Wow this is an old thread.
then move along, nothing for you here
a game of 1000s pages of rules means there are that many posts; it is often easier to start a new one to get an answer/put a point across then dredge through older and tangled webs of thought
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NERF MARTIAL
NERF MARTIAL PLS
I CASTER FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE WHEN GOOD THINGS ARE NOT ME
WHEN MARTIAL ARCHES I USE ENTIRE TWO OF SPELL TO NEUTRALIZE INSTEAD OF ONE
OP OP OP OP OP OP NERF PLSSS
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Out of curiosity: How did he get 7 attacks? With Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and 2 iteratives, he should only have 6 arrows in flight.
Even with 7 attacks a round, he would have to get over 35 points per shot to get 250 damage. Assuming a weapon master with a 16 str and a +3 bow, I get max damage at about 30 points per shot, and average damage is more like 25 points per shot. Adjusted for chance to hit against AC 31, it's around 21 points per shot.
This particular experience is an outlier--if your archer does this more than once, I'd audit his character.
(For comparison, a great-sword wielding weapon master or a barbarian with a furious great sword can easily average over 40 damage per hit, and adjusted for chance to hit AC 31, should easily average 37 points per hit. The archer and the two-handed fighter or barbarian should be very close in damage dealt on a full round attack.)
Being Mythic makes both of those things incredibly easy. Even outside of Mythic, it's not too hard.
Attacks: 3 BAB + 1 Rapid Shot + 1 Manyshot + 1 haste
Damage (and this is going pure vanilla without even an archetype, or aasimar / tiefling for Arcane Strike, ect.)
4 Strength bonus
3 bow enhancement bonus
2 weapon specialization
4 weapon training w/gloves of dueling
6 Deadly Aim
4 competence (from the bard mentioned w/banner of the ancient kings)
2 morale (as above, good hope or flagbearer w/banner of the ancient kings)
1d8+25 per hit, avg 29.5.
Probably has Mythic Weapon Specialization (4 tiers or so?) for another +2 damage and Mythic Deadly Aim for another +3, making the avg 34.5 per shot.
That's all quite bare bones as well.
My biggest beef with Cluster Shot is once you have you have no reason to not use it as there is no penalty. So Clustered Shot everything on off hand chance they may have DR. I don't like this aspect. For me Cluster Shot should be at -2 to all attacks when you use it.
Schroedinger's Ranger has a quiver full of arrows to bypass the material DR. Not so much the combination DRs, the alignment DRs, the epic DR, - DR, etc.
I don't think a quiver full of a bunch of arrows is going help a ranger stuck in box where you don't if the ranger is alive, dead or both until you open the box. <grin>
NERF MARTIAL
NERF MARTIAL PLS
I CASTER FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE WHEN GOOD THINGS ARE NOT ME
WHEN MARTIAL ARCHES I USE ENTIRE TWO OF SPELL TO NEUTRALIZE INSTEAD OF ONE
OP OP OP OP OP OP NERF PLSSS
I'd rather look at it like this. Should a level 7 archer have damage comparable to a 6th level spell available every single round? Should a 12 level paladin archer be able to statistically kill a balor alone if he wins initiative?
I'm all for making marshals better but archery simply has too much going for it. A single change (Cannot rapid with many) doesn't make it not the best style it just means instead of being 80 damage ahead of everyone you're 40 damage ahead.
Caster are not meant to do the damage that martials do so I don't mind.
Also a 12th level paladin is not likely to one round a balor without crits. If he gets lucky with the rolls that is an an exception so it should not be used as a standard. Even if I run a balor straight(no changing feats, etc) out of the book I am sure I am killing a 12th level paladin 99% of the time. As for that 1%, everyone gets lucky sometimes.
Archery does not do the most damage. They just have the advantage of being able to full attack from almost anywhere on the field. Yes in the end that means they output the most damage, but since they don't have the most DPR, the problem with one rounding your monsters is not with archery.
My biggest beef with Cluster Shot is once you have you have no reason to not use it as there is no penalty. So Clustered Shot everything on off hand chance they may have DR. I don't like this aspect. For me Cluster Shot should be at -2 to all attacks when you use it.
I do agree that it bypasses DR to easily. I did not like the golfbag effect from 3.5, but DR is a joke now. I am sure a martial version will eventually be made.
edit: I don't think it is broken since it alone is not a game changer on a major level, but it does main archers have to be taken down quickly(more quickly than before) must like casters do.
Boost hit points until all your characters get a chance to hit it a few times. That's what I do. The only advantage the archer gets is hitting first for a full attack because he is ranged. If you want combats to last and everyone to have fun hitting things, you have to boost the hit points to a level that allows it.
3E/Pathfinder game designed failed to provide adequate defensive abilities to big creatures, especially hit points. You have to do it yourself if want enemies to last.
Yep. Archery and two-hander fighting are pretty much the best fighting styles in the game. Everything else is viable, but not nearly as powerful. Pathfinder archery is like 1st or 2nd edition two-weapon fighting. So much better than any other option it makes all other options appear weak. Not sure why the game designers did it that way, but they must have loved archers when making the game. A whole lot of feats and classes that continue to make it better and better keep coming out.
