How viable is mounted combat in PFS games?

[Andrew Christian]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Andrew, I think your GM was being kind to you and your large mount in Among the Gods. A couple of encounters are inaccessible, and if I were running the table, and you left it alone when you went into [redacted] it would be dead when you came out.

You do know that Large creatures can squeeze right?

[nosig]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Stock up on scrolls of spider climb and invest in use magic device. You should hand them to the wizard or druid to use, but be prepared to cheat in a pinch.

and see the above problems with trying to get a mount to fly, realizing that if you try to get a mount to spider climb you can expect massive judge variation (though I think it would be cool! and if you explained that you do this often, and train together for it, (and have several scrolls or other ways to cast the spell) I'd be cheering you on.

(I did this with a druid/wizard in LG days, and mostly didn't have any judge issues with it, but I was a halfling on a spider climbing dog, and I thru the spell myself. Oh! and paid for a saddle for a "flying mount").

[nosig]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Andrew, I think your GM was being kind to you and your large mount in Among the Gods. A couple of encounters are inaccessible, and if I were running the table, and you left it alone when you went into [redacted] it would be dead when you came out.

You do know that Large creatures can squeeze right?

are you suggesting to ride a squeezing mount? for a fight? and you would consider this???

"Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on
attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC."

????

What am I missing...

Squeezing rules:

Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze
into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you
take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at
least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or
through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and
while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on
attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.
When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4
squares) squeezes into a space that’s 1 square wide, the
creature’s miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered
on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature,
center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but
it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.
To squeeze through or into a space less than half your
space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You
can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through
or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you
lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

[WalterGM]

nosig wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Andrew, I think your GM was being kind to you and your large mount in Among the Gods. A couple of encounters are inaccessible, and if I were running the table, and you left it alone when you went into [redacted] it would be dead when you came out.

You do know that Large creatures can squeeze right?

are you suggesting to ride a squeezing mount? for a fight? and you would consider this???

"Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on
attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC."

????

What am I missing...

** spoiler omitted **

Perhaps Andrew is meaning that he can dismount, and still have his mount with him, rather than being forced to keep the creature outside and unprotected.

[nosig]

Walter Sheppard wrote:

nosig wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Andrew, I think your GM was being kind to you and your large mount in Among the Gods. A couple of encounters are inaccessible, and if I were running the table, and you left it alone when you went into [redacted] it would be dead when you came out.

You do know that Large creatures can squeeze right?

are you suggesting to ride a squeezing mount? for a fight? and you would consider this???

"Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on
attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC."

????

What am I missing...

** spoiler omitted **

Perhaps Andrew is meaning that he can dismount, and still have his mount with him, rather than being forced to keep the creature outside and unprotected.

Ah! yeah, maybe.

Amoung the Gods:

So in the first encounter someone could use it for cover (+4 AC) or to "draw fire". and in the later encounters it could prove useful to block passages. And if it survived all the way until the last encounter you could ride it into the final encounter (but see spoiler about Fatigued above).

[Jason S]

nosig wrote:

Do you have any examples to back up the percentage?

Well, maybe you're right, maybe it's only 10%. The last two scenarios I've GMed were both mount friendly (Tide of Morning, Pallid Plague), maybe that's affecting my perception.

[Dragnmoon]

Andrew Christian wrote:

You could choose a camel, that would be awesome.

Funny story about a Cavalier and a Camel...

I was GMing Murder on the Silken Caravan and during the last battle the Cavalier in our group got beat hard by the end boss and went below 0 (But stable) while still staying on his Camel. The Camel was still in the fight and was actually doing decent damage (Lucky rolls) and got brought down below 0 and fell, crushing the Cavalier and killing him.

It is a sad day when a Cavalier is killed by his own mount... ;)

Oddly enough this is like the third time this has happened in a game I have ran...

[Andrew Christian]

nosig wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Andrew, I think your GM was being kind to you and your large mount in Among the Gods. A couple of encounters are inaccessible, and if I were running the table, and you left it alone when you went into [redacted] it would be dead when you came out.

I played Among the Gods at a table with Chris, and I would agree with his assessment.

** spoiler omitted **

Among the Gods:

1) The path is fairly wide (definitely wide enough for a large creature) and only narrows to "two arm spans" for the 1st trap. Now two arm spans is kinda ambiguous. If my recollection is correct, one arm span is from finger tip to finger tip when you hold your arms outstretched, which is roughly 5 to 6 feet. two of them is roughly 10 to 12 feet. Even so, a mount can squeeze, and there isn't a fight until there is a 20 foot by 40 foot alcove. Sure, you can't charge, but the mount can be there.

2) The first major fight is not on a cliff side trail, but rather in an area where while charging may have been difficult to say the least, a large mount could easily move about. The fight with the ghouls and the Berbalang is in an area that can be moved about in fairly easily.

