Please help me with this. I have seen a number of posts on this subject but there seems to be no solid consensus on this question.
Does a monks weapon damage scale with the monk unarmed damage? From the rules it appears that they do not but please help me understand how that makes a bit of sense. How is Bruce Lee any less deadly with nunchucks than with his fists/feet? It is fairly easy to make the argument that he is more deadly but he's at least equally as dangerous.
If they do not scale then it seems likely that most monks would abandon there weapons at a relatively low level and always go unarmed but this is lame because the monk weapons add flavor to a character. I understand the argument about enchantment and damage type, slashing/piercing vs bludgeoning, but this is a fruitless argument when a level 20 monk's base damage is 2d10 vs 1d6 for most weapons. Not to mention a monk can't use stun and his fists are magical/lawful/adamantite.
Additionally it appears that a monk can just enchant his unarmed strikes, "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
Please let me know if this has been settled of if this is the most poorly thought out set of rules in D20.
Please help me with this. I have seen a number of posts on this subject but there seems to be no solid consensus on this question.
Does a monks weapon damage scale with the monk unarmed damage? From the rules it appears that they do not but please help me understand how that makes a bit of sense. How is Bruce Lee any less deadly with nunchucks than with his fists/feet? It is fairly easy to make the argument that he is more deadly but he's at least equally as dangerous.
No, they don't. I agree, it would be cool if they did, and I think that a ki-focus weapon should apply unarmed damage dice instead of it's own damage dice, but that's not the way it is.
If they do not scale then it seems likely that most monks would abandon there weapons at a relatively low level and always go unarmed but this is lame because the monk weapons add flavor to a character. I understand the argument about enchantment and damage type, slashing/piercing vs bludgeoning, but this is a fruitless argument when a level 20 monk's base damage is 2d10 vs 1d6 for most weapons. Not to mention a monk can't use stun and his fists are magical/lawful/adamantite.
I agree, it is lame and most monk weapons are lame, only the temple sword is even mediocre. However a monk does gain something from having weapons:
Full enhancement (up to +10 equivalence)Materials that bypass DR
Damage types that bypass DR
Additionally it appears that a monk can just enchant his unarmed strikes, "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
Please let me know if this has been settled of if this is the most poorly thought out set of rules in D20.
No, he can't. A weapon has to be masterwork to be enchanted and unarmed strikes are not masterwork, that is the official line. As it stands the only enhancement available is the amulet of mighty fists, capped at +5 and expensive at half the price.
Edit: Dabbler posted while I was doing my write-up, I'll leave this up because it goes in a little more detail.
I leave the forums for a year, and this old thread pops up again, I believe it a sign.
Weapons do not scale with unarmed strike damage. So if you use a Temple Sword, it stays at d8, and doesn't get bigger.
On enchanting unarmed strike: Before you can make a weapon magical, it needs to be masterwork, there are no current methods of making a Monk's body masterwork, so there is currently no way to make a Monk's body a magical weapon either.
On Unarmed vs. Weapons: My answer is based on min-maxed theory crafting, your campaign experience may vary. Manufactured weapons (Like Temple Swords, Nodachi, and others) are better for monks who want to deal damage. this is for three reasons.
1. They can be enchanted, this not only increases both toHit and damage, but also helps bypass the ever so frustrating DR. As of now, unarmed strike can only bypass DR using the Martial Artist archetype, or being at a level that consider your unarmed strike as lawful.
2. They're cheaper. To get a +attak/damage stat for unarmed strike you have to use an amulet of might fists. The price for one amulet is over twice as much for a single weapon, and is still more expensive than buying two magical weapons, putting the monk at a cost disadvantage if they go unarmed. On top of that, AoMF cannot bypass DR without using up the slots for special enhancements like Holy, while a manufactured weapon only needs to reach a certain point threshold.
3. Crit range is more important than damage die. While having 2d10 damage dice make you feel like hot-stuff, most of the damage in the game comes from modifiers as opposed the size of the dice, so a Temple Sword is on average better than a lvl 20 fist.
On Stunning Fist: Ki is a +1 magical enhancment that allows it to be used with a manufactured weapon, so anyone interested in using both it and a temple sword just need to invest properly. Also, many of the monks alternatives to stunning fist like Ghost Kick or Elemental Fist only require that the monk be attacking, so the ki property isn't needed.
Thank you for the input... I worked out the math and you are correct that a comparison between a lv 20 monk using weapons vs unarmed reveals a large difference. This model assumes the monk has an 18 strength. Using the numerical averages...
Unarmed: 10 unarmed damage + 4 str = 14 x 7 attacks = 98
+5 Keen, Flaming Kama of Speed: 3.5 weapon + 4 str + 5 magical + 3.5 flaming = 16 x 8 attacks = 128
Beyond the +30 damage per round on average the +5 weapon hits 25% more often and with Keen will critical x2 as often.
Thank you for the help, this helped me better understand this rule. Still hard to flash 2d10 and expect my players to get confused/frustrated.
