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Can I use Mage hand to pants somebody?


Rules Questions

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Silver Crusade

fairly simple question, but can I use mage hand to pants somebody who's not paying attention to his surroundings?

Liberty's Edge Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No:

Target one nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lbs.

Items worn or carried are not unattended objects.

Star Voter 2013

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If I'm GM, ABSOLUTELY!!

Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

In my group, it used to be a common trick to pull using cantrip back in 2nd edition, transposed to prestidigitation in third edition. The unspoken rule was that one never used such a tactic in combat, and it was only for playing pranks on stuffy NPCs, or random beach-goers, as it was way too over-powered a tactic for anything else. When just used as harmless fun to add to harmless roll-playing fluff, who cares?


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How about the open/close cantrip? Open belt buckle.


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Unfortunately, by RAW, probably not. And since there are so many players ready to jump on any possible exploit, allowing it might just open the door to abuse of the cantrip. Which is a shame since I think that's a cool idea.

I like the "open/close" approach.


Always the first question when concerning mage hand: does it weigh 5 lbs or less? He could be carrying lots of coin.

As funny as it could be, RAW is clear: just as Reckless pointed out, "unattended" puts the damper on that fun.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

When considering stuff like this, also consider that some players might not only dislike it for the unbalancing aspect, but also dislike it for being pointlessly juvenile. Do you want to be in a game where you can be 'pantsed without save' even if it's only in noncombat situations?

You set a dangerous precedent.


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You could use the AT's ranged sleight of hand ability to pickpocket the belt. Totally worth it for the 7 level investment.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Isn't "depanting" really just a Dirty Trick maneuver?


RAW, no you can't. But, if I were to allow it in a game, it would only be in a game where I could trust the players would only use it a handful of times over many sessions. If you fear your group too juvenile to understand when enough's enough with a joke, then don't use the Pantsing Variant of Mage Hand.

Silver Crusade

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Umbral Reaver wrote:

When considering stuff like this, also consider that some players might not only dislike it for the unbalancing aspect, but also dislike it for being pointlessly juvenile. Do you want to be in a game where you can be 'pantsed without save' even if it's only in noncombat situations?

You set a dangerous precedent.

that's WHY I want to do it.

Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

I suppose I should point out the main culprit in the cantrip pantsing wars those many long years ago was a gnome illusionist...

Dark Archive

harmor wrote:
Isn't "depanting" really just a Dirty Trick maneuver?

This.

I could see allowing it, but off of an adjusted Dirty Trick CM. Kind of like how telekinesis allows for grapple. From that spell:

Quote:
Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don't provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus, and you add your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.

So, the casters CMB for this would be (Caster Level + Casting Stat Bonus + Feats) vs their CMD. This would keep it balanced (as to get good use out of it, the caster would still need to spec in it some with feats, etc). I would also expect NPC's to be able to do the same. It may also shorten the duration of the spell to (from 1 hour to 1 round per level, or maybe just once).

Please note, this is houserule territory, as RAW for the spell says this is not possible.

The funny part is, you may be able to do this with Prestidigitation as it is written.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@ Happler:
5 lbs limit and Caster stat bonus don't mesh well. If I where to allow it at all I would use a strength 1 stat bonus (i.e. -5 to the CMD). That will limit it to juvenile pranks with limited combat effects.

If you allow a spellcaster to use its spellcasting stat he would get a large bonus to the CMD.

PRD wrote:

Prestidigitation

School universal; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range 10 ft.

Target, Effect, or Area see text

Duration 1 hour

Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no

Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. [b]It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters.[b] Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.

You need an extremely liberal interpretation of this cantrip to do any Dirty trick with it.


Could an Unseen Servant do it?


I like the idea but would probably not allow it with mage hand due to the abuse possiblities mentioned above.