3) The mausoleum, sure, the mount probably won't fit down there to fight. So you leave it outside. Not sure that the main badguy is going to get his ghouls killed trying to kill a full grown large axe beak. But even so, the creature could squeeze down and be standing inside the mausoleum somewhere, even if it is at the top of the 5' wide staircase.

4) Final fight, Axebeak can easily take part.

[Andrew Christian]

Nosig, I don't see your point on the squeezing rules. Nothing there says that I can't take the mount on the skinny cliff trail.

[nosig]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Nosig, I don't see your point on the squeezing rules. Nothing there says that I can't take the mount on the skinny cliff trail.

Amoung the gods:

while riding a squeezing mount, you are -4 to hit and -4 on your AC. You cannot charge and all movement counts double (no 5' steps). And most judges will not let friends pass thru your area not you thru thiers, so you are tacticly restricted (even more than just half movement), blocking the passage of any friends thru your area (effectively splitting the party where you are at). This linked with Fatigued make you -5 on attacks and AC... and -1 on damage (single attack mount might loose -2 on damage due to strength lose).

Cliff Trail notes from the game that I remember playing: Our judge required acrobatics rolls when moving more than half speed on the trail. With a failure resulting in a fall of several hundred feet (this was implied, no one tried moveing more than half as the fall was "all the way down the mountain"). And a 5' wide marching order was required, with cliffs on both sides (one up, the other down). When we dropped the first monster (with missile fire) it fell "all the way down the mountain", and we were told it would take more than a day to reach the body. but then, my judge for this was... less then the best.

Overall - I do not consider Amoung the Gods to be a "mount freindly" scenario. Not even close.

but hay! that's just my opinion! I also consider it not to be a "barbarian friendly" scenario either, due to the Fatigued condition that applied during most of the adventure.

[Andrew Christian]

nosig wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

Nosig, I don't see your point on the squeezing rules. Nothing there says that I can't take the mount on the skinny cliff trail.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Your judge did not run the mountain trail correctly. There were no acrobatics checks necessary while walking along the trail, as long as you actually found the trail.

Not all mounted characters charge. Mine is a Luring Cavalier, so actually prefers to stay at range with the archers.

[Mergy]

Dragnmoon wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

You could choose a camel, that would be awesome.

Funny story about a Cavalier and a Camel...

I was GMing Murder on the Silken Caravan and during the last battle the Cavalier in our group got beat hard by the end boss and went below 0 (But stable) while still staying on his Camel. The Camel was still in the fight and was actually doing decent damage (Lucky rolls) and got brought down below 0 and fell, crushing the Cavalier and killing him.

It is a sad day when a Cavalier is killed by his own mount... ;)

Oddly enough this is like the third time this has happened in a game I have ran...

Where are the rules covering being crushed by your mount? :/

[BigNorseWolf]

If Your Mount Falls in Battle: If your mount falls, you have to succeed on a DC 15 Ride check to make a soft fall and take no damage. If the check fails, you take 1d6 points of damage.

I don't think "you're unconscious so you're failing that check" is much of a stretch :)

[Mergy]

Fair enough, if the 1d6 points of damage is what killed him.

[Dragnmoon]

It it what killed him

[Thorkull]

Playing mount-based characters in PFS is strongly contra-indicated. YMMV, swim at your own risk.

[CRobledo]

A other point (separate from scenario viability) is to PLEASE brush up and be very familiar with mounted combat rules when you bring a mounted character. Not all GMs are tippy-top about them and it can considerably slow the pace down if you have to constantly look rules up.

(This advice applies to many other things as well. Bottom line: know your character!)

[Altus Lucrim]

I play a mounted Character in society, however he is a halfling druid, and his companion is a Roc. I haven't found a scenario yet where I had a problem except getting it to go into a burning building.

[redward]

Maryanne Powderburn wrote:

Thanks for the imput, all. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I was also pleasantly suprised that no one griped at me for "meta gaming" in asking such a thing.

My final decision, based upon this thread, is to go ahead with the cavalier. It will be a human as that's the concept I was wanting, (not to mention the figures I had in mind) and I'm going to make an effort to use a build that will not be completely dependant on being on my horse.

Thanks again.

Since you've made your decision, please allow me to suggest a couple options for you to consider upon character creation:

Beast Rider: This archetype is actually kind of broken as written for Medium characters, but you can use that to your advantage. At level 4 you get access to exotic mounts, but they are all Medium-sized. You can get a wand or potions of Reduce Person and ride your Medium Tiger while reduced without worrying about all the size issues. At level 7 the mount becomes Large, but by then you can afford other options (like Reduce Animal wands or scrolls to shrink it when necessary).

Eye for Talent: This alternate racial trait allows you add 2 to one of the abilities of your mount. Adding it to Intelligence allows you to select more advanced Feats. And you can use one the mount's skill points to learn a language, so it can understand (but not speak) Common.