I agree, it's a pain. Here's a 13th level monk I built up for another thread as an example of building a decent monk (20 point buy, standard WBL, 13th level):
Icandu CR 12
Male Human (Vudrani) Monk 13
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +21
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DEFENSE
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AC 34, touch 30, flat-footed 25. . (+4 armor, +8 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 dodge) 37 with Crane Stance
hp 81 (13d8+13)
Fort +12, Ref +19, Will +16
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison; SR 23
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OFFENSE
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Spd 70 ft.
Melee +1 Mithral Kama +18/+13 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham +18/+13 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +19/+14 (2d6+10/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +18/+13 (1d8+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken +18/+13 (1d2+1/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
. . Flurry of Blows Unarmed Strike +21/+21/+16/+16/+11 (2d6+10/19-20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
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Str 10/12, Dex 20/26, Con 10/12, Int 14, Wis 16/20, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +21 (+23 Grappling+23 Tripping); CMD 40 (42 vs. Grapple42 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Critical:
Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist
(13/day) (DC 21), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
Traits Vagabond Child (urban): Disable Device, Wisdom in the Flesh: Climb
Skills Acrobatics +24, Appraise +3, Climb +20, Disable Device +32, Escape Artist +13, Heal +6, Intimidate +3, Knowledge
(Dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (History) +10, Knowledge (Local) +6, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Perception +21, Ride +12, Sense Motive
+21, Sleight of Hand +13, Stealth +24, Swim +8
Languages Common, Draconic, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ Abundant Step (Su), AC Bonus +8, Astrolabe, Earplugs, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point) (Ex), Ki
Defense (Su), Ki Pool (Su), Maneuver Training (Ex), Map Maker's Kit, Purity of Body (Ex), Ram, portable, Slow Fall 60' (Ex), Smoked
Goggles, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Vow of Truth (+2 Ki), Wholeness of Body (13
HP/use) (Su)
Combat Gear +1 Crossbow, Light, +1 Mithral Kama, Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken (50), Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham; Other
Gear Acid Flask (3), Alchemist's Fire Flask (3), Alkali Flask (3), Amulet of Mighty Fists agile +1, Astrolabe, Bedroll,
Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +6, Bladeguard, Blanket, winter, Bracers of Armor, +4, Caltrops (2), Chalk, 1 piece, Climber's kit,
Cloak of Resistance, +3, Crowbar, Earplugs, Everburning torch, Fishhook, Flint and steel, Goggles of Minute Seeing, Grappling hook,
Hammer, Handy Haversack (67 @ 129.64 lbs), Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Heatstone, Holy Water Flask (3), Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose
Prism, Ioun Stone, Pale Blue Rhomboid, Ioun Stone, Pink Rhomboid, Liquid Ice (3), Map Maker's Kit, Mirror, small steel, Oil of
Bless Weapon (2), Piton (10), Pole, 10-foot, Pot, iron, Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (2), Potion of Fly, Potion of Invisibility,
Potion of Remove Curse, Potion of Resist Acid 10, Potion of Resist Fire 10, Powder (2), Ram, portable, Rations, trail (per day)
(3), Ring of Protection, +2, Rope, silk (50 ft.) (2), Sack (empty), Sack (empty), Sewing needle, Smoked Goggles, Spade or shovel,
Spyglass, Sunrod (3), Tanglefoot bag (3), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Twine (50'), Whetstone
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
AC Bonus +8 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Astrolabe +2 navigation
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) You may make up to 9 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Earplugs +2 save vs. hearing effects, -5 hearing-based Perception.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+40') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point) (Ex) +13 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half
damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Map Maker's Kit +2 Circumstance for Survival to avoid becoming lost.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Ram, portable +2 to STR checks to break open a door, and allows a second helper (+2).
Slow Fall 60' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Smoked Goggles +8 save vs. visual effects, -4 sight-based Perception and you treat all opponents as having 20% concealment.
Spell Resistance (23) You have Spell Resistance.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (13 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Wisdom in the Flesh: Climb Climb becomes a Wisdom-based, class skill.
In my experience power-attack is not worth the trade-off for less than the best chances to hit, and the monk hasn't got them. While he may gain a lot from PA with a two-handed weapon, he doesn't get the added strength, and his lower attack bonus will come back to bite him hard if he tries it.
Nothing stopped 2h from being used in flurry you just could only make half your attacks with the 2h weapon and the other half with something else.
Bruce Lee was at most, 5th level, which means his unarmed strike deals 1d8. You'll have to read the entire article to get why I say that, but once you do, a lot of things become easier to grasp in terms of Pathfinder mechanics.
The current ruling on flurrying is 'ask your DM'. Some will allow one-weapon flurry, so hitting with the 2-hander as a flurry of blows is legal (and it certainly isn't broken). Some prefer the TWF interpretation, which means you have to make every other attack with a different weapon. As you can kick, this means it's a bit more limited, but still doable.