a d100 he should get that something has happened.


Selgard wrote:

If you go your way though- Do you have something planned for if this wipes the party?

Not knowing the backstory behind it and all that of course, but it sounds like a simple recipe for them all dying at once.

My experienced players entered a complex under a lake, wasted a lot of resources unnecessarily, then decided to teleport to safety after a "15 minute adventuring day" figuring they would come back the next day completely buffed and power through whatever was left. Their opponents are Int 25 Mi-Go. Both on principle and for story reasons I have to make this tough for them (but do it fairly). If I get a TPK, we move on to Skull & Shackles and hopefully they will have learned a lesson. Worst case scenario, they don't learn anything.


Mandor wrote:
Selgard wrote:

If you go your way though- Do you have something planned for if this wipes the party?

Not knowing the backstory behind it and all that of course, but it sounds like a simple recipe for them all dying at once.
My experienced players entered a complex under a lake, wasted a lot of resources unnecessarily, then decided to teleport to safety after a "15 minute adventuring day" figuring they would come back the next day completely buffed and power through whatever was left. Their opponents are Int 25 Mi-Go. Both on principle and for story reasons I have to make this tough for them (but do it fairly). If I get a TPK, we move on to Skull & Shackles and hopefully they will have learned a lesson. Worst case scenario, they don't learn anything.

Ah, I gotcha.

Well even if that works- may I suggest having the int 25 guy having reinforcements?

Leaving a bad guy alone for a day after you've announced your presence is usually a pretty good way to find a *much* stronger force awaiting your return- especially when its that smart. (no clue what a mi-go is though)

If it has any way at all to get buddies there to help for the "good guys" return trip, it should so so- whether they get their "15 minute day" in or not.

-S


Selgard wrote:
Leaving a bad guy alone for a day after you've announced your presence is usually a pretty good way to find a *much* stronger force awaiting your return- especially when its that smart.

That is the plan. Instead of going through the complex and having many small fights as the module specifies the bad guys are now prepared and will fight in large groups in terrain they choose.

The cave is the location of the first fight. Flooding it will likely surprise the party, will allow the skum stationed there to swim, and will make fireballs much less effective. Unfortunately, I have little experience with underwater fighting and the rules are a bit lighter than I expected.


If I might make a suggestion the "Boss" is a very intelligent "guy", flooding the cavern completely will likely result in the party trying to teleport out.
Could he mostly flood the chamber leaving a small area of air at the top
giving his enemy the option of staying but at his advantage.

This would make for a far more challenging encounter with out the most likely option the party will just flee.

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