[Andrew Christian]

CRobledo wrote:

A other point (separate from scenario viability) is to PLEASE brush up and be very familiar with mounted combat rules when you bring a mounted character. Not all GMs are tippy-top about them and it can considerably slow the pace down if you have to constantly look rules up.

(This advice applies to many other things as well. Bottom line: know your character!)

THIS!

I made the mistake of applying mostly GM credit to an alchemist/cavalier. I played him like 3 times total between 1st and 6th level, and then 3 or 4 times between 6th and 9th. He's a very complicated build with a lot of fringe rules (mounted combat, splash weapons, etc.)

Took me too long to figure out how to play him. And now that I finally have, I'm burnt out on him.

[godsDMit]

redward wrote:

Eye for Talent: This alternate racial trait allows you add 2 to one of the abilities of your mount. Adding it to Intelligence allows you to select more advanced Feats. And you can use one the mount's skill points to learn a language, so it can understand (but not speak) Common.

Just to point out, even if you raise your Animal Companions Intelligence score to 3+, you still MUST make Handle Animal checks to get it to do something. You cannot simply speak to it.

[Andrew Christian]

Seth Gipson wrote:

redward wrote:

Eye for Talent: This alternate racial trait allows you add 2 to one of the abilities of your mount. Adding it to Intelligence allows you to select more advanced Feats. And you can use one the mount's skill points to learn a language, so it can understand (but not speak) Common.

Just to point out, even if you raise your Animal Companions Intelligence score to 3+, you still MUST make Handle Animal checks to get it to do something. You cannot simply speak to it.

Definitely. Just because it understands your language and what you are saying, doesn't mean it understands your instructions.

I got my black belt in Karate a few years ago, and I pick up Kata fairly quickly. It always amazed me though, how some folks would consistently forget how to do a Kata or get steps wrong. And these are intelligent people with capacity to think like people.

So just because your animal companion understands what you are saying, doesn't mean it will automatically know how to apply it in the heat of combat.

[redward]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Seth Gipson wrote:

Just to point out, even if you raise your Animal Companions Intelligence score to 3+, you still MUST make Handle Animal checks to get it to do something. You cannot simply speak to it.

So just because your animal companion understands what you are saying, doesn't mean it will automatically know how to apply it in the heat of combat.

True, and I didn't mean to imply you could carry out deep, philosophical conversations with your pet Ape. But the extra Int does get you extra Tricks which you could apply to those Feats. So if you want to pick up Precise Strike for you and your companion, you can teach them "Flank." Of course, some GMs may disagree on that.

I also think that if you're investing the Trait and the Skill point, it's fair to assume that you can use the language to help with those Tricks ("Flank with our friend the Rogue"). Of course, some GMs may disagree on that.

For me, the Core rules and the FAQ on Intelligent Animals leaves enough up to GM discretion that I'm no longer really comfortable using Companions or Mounts as a player in Organized Play. But the OP seems intent on going forward with it so I'm offering some suggestions to try to maximize the utility of her mount.

[Hakken]

nosig wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Andrew, I think your GM was being kind to you and your large mount in Among the Gods. A couple of encounters are inaccessible, and if I were running the table, and you left it alone when you went into [redacted] it would be dead when you came out.

I played Among the Gods at a table with Chris, and I would agree with his assessment.

** spoiler omitted **

fatique no longer requires half speed movement.

just no run or charge and minus two on str and dex.

[nosig]

Hakken wrote:

nosig wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Andrew, I think your GM was being kind to you and your large mount in Among the Gods. A couple of encounters are inaccessible, and if I were running the table, and you left it alone when you went into [redacted] it would be dead when you came out.

I played Among the Gods at a table with Chris, and I would agree with his assessment.

** spoiler omitted **

fatique no longer requires half speed movement.

just no run or charge and minus two on str and dex.

the slow speed ("half speed") was from the Squeezed condition, not the fatiqued. from the squeezed rules - "Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares".

[Dragnmoon]

Don't have the rules for squeezing on front of me, are they slowed or is the movement restricted (squares count as more then 1 square)

There is a big difference.

[nosig]

agreed Dragnmoon - I mis spoke (typed). Movement is restricted.

Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze
into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you
take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at
least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or
through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and
while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on
attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.
When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4
squares) squeezes into a space that’s 1 square wide, the
creature’s miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered
on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature,
center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but
it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.
To squeeze through or into a space less than half your
space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You
can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through
or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you
lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

[BYC]

My level 12 rogue/cavalier Muammar Gaddafi has never charged on his mount before. He's really sad. I don't even take my mount into adventures anymore, I just leave it around the starting area or "home" when I can.

Hilariously enough, my level 8 ifrit sorcerer has ALWAYS run into fire resistant, fire immune, or high SR opponents in every scenario and module that I have played him in. Very infurating.

[nosig]

I feel for you Bruce.

[Ill_Made_Knight]

If your a paladin you can dodge these issues by getting the trait "dangerously curious" and maxing out UMD. With UMD you can use shrink person and shrink animal.