However, I would allow it to be attempted with Pilfering Hand.


mage hand to hook a rope between thier pants and thier shoes, soon as they walk they pants themselves.

mage hand to tie shoes together also works with rope trick ;)

don't use mage hand on them use it indirectly on something that can directly effect them to bypass the unattended rule.

rope around sleeping guards neck ;) YANK :P

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PRD wrote:

Mage Hand

School transmutation; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target one nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lbs.

Duration concentration

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell's range.

The name notwithstanding, Mage hand isn't a hand at all. It is a tractor beam that can push, pull or move something, but can't tie shoelaces, ropes or any other object.


Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:

Mage Hand

School transmutation; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target one nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lbs.

Duration concentration

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell's range.

The name notwithstanding, Mage hand isn't a hand at all. It is a tractor beam that can push, pull or move something, but can't tie shoelaces, ropes or any other object.

and how do you tie your shoelaces ? by lifting and moving the string ?

besides you don't need to tie anything simply wrapping string/rope around shoes would suffice.

mage hand is vague and iconic being creative instead of blasting away with a fireball is often rewarded with your GM being flexible on its application.

but hey if you want to play mage hand as a lame tractor effect that's your choice


How often is 'creativity' used as an excuse to break the rules and whine about lameness when called out?


Umbral Reaver wrote:
How often is 'creativity' used as an excuse to break the rules and whine about lameness when called out?

Because Mage hand is such an OP broken spell when used creatively ?

uhuh


How do you define creatively?


Umbral Reaver wrote:
How do you define creatively?

the adverb form of create ?

how do you define create ? an imaginative thought ? an original idea ? a productive use of you waking mind ?


If you want to defend your stance, please do so maturely. Don't do that.

Far too often I've seen people want to use mage hand to disarm someone from across the room. That's not creativity. Get telekinesis if you want to do that. It's explicitly clear in the rules that telekinesis is made for ranged combat maneuvers and mage hand is not. In fact, most of the things suggested here would fall under the purview of telekinesis. Want to be creative? Get telekinesis and stop trying to wrangle cheating out of mage hand under the guise of creativity.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As others have said by RAW you couldn't but I think in reality it would depend on the GM. That would be something you would have to ask them. I think it should say instead of unattended, uncontested. Meaning it works on items in hands, or objects on a person as long as the person does not notice and/or try and stop it. That opens up a lot of things with out making it to much IMHO.


The way i see it
To create; To build, to cause to bring into being, to 'create' something that didn't exist prior to the action or in the same state.

or if your British, to make a fuss ;p


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Umbral Reaver wrote:

If you want to defend your stance, please do so maturely. Don't do that.

Far too often I've seen people want to use mage hand to disarm someone from across the room. That's not creativity. Get telekinesis if you want to do that. It's explicitly clear in the rules that telekinesis is made for ranged combat maneuvers and mage hand is not. In fact, most of the things suggested here would fall under the purview of telekinesis. Want to be creative? Get telekinesis and stop trying to wrangle cheating out of mage hand under the guise of creativity.

Sigh, if you want a proper response try asking a better worded question next time.

Mage hand to directly disarm is clearly covered by the unattended rule so .... how it that relevant to the conversation ?

A creative use of mage hand to disarm someone would be situationally applying 5lb of force to an unattended object to trigger a sequence of events that resulted in an outcome that could potentially disarm a creature though a 3rd party effect.

That description is intentionally vague because creative uses of mage hand depend on the unique environment your GM has come up with.

Rewarding a player for clever uses of their spells encourages a more enjoyable table experience for all.

If you've only ever played with people trying to justify their abusive interpretation of the rules with creativity, then I pity you and suggest you try finding a better calibur of player to play with.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Phasics wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:

Mage Hand

School transmutation; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target one nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lbs.

Duration concentration

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell's range.

