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So fair disclosure I have spent the last 2 days at work doodling stat blocks trying to figure out how to make a Paladin be what I want it to be and meet the nebulous DPR requirements. Then I spent a time telling myself that a 2H or archer Paladin would be ok. I just could not buy it for myself. Other people can RP what they care to and I think that is dandy but for me my cowboys smoke Marlboros and my Paladins are sword and board.
So concept is: Sword and Board (defensive) Paladin for PFS> High Charisma face style. I think I really just need to get to survive until level 2 and Once LoH and the saves bonus kick in I should be fine. I have played a number of Paladins before but I can't recall playing a level 1.
So since I cannot get this on my own or have no confidence in what I have:
Human
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16+2
Feats Power attack & Furious focus
Traits
Rich (it is a bad choice but half plate)
Eyes and Ears of the City (I wanted to take dangerously curious since I have that Cha but so few skills etc... and hard to sword and board with a wand)
Skills
Diplomacy
Perception
Knowledge Religion
Thanks in advance for all the help. I feel like I am just running in circles.
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I am not sure about where some of those questions lead.
Heavy shield two hands? No but what are you talking about.
Multiclass would be very far off if at all and it becomes unlikely.
Sword and Board in one? You mean like a spiked shield? Not really what I am looking for but as far as answering all rule requirements spectacularly that does it.
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Thank you so much for the suggestions.
Carn, I think that feat is in Advanced Race Guide. I don't have a copy yet. Keep looking for it to be available on Amazon or FLNGS but haven't seen it yet. Not sure if that book is legal for Pathfinder Society yet guess that is something I could ask in the PFS forums.
End Target level is 12 in PFS not much more going on beyond that level.
Thanks again.
Are you talking about the Rich Parents trait? The one that increases starting wealth to 900 gp? If so, that trait isn't PFS-legal.
Pathfinder Character Traits Web Enhancement (Available at paizo.com/traits)
Feat: Additional Traits; Traits: all traits are legal except for the following: Hedge Magician, Magical Knack, Natural-Born Leader, and Rich Parents
If you're doing weapon + shield, might as well go Scimitar for the better criticals.
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Good catch Tels! I am sure I would have checked that before going. Yep absolutely sure. No but really thank you.
Carn thanks for the look up. I will have to look at that but I am working now and we inexplicably block that domain (but not the Paizo SRD.) It works much better for point buy.
Maybe not just longsword and heavy shield but it is the romanticized idea that I have. I have been running Kingmaker for what seems like forever and PFS is my chance to get away from it.
Again I am deeply indebted to each of you for all the help!
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I might suggest picking up Dangerously Curious since Rich Parents isn't legal. Then as soon as you can, UMD a wand of Lead Blades or Enlarge Person for additional damage dice on your attacks.
Avoid Furious Focus because you won't be 2H a weapon (a requirement to activate the feat) while using a weapon+hvy shield combo. Some feats you may want to look at for a defensive paladin are: Friendly Switch, Greater Mercy, Saving Shield.
For PFS, scimitar isn't going to make much of a difference until you're wanting to pick up a keen weapon or tacking a significant amount of static damage onto your weapon. That'd probably be around lvl 6, which means half your PFS career is gone by. You're not going to notice a reduction in damage going with a weapon that lacks an 18-20 threat range for lower levels, particularly if you're not going with a damage-focused build.
Traits - don't pick up Dangerously Curious as a trait unless you're taking an archetype that dumps paladin spellcasting. You'll have enough out-of-combat wand utility with your class spell list. Also, you can't take Rich Parents as any traits that increase starting gps are not legal for Society play.
I'm currently running a defense/tactical PFS paladin that seems to work decently. At 3rd lvl, he's running with Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Friendly Switch for feats and using flail+hvy shield. PFS has enough maneuver-susceptible opponents that it is a viable build... between the trips, disarms and repositions (AoOs don't mean much vs AC 24 in tier 3-4 scenarios) along with Friendly Switching it more than makes up for any reduction in damage output.
Sword Oath has that clause that if you use anything but a longsword, then you lose the benefit of the feat until you receive an Atonement spell.
You could take the Sword Scion trait, it gives you +1 to hit and maneuvers with a longsword or Aldori dueling sword.
Some things you may want to keep in mind and get when you can:
Silver Smite Bracelet;
Litany of Righteousness spell;
As much as the feat is hated, Antagonize isn't half bad if you use the Diplomacy aspect. I know Intimidate is broken as all hell, but Diplomacy isn't nearly as bad.
The Silver Smite and Litany of Righteousness will make you nearly an unstoppable force. Especially if you take the Oath of Vengeance archetype.