Maximizing hit points can only go so far. We're playing Carrion Crown and its just occurred to all of us because none of the casters we fight actually use spells like fickle wind and wind wall, that clustered shots takes away the fun of all the melee characters.
As common as those spells are to PCs they don't show up often with NPCs villains and monsters. Our GM maximized the hp of two bosses, took every healing item in the area off other NPCs to apply to their health, and added some additional hp for good measure. She killed both bosses in 3 rounds, 4 if you include the surprise round. Before all but one melee character could get 2 hits on a single boss.
I think people are focusing too much on comparing the potential damage to other classes or comparing it to magic weapons as opposed to comparing their average damage output per round to the amount of hit points appropriate CR encounters have.
Archers already get to full attack significantly more often than melee making their damage output per round higher in general. Whats the point of throwing in clustered shot on top of that? Why give them potential for even more damage when they have so much to begin with?
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Frankly - the feat that bugs me the most about archers isn't clustered shot, manyshot, or any of the other feats that let them do extra damage.
It's point blank master.
If archers were just the machine-guns that they are, but weren't able to get rid of their Achilles Heel, it wouldn't bother me.
Sure - that archer did the most damage. But he'd have been hosed if he didn't have his sword & board buddy out front keeping him from being charged & boxed in. Nope! With point blank master - he doesn't really care much.
The only other real disadvantage of the bow is that it's pretty easy to sunder. But if the DM does that very often, they're a jerk.
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Or the archer could just five foot step...
Against one opponent yes. (Unless they have counter-feats such as step up.)
That's why I mentioned being boxed in. If the archer is flanked, there's nowhere for him to five foot step where at least one of them won't be able to hit him.
Or if he's pinned up against a wall by a single opponent for that matter. I've bull-rushed archers into walls on the charge for that very reason.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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If you're a decent archer, the only time Clustered Shots is decisive is against DR/-. Keep a quiver full of durable special material arrows, oils of bless weapon/align weapon, etc. and Clustered Shots becomes much less important.Applying the oil of align weapon is a standard action that could have been used for a full attack.
Also, not all archers know the DR of the monster they are facing. Not all party compositions can make monster lore knowledge checks.The archer with no Clustered Shots is expending standard actions to apply oils of align weapon OR expending full-round actions testing the DR of the enemy they are facing.
The archer with Clustered Shots full-attacks every round.
It's an opportunity cost. One feat all the time, vs. a standard action some of the time. In general, I'd rather use the feat for something else and have to take an extra standard action now and then to apply an oil.
You cannot use a longbow while mounted, but you can use a composite longbow.
You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted.
Yeah I think cluster shot is the only feat I've ever considered banning for my home game. So far no one has taken it so I haven't had to. I think they don't take it cause their afraid Ill ban it (Its not like I won't let them replace it. jeez guys.) It makes DR practically irrelevant once the archer has and can hit about 3 shots.
Oh I haven't banned leadership but I only allow it when we have small parties. Its slows down game play to much otherwise.
I just treat leadership like another party member joined thats is slightly lower level then the rest. Its not that big of a deal.
Also lets describe it a different way this feat available at level 6 adds 5 damage to every attack past the first. or if the enemy has dr 10 10 damage to every attack past the first. etc. Suddenly all the build in mechanics that are meant to encourage players to diversify to get through DR are meaningless. Its better then almost any other feat out there.
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I have never seen proof of that lady J. Archery always seems strong ever game I've seen it used.
I'm just going to have to disagree. DR I have used to balance out crazy min-maxed toons before. It was big help a feat like cluster shot would have been problematic granted I could of done something else but DR was simplest.
I don't know I think its stronger then ever other feat option out there by a bit. the more attacks you have and the more DR your opponent has the stronger it gets. adamantium golem for example 15 DR if I have 6 attacks That is basically like get +75 to damage from that one feat. It only has like 205 hp so that is huge. Trivializes the golem imo. The cr 19 feels like a push over.
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Alright well I don't feel like spending the time to argue further right now. maybe tomorrow night.
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thing is archery is literally garbage with out cluster shot
My archer Paladin begs to differ.
with out it pretty much anything with dr5 will shut you down unless you are going with some hyper optimized build at my level of optimization were each attack will be doing 24 damage minimum.... a typical archer will be doing on average 11 damage per shot at mid levels meaning dr 5 is half your damage for each attack
Or, you know, you get a magic bow. Seriously, even if you don't spring for (or can't yet afford) the +5 model that tells (almost) all DR to get stuffed a +1 holy and a few choice arrows will bypass 90% of the DR you're likely to encounter until you can afford something better. Of course, in the case of my bowadin, you just smite and tell all DR to piss off. It doesn't take a whole lot of optimization to build a desent archer at mid levels. Some, certainly, but it's not hard.
+1 Holy Bow, Cold Iron arrows, a couple of Adamantine Blanches and another couple of Silver Blanches and you are ready to go.
It's not even too expensive.