The name notwithstanding, Mage hand isn't a hand at all. It is a tractor beam that can push, pull or move something, but can't tie shoelaces, ropes or any other object.

and how do you tie your shoelaces ? by lifting and moving the string ?

besides you don't need to tie anything simply wrapping string/rope around shoes would suffice.

mage hand is vague and iconic being creative instead of blasting away with a fireball is often rewarded with your GM being flexible on its application.

but hey if you want to play mage hand as a lame tractor effect that's your choice

Try it. Take a par of tweezers and make a knot moving a rope.

To make a knot you use 2 hands and several digits, you don't drag and drop something.
As Umbral Reaver said you guys are trying to make a cantrip into the telekinesis spell under the guise of being "creative".
In other words you are bending and twisting the rules to get more power at no cost.

Juts for the record, someone shoelaces aren't an unattended object. By the raw of the rules any object touching someone is an attended object.


Push buttons. Pull levers. That's all fine (unless it's a button or lever that would require a strength check, in which case you need a more forceful spell). Shove stuff around like a two year old with boxing gloves on.

Masterful manipulation is for higher level spells.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Phasics wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:

Mage Hand

School transmutation; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target one nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lbs.

Duration concentration

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell's range.

The name notwithstanding, Mage hand isn't a hand at all. It is a tractor beam that can push, pull or move something, but can't tie shoelaces, ropes or any other object.

and how do you tie your shoelaces ? by lifting and moving the string ?

besides you don't need to tie anything simply wrapping string/rope around shoes would suffice.

mage hand is vague and iconic being creative instead of blasting away with a fireball is often rewarded with your GM being flexible on its application.

but hey if you want to play mage hand as a lame tractor effect that's your choice

Try it. Take a par of tweezers and make a knot moving a rope.

To make a knot you use 2 hands and several digits, you don't drag and drop something.
As Umbral Reaver said you guys are trying to make a cantrip into the telekinesis spell under the guise of being "creative".
In other words you are bending and twisting the rules to get more power at no cost.

Juts for the record, someone shoelaces aren't an unattended object. By the raw of the rules any object touching someone is an attended object.

Pretty sure had you read just the 2nd line of that post you would have come across

"besides you don't need to tie anything simply wrapping string/rope around shoes would suffice."

which is an unattended object that is not tied but simply wrapped around.

try wrapping a piece of string around your legs several times, not tied to anything just loose , it stops you walking just fine until you spend a moment loosening it to step out


In fact, the spell may be even more restrictive than we are allowing.

Propel up to 15 feet as a move action. Is this the limit of its precision? Every 3 seconds you can give up to 5 pounds of unattended mass a ham-fisted lurch in one direction?


Seriously if you guys only experience with people using mage hand creatively is abusive then your really playing with the wrong type of people.

I use the group as my yard stick.
If both the GM and other players, laugh, crack up, or say things to the effect of "OMG that's beautiful" , then I know its a good creative use.

More importantly it enhances the session for everyone which is the whole point.


I've seen groups that use prestidigitation as a kind of 'wish' spell, capable of doing nigh omnipotent things but only for the purposes of japes and tomfoolery.

Does this mean they are having badwrongfun? No, absolutely not. If they are having fun, that's fine. They can do that if it's not spoiling their game.

But the moment someone comes into a public forum and says that prestidigitation can turn the BBEG bright pink, they relinquish all right to deny that the rules don't allow that.

Dark Archive

Umbral Reaver wrote:

...

But the moment someone comes into a public forum and says that prestidigitation can turn the BBEG bright pink, they relinquish all right to deny that the rules don't allow that.

Don't be silly, that is what a Core book Rod of Wonder is for. (at least on a % roll of 96-97, and only bright blue, purple, or green, unfortunately no pink).

While prestidigitation cannot change the BBEG bright pink, it could turn their throne or robes bright pink.