Sword Oath has that clause that if you use anything but a longsword, then you lose the benefit of the feat until you receive an Atonement spell.
You could take the Sword Scion trait, it gives you +1 to hit and maneuvers with a longsword or Aldori dueling sword.
Some things you may want to keep in mind and get when you can:
Silver Smite Bracelet;
Litany of Righteousness spell;
As much as the feat is hated, Antagonize isn't half bad if you use the Diplomacy aspect. I know Intimidate is broken as all hell, but Diplomacy isn't nearly as bad.The Silver Smite and Litany of Righteousness will make you nearly an unstoppable force. Especially if you take the Oath of Vengeance archetype.
Antagonize isn't that broken since you have to use a standard action to use it, meaning, you can't even attack, is language dependant, is a mind effect and worst of all, it only works once a day per target, some people have overrated that feat way too much, granted it was broken with the-next-to-impossible-save, which has been errata'ed.
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Longsword and heavy shield is a poor option, unfortunately. The reason is you no longer have a free hand to swift action lay on hands yourself.
If you want a heavy shield, go with blackbloodtroll's idea of a shield held in two hands, or else go with a cestus as your weapon. If you aren't happy with those weapon choices, a light shield or buckler would be a better choice for you.
Your skills with this character may be a bit low, and skills in PFS are very important. I would suggest this for stats:
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 15
The lower charisma isn't going to hurt much, especially because you can increase it at level 4. The extra intelligence will bring you up to 5 skills/level, which is a world of difference compared with 3. You'll especially want to upgrade your physical skills, because of how much your AC penalty is going to be bringing you down.
As others have mentioned, Furious Focus is no good for this build, because it's only useful when wielding a weapon in two hands. If you want to do that with a spiked heavy shield, you'll do fine, but if you want to stick with shield and sword (and make sure it's a light shield from level 2 on), then I would suggest Weapon Focus or perhaps Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Falcata.
Hope I helped!
Longsword and heavy shield is a poor option, unfortunately. The reason is you no longer have a free hand to swift action lay on hands yourself.
I've had two separate V-C's tell me a free hand is not required for a paladin to self-heal, and that while the ability's wording has led to confusion the intent was to clarify you only need one free hand when touching others as a standard action to heal them despite the plural nature of the ability's name. My personal play experience in PFS has always been that my paladin can swift heal himself in combat without having to wear a smaller shield and engage in pedantic free-action-item-juggling.
Has there ever been even an informal word on the forums from Paizo on the subject? There has never been anything in a faq or errata that I've noticed, which just leaves a number of lengthy rules debate threads with differing opinions.
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You can buy the weapon cord from Adventurer's Armory for 1 cp, which lets you pick up your dropped weapon as a swift action instead of a move. So you can get an open hand for Lay on Hands, and then recover your sword without losing your full attack.
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You don't really need a big Con with a paladin, especially since are holding a shield all the time. 12-13 is fine. d10 hitpoints, favored class and Lay on Hands will serve you just fine.
There's a feat that allows a pally to add spells from various other spell lists and it requires an Intelligence score of 13, so definitely keep your Int decent. Wisdom is not that useful, but lowering it more than 2 points is just asking for a kick to the teeth before divine grace kicks in. Not to mention, it's pretty integral for many useful skills, like Heal, Sense Motive and Perception.
The shield issue with LoH is a deep mire that I don't want to tackle, but buckler solves that. A light shield might too, depending on your GM. Ask beforehand, if possible.
You can buy the weapon cord from Adventurer's Armory for 1 cp, which lets you pick up your dropped weapon as a swift action instead of a move. So you can get an open hand for Lay on Hands, and then recover your sword without losing your full attack.
Even if you subscribe to the notion that a paladin requires a free hand to self-heal (which I don't), this will not work. You only have one swift action per turn, so you can either lay on hands or recover your weapon.
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You can buy the weapon cord from Adventurer's Armory for 1 cp, which lets you pick up your dropped weapon as a swift action instead of a move. So you can get an open hand for Lay on Hands, and then recover your sword without losing your full attack.Even if you subscribe to the notion that a paladin requires a free hand to self-heal (which I don't), this will not work. You only have one swift action per turn, so you can either lay on hands or recover your weapon.
It's not perfect, but it's doable.
First turn:
Attack, drop weapon, lay on hands as a swift action (still threaten with shield, so no one loses flank)
Second turn:
Grab weapon as a swift action, attack.
You only get lay on hands once every two rounds this way, but it can work. I don't believe you can use lay on hands without a free hand, but if you're only going to be playing locally and your local VCs allow it, you won't have a problem. At certain tables (including mine), you would have an issue.