I've always thought that DRs were supposed to be overcome one way or another. When you face an opponent of the appropriate CR I think that the ability to overcome certain DRs by the group is assumed by either feats, gear, different sources of damage, etc.
When my group wasn't able to overcome some relevant DR for a reason fights tended to become more difficult than the CR assumed, so I don't see there's anything unbalancing there.
The opposite is also true: why waste a feat when you could just spend some money?
It's a matter of taste. It depends on which resource is more scarce and you need the most: money or feats.
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Or, you know, you get a magic bow. Seriously, even if you don't spring for (or can't yet afford) the +5 model that tells (almost) all DR to get stuffed a +1 holy and a few choice arrows will bypass 90% of the DR you're likely to encounter until you can afford something better
You seen the newest FAQ? Has anyone since this thread was necro'd? It was like, last month.
The enhancement bonus on a ranged weapon no longer allows you to bypass material DR. Just magic and (if your bow has the aligned special abilities) aligned DR. You otherwise need to get higher enhancement projectiles or material projectiles. Not that it's particularly hard or expensive to do the latter, but the former gets VERY expensive. This is significantly worse for firearm users.
It's been recently heavily nerfed (although, it was technically ALWAYS like this, it's just that people misunderstood the rule) to such a degree that you kind of need Clustered Shots if you don't want to spend large sums of gold.
TO CONCLUSION, PIZAO AM NERFING SOMETHING AND MAKING SOMETHING ELSE EVEN CRAZIER AWESOME.
THAT AM SEEMING ABOUT RIGHT.
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because the feat saves you time and hassle and also doesn't set you back massive amount towards getting a +5 bowThe opposite is also true: why waste a feat when you could just spend some money?
It's a matter of taste. It depends on which resource is more scarce and you need the most: money or feats.
Not by much, plus if you're not playing a fighter or ranger that feat is way more valuable.
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Or, you know, you get a magic bow. Seriously, even if you don't spring for (or can't yet afford) the +5 model that tells (almost) all DR to get stuffed a +1 holy and a few choice arrows will bypass 90% of the DR you're likely to encounter until you can afford something betterYou seen the newest FAQ? Has anyone since this thread was necro'd? It was like, last month.
The enhancement bonus on a ranged weapon no longer allows you to bypass material DR. Just magic and (if your bow has the aligned special abilities) aligned DR. You otherwise need to get higher enhancement projectiles or material projectiles. Not that it's particularly hard or expensive to do the latter, but the former gets VERY expensive. This is significantly worse for firearm users.
It's been recently heavily nerfed (although, it was technically ALWAYS like this, it's just that people misunderstood the rule) to such a degree that you kind of need Clustered Shots if you don't want to spend large sums of gold.
Well, that's lame. And it basically makes clustered shots a necessity at higher levels...unless you're a Paladin or you want to layer on the alignments (holy axiomatic anarchic would cover most) then grab some durable ammo of different types.
Also that's totally joining "magic sparkles" on the list of FAQs I'm absolutely going to ignore in games I run.
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if your not playing something that gets bonus feats you probably shouldn't be playing an archer anywayNot by much, plus if you're not playing a fighter or ranger that feat is way more valuable.because the feat saves you time and hassle and also doesn't set you back massive amount towards getting a +5 bowThe opposite is also true: why waste a feat when you could just spend some money?
It's a matter of taste. It depends on which resource is more scarce and you need the most: money or feats.
Again, my Paladin begs to differ
alright I got a little time. My issue is I think it is too good to just be a feat. Its far better then a lot of other feats out there by multiple factors. That is my real issue if you compare it to another must have feat you can get -6 to hit for +12 to damage. Clustered shot gives so much more then that.
If it reduced all DR by 5 Id be fine with it.
The way it is makes it scales better then so many other feats. Your really making my own point for me Its so good that it makes it so you don't have to go down a standard route of tactics to defeat enemies all you need is one feat. If that designed went to other feats it would throw the entire system out of whack.
Monster attacks. archer full attacks. monster dies. end encounter. cost about 5-8 arrows.
J you say golems should die easy. In that case their is still a problem. a CR 19 encounter should not die the first round because of one feat selection. its trivializes the game.
If an encounter is ended by one spell or one round of attacks and its at their CR I feel that is a problem. I know I keep hearing that Wizards cast this or that and end the encounters just like that. well I have a problem with that too. It turns high level play into rocket tag.
I would just like to see things that end up turning high level play into rocket tag be removed.
(also paladins do not get bonus feats and i'm pretty sure paladin is one of the best archers, or so the so many posters seem to think. I've not personally played a paladin that focuses archery. )
Did someone say 'trivializing the game'?
Did someone say 'trivializing the game'?
Another good example of something I would like cleaned up^^
The only way high level play stops being like that is straight up reworking the system from the ground up. Which probably isn't going to happen. More to the point, monsters suffer from this as much as PC's given that we have such wonderful examples like a Balor's Quickened Telekinesis letting it grab and stab anyone it wants from a very, very long distance away. And that's just one example. Rocket tag is practically built into the system after a certain point.
Hey I'm ok with it for monsters. Its like 4v1 that way monster is the under dog.