Or soil his robes, or make is food taste awful, etc..

that spell is pretty much the April Fools spell.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Phasics wrote:


Pretty sure had you read just the 2nd line of that post you would have come across
"besides you don't need to tie anything simply wrapping string/rope around shoes would suffice."

which is an unattended object that is not tied but simply wrapped around.

try wrapping a piece of string around your legs several times, not tied to anything just loose , it stops you walking just fine until you spend a moment loosening it to step out

To repeat it again with a longer explanation:

While unattended isn't clearly definite in the rules, the use of the word in several section of the rules, in particular the rules about damaging object, make fairly clear that as soon as an object touches someone it is attended.
So you can't wrap a rope several times around someone leg claiming that it is unattended. As soon as you start wrapping it it become an attended object.

Phasics wrote:

Seriously if you guys only experience with people using mage hand creatively is abusive then your really playing with the wrong type of people.

I use the group as my yard stick.
If both the GM and other players, laugh, crack up, or say things to the effect of "OMG that's beautiful" , then I know its a good creative use.

More importantly it enhances the session for everyone which is the whole point.

This is the rule forum, not the advice, suggestion or gamer talk forum, so when you claim that a spell can do something that is not intended to do and can't do by RAW your "creative" solution will be shoot down.

You can do anything you want at your table, but you should not use "creativity" to justify breaking the rules when speaking in the Rules section of the forum.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Happler wrote:


While prestidigitation cannot change the BBEG bright pink, it could turn their throne or robes bright pink.

As it will colour it at the rate of a 1' foot cube/round it should be a really small throne.

Dark Archive

Diego Rossi wrote:
Happler wrote:


While prestidigitation cannot change the BBEG bright pink, it could turn their throne or robes bright pink.
As it will colour it at the rate of a 1' foot cube/round it should be a really small throne.

Damned gnome BBEG (Big Bad Evil Gnomes) .

Or a cheap BBEG who just uses a wooden kitchen chair as a throne.


Wow. Time out kids. The OP just asked about pantsing.

You're all right; by RAW that's not how mage hand works so pantsing can't be done via mage hand (attended object) nor could it TIE a rope to the pants and then foot and thus force someone to pants themselves.

RAI - think about it; these are cantrips. Minor tricks apprentices use to amuse themselves. I'm sure an advanced action like a good pantsing COULD be accomplishe through a series of cleverly thought out strings, loops, environmental factors, etc. But one cantrip, one effect, having that kind of power; not likely.

As I said, I as a GM would say it COULD be done. Just the same way that, eventually, you could probably break open a tank with a can opener. It wouldn't be efficient but it's conceivable.

All of that aside, I think it would be awesome. Just the same way as I thought it was awesome and allowed it when my 10 year old daughter was playing a mage and had a creative use for Ray of Frost.

Party is staring though a grate in the floor of the goblin warlord's throne room at the fairy princess below; she's about to be eaten by a giant monster (shades of Jabba's Pallace here). Anyway, when I announce the NPC dwarf cleric is going to try and pry the grate open my daughter says she wants to help.

She then says to me "y'know how metal gets breakable when its frozen?" I had no idea she even knew this law of physics, so I nodded and urged her on. "I use Ray of Frost over and over, freezing one spot, so he can pop it open."

Sure, I'm biased; she's MY daughter after all. And of course all the arguments welled up in my brain: you wouldn't beat the hardness, you'd have to be precise with your attack roll, it would require too many rounds and the princess would be eaten...

I told her in the end to give me an attack roll: Natural 20.

I let her pull it off with a single use of the spell. I rationalized it that the area she attacked was not only structurally weak but terribly rusted too. Between that and a phenominal roll by the dwarf the grate tore open and she was beaming.

I'm just a pushover GM I guess.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Phasics wrote:


Pretty sure had you read just the 2nd line of that post you would have come across
"besides you don't need to tie anything simply wrapping string/rope around shoes would suffice."

which is an unattended object that is not tied but simply wrapped around.

try wrapping a piece of string around your legs several times, not tied to anything just loose , it stops you walking just fine until you spend a moment loosening it to step out

To repeat it again with a longer explanation:

While unattended isn't clearly definite in the rules, the use of the word in several section of the rules, in particular the rules about damaging object, make fairly clear that as soon as an object touches someone it is attended.
So you can't wrap a rope several times around someone leg claiming that it is unattended. As soon as you start wrapping it it become an attended object.