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Thank you so much everyone.
I am still reading through some of the stuff suggested. I am going to put a newer clean build once I get to work tonight.
Honestly it does not look like I am getting much but +2 AC for a long time +headache from my shield. Is this why 2H is the preffered build after Paladin Archer?
Maybe not just longsword and heavy shield but it is the romanticized idea that I have. I have been running Kingmaker for what seems like forever and PFS is my chance to get away from it.Again I am deeply indebted to each of you for all the help!
LOL!!!
I'm in the process of making a paladin FOR Kingmaker!!! Also longsword and Board.... stats freakishly similiar to your own :)
Thank you so much everyone.
I am still reading through some of the stuff suggested. I am going to put a newer clean build once I get to work tonight.
Honestly it does not look like I am getting much but +2 AC for a long time +headache from my shield. Is this why 2H is the preffered build after Paladin Archer?
One reason is that if you armour yourself up too high, your foes can go after juicier targets, and so while you're protected, you're not drawing your foes attacks onto you (who can take it). Two-handers do more damage and present somewhat more attractive targets to attack, and the feats seem to work out a lot more effectively. Sword and board is not impossible to work with or use, but if you're in a party of adventurers, it's not always the most group-friendly option.
Feel free to check out my paladin guide for any useful advice.
Can you use lay on hand using your pinky? the ability says you have to touch yourself, just use your pinky while holding your sword/shield ;p
Regarding having a free hand for casting or whatnot:
A Light shield or Buckler will allow you to have a free hand for casting.
Switch sword to shield hand (free action)
Cast spell or lay on hands (whatever action this takes)
Switch sword back to active hand (free action)
Only heavy and tower shields prevent this.
- Gauss
Why not drop strength all together and stack it into dexterity. If you're really worried about it use a finesse weapon with your shield and get Weapon Finesse feat. This nets you:
+3 Attack
+3 AC
Consistent hitting at low levels, and at high due to BAB.
Even if you subscribe to the notion that a paladin requires a free hand to self-heal (which I don't),
Well, if you have a generous DM you may be able to get away with it. If you (OP) have an DM who is strict about the rules, it is important to know that sword and boarding with a heavy shield means you will not be able to use lay on hands in combat, either on yourself or on an ally. Since you mention you will be counting on Lay on Hands after level 2... it may be good to consider your options.
You also may encounter similar difficulties using your spells in combat (and even a generous DM would not likely be letting you get away with casting somatic spells without a free hand).
So this sort of thing is something you will have to take steps to mitigate. The weapon cord is one way.
Kybryn, Dexterity only grants +3AC if the person is not using heavy armor. Ultimately heavy armor is superior if you do not care about movement speeds.
Light Armor maximum: +4AC +4dexterity (+8AC combined)
Medium Armor maximum: +6AC +3dexterity (+9AC combined)
Heavy Armor maximum: +9AC +1dexterity (+10AC combined)
Mithral does not change this ratio of +1 per armor category.
Assuming you have all 3 armor proficiencies the main reason to prefer light armor (or mithral medium armor) over Heavy is if you want to move at full speed. A lesser reason is if you really hate Armor check penalties but there are ways around that.
- Gauss
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Bodhizen! I have read your excellent guide and the accompanying discussion. Both are great. I was really looking for a way to make this work even on a subpar level.... which by the rules seems implausible.
I mean for the meager benefits a shied gives you to make it even more cumbersome to work out. For either sword and board to work or even twf you have to be using small or a buckler (+1ac) which lets be honest you are just carrying for the magical bonuses on it. Which I will not have to worry about for a while.
So from my time as a Scadian (long past) I carried what D&D would consider a tower and I sure that I could touch myself with a hand without dropping either. That being said D&D nor Pathfinder is constrained by reality. So I would not enforce that nor do I on the Paladin that plays in my game. I can see that the rules are written that way and am not disputing that in any way. I am just saying that it is entirely disheartening and takes any viability out of this build. So back to formula as they say. Holy crap two handing.
I play with a guy with about the exact array you posted in the first post.He sucks more than about any other PC I've ever seen... It may be due to the player though.
Oath of vengeance is a good start if you want to have CHA>STR (I'd still go for higher STR though). Consider that once both stats are high you are not going to see a difference for roleplaying purposes.
When I played a S&B paladin I went for DEX 12 and STR>CHA and did fine (the other players where not that good at optimizing or not trying too hard) by relying on buffs: I always had at least divine power up (plenty of pearl of power 1) and now there a are a few other nice buffs. This works only if your group don't jump at enemies right away. Bonded weapon can be useful but it's another round to get it going, which is not that good.
On the lay on hand stuff, I don't see where the manual says that you have to touch yourself (you are a paladin, your god is watching you) to use it. My interpretation is that you don't need too, like if you were always touching yourself (I know, the joke is getting old by now...).
One reason is that if you armour yourself up too high, your foes can go after juicier targets, and so while you're protected, you're not drawing your foes attacks onto you (who can take it). Two-handers do more damage and present somewhat more attractive targets to attack, and the feats seem to work out a lot more effectively. Sword and board is not impossible to work with or use, but if you're in a party of adventurers, it's not always the most group-friendly option.Feel free to check out my paladin guide for any useful advice.
In my group the AC of the S&B paladin with DEX 10 is definitely not so high as to make other better targets: both the rogue's and the ranger's ACs are on par, and more often than not higher than the paladin's. The sorcerer's in one round surpasses everyone else. Only the witch has a significantly lower AC. Sure, levels 5-8, where you can enchant your shield and the others can't you really have a high AC, later though the others usually have ways to catch up with you.
Silver bracelet are a nice finishing touch (especially for a oath of vengeance paladin), but they are expensive and don't help you suck less when not smiting.
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Remember that it's PFS. Nobody "sucks" unless their contribution is zero*. A 16 STR character with full bab and heavy armor that can use healing wands can do a lot. Being a face is pretty easy to boot with such a, unnaturally for a regular PFS character, high Charisma. You are not doing a skill-focused fighter or a heavy melee rogue here after all.
I'd stop worrying overmuch. You'll be pretty horrible in ranged combat, but carrying a smattering of alchemical items for the occasion and, later on, potions of fly, can migitate that somewhat. Play what you want. I guarantee it'll work out.
*Oh man, I know it's a can of worms, but boy do some builds fare horribly in PFS. Particularly the ones that take a couple of levels to "activate" or pay off. Or barbarians with no AC whose players have read internet guides and believe Invulnerable Rager will eventually make it work as long as one can survive a couple of levels with an AC score of 14 :P
@Gausse what are you talking about? Mithr increases max dex bonus by 2, netting +3, which wa my suggestion to begin with. Nobody wears full plate at level one. You're better off wearing scale male which nets you 8 until you can afford mithral fullplate which nets you 12 if ou have 16 dex
Add dodge, shield, or deflection and you're legally And realistically cranking your ac way up at lvl 1.
Kybryn what I am talking about:
Plate Mail has a max AC bonus of +1. Setting someone's Dex at +3 when they will just get plate mail later is a waste of a good stat.
Later on IF you can afford Mithral Plate (a 9000gp investment above the Plate) THEN you can increase your dex via Cat's Grace (via a friendly spellcaster or a potion) or via a belt of dexterity +4.
I do not feel like wasting valuable points on an ability which I will only use for a level or two, and then not have available for another 5 levels.
Level 1: Scale Mail (+3dex helps)
Level 2: Breastplate (+3dex helps)
Level 3: Platemail (+3dex is too much) vs +1 Breastplate (+3dex helps and costs 300gp less)
Level 4: +1 Platemail (+3dex is too much) vs +2 Breastplate (+3dex helps but it costs 3700gp more)
Level 9: +3 Platemail (+3dex is too much) vs +1 Mithral Platemail (+3dex helps but it costs 1000gp more)
So, from levels 4 until 9 you are not making use of your +3dex and it is an almost wasted stat.
Your suggestion is to waste valuable ability score points and a feat on a stat that will not be used for almost half the lifespan of a PFS character. When the character can finally purchase mithral armor instead of wasting the ability score points the character can also buff themselves with Cat's Grace to make full use of that armor. Alternately, they can pay for a belt of dexterity (although I think that is a subpar resource expenditure).
- Gauss
Gunslingeraz, thank you for your words of praise. I do endeavour to provide the best possible advice in order to achieve the most effective results. My apologies that the sword and board paladin, while certainly a viable build, has not been determined to be the most effective choice, and that I have no better advice to offer to you.
On the lay on hand stuff, I don't see where the manual says that you have to touch yourself (you are a paladin, your god is watching you) to use it. My interpretation is that you don't need too, like if you were always touching yourself (I know, the joke is getting old by now...).
Perhaps I can assist.
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.
The emphases are mine.
Wow Gauss, your preference is more costly in GP than you calculate, which is ironic since you criticize my build for being costly. Don't forget the COST of the belt and the wasted cost of potions an wands of cats grace.
Your preference is fine, I've got log term optimization in mind. If one thing we've learned, you feel strongly about your opinion, and are quick to criticize. Bravo.
Kybryn, does it help your position to criticise in return?