Phasics wrote:

Seriously if you guys only experience with people using mage hand creatively is abusive then your really playing with the wrong type of people.

I use the group as my yard stick.
If both the GM and other players, laugh, crack up, or say things to the effect of "OMG that's beautiful" , then I know its a good creative use.

More importantly it enhances the session for everyone which is the whole point.

This is the rule forum, not the advice, suggestion or gamer talk forum, so when you claim that a spell can do something that is not intended to do and can't do by RAW your "creative" solution will be shoot down.

You can do anything you want at your table, but you should not use "creativity" to justify breaking the rules when speaking in the Rules section of the forum.

Technical eh ? wrap a rope around legs leaving 1cm of air gap between the rope and the legs so they are not touching and thus maintain unattended.

But fine since this is devolving into abstracts lets get real specific.

Example 1
The Mage Hand Trip

Mage hand a 5lb wooden pole 6inches off the ground at a door frame. enemy tries to flee out the door. soon as his foot touches the pole it becomes attended ending mage hand but it matters not because physics kicks in and the pole is stuck between the legs and the door frame only things that can give is the enemy who falls forward. As a GM you could throw in a perception check and or ref save to avoid.

Example 2
The Mage Hand disarm

Dinning room, enemy is under the chandelier (a classic ;) ). Mage hand the rope end that releases the knot and lets the chandalier fall in front of the enemy potentially knocking his weapon out of his hands. again a ref save seems appropriate
Alternative
Mage hand pot of alchemical grease above enemies head and turn upside down or release the whole thing covering enemy in grease, you could ask for the disarm, GM depending on the day may give that or that you greased the whole enemy or that you greased the floor around him or both.

Example 3
The Mage Hand Fire
Mage hand hot coal from brazier or campfire, drop into open quiver or backpack of enemy unnoticed , wait till it catches fire :) , perception to notice otherwise once it burning its burning :P


The only one of those examples I'd allow to work is the alchemical grease one, and would treat it as a normal throw with mage hand merely as an alternate description of its delivery. The mechanics of the throw would not change.

Your examples require your enemies to be stationary and patient while you take the time with mage hand to do these things. It's a slow and clumsy cantrip. Stop trying to make it telekinesis.


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Wait, you want to steal his pants?


No because my pants, like everything in them, are magical.


Gotta have that enhancement bonus, huh?


The reason we don't have magic pants is that having magic pants might make sundering our pants a valid tactic.


Azten wrote:
Gotta have that enhancement bonus, huh?

Nope just my supernatural abilities. Kind of like how a salamander does fire damage with his weapons only with much less burning.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
Azten wrote:
Gotta have that enhancement bonus, huh?
Nope just my supernatural abilities. Kind of like how a salamander does fire damage with his weapons only with much less burning.

So you're saying the thing in your pants will causing a burning sensation in others if they come into contact with it? :)


Dark_Mistress wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Azten wrote:
Gotta have that enhancement bonus, huh?
Nope just my supernatural abilities. Kind of like how a salamander does fire damage with his weapons only with much less burning.
So you're saying the thing in your pants will causing a burning sensation in others if they come into contact with it? :)

As in no burning. Though they might get hot and bothered before hand.


Well, to be fair, Salamander can catch things on fire, so it would be much less burning.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Azten wrote:
Gotta have that enhancement bonus, huh?
Nope just my supernatural abilities. Kind of like how a salamander does fire damage with his weapons only with much less burning.
So you're saying the thing in your pants will causing a burning sensation in others if they come into contact with it? :)
As in no burning. Though they might get hot and bothered before hand.

Much less than a salamander weapon, not no burning. :)

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