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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ok, so I did a short search and there was no thread about this game so here is one.

Feel free to talk about Warhammer 40K in any manner you choose. Examples include: 1. Opinions on the new edition. 2. Why you like (insert army here). 3. Why you hate (insert army/rule/etc. here). 4. Models. 5. Etc.

I'll be back later to discuss armies I'm currently playing and my thoughts on 6th ed so far as I'm reading the book.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think there was a discussion but it was quite some time ago.

I wasn't even aware there was a new edition. I gave up on 40K going into 5th Edition, which didn't do much kindness for my Sisters of Battle army, plus a lot of my friends stopped playing as well. I'd be cautiously curious to see how 6th edition changes things, but even if I wanted to start playing again I'd still have the dilemma of finding people to play with. I don't like to go to the GW store by myself and play with strangers.

I do still have my Sisters army and I'd love at some point to actually paint some bits and pieces I never finished (it's largely fully painted but I'm always playing with different builds and I have an Immolator and a Penitent Engine kit lying around I've never assembled).

There's some pics of my Sisters here from a megabattle I played in with some friends in the old Glen Burnie Battle Bunker before it went away, this was back during 4th Ed. The paint scheme is Order of Our Martyred Lady meets Revolutionary Girl Utena (which is why there's a pink rhino and a magenta immolator).

I will say I have always loved Citadel's miniatures, they are beautiful sculpts. I don't love the constant price gouging, but I love the sculpts, and the design and backstory for all the armies is fascinating. I'll always keep my Sisters even if I never play them again just because I really loved painting them and hopefully I'll be able to get them in a proper display case some day.

For liked armies: in addition to the Sisters I'm a fan of the Eldar and Dark Eldar, the Necrons, and the Tau. In fact I really like everyone except the Space Marines and Chaos, go figure.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

6th edition came out on June 30th. I haven't gotten a chance to look over a book out yet, but have heard some rummors.

I started out on 5th edition. I have a Space Wolves army (~3K points) and Sisters (6K+). My Sisters I've only played with the white dwarf codex. I understand it plays a lot differently than the old one, but its been fairly competative for me. I picked up an IG rulebook for the new allies rules, and figure I will play a few proxy games before deciding what to buy for them.

I really like some of the changes I've seen for 6th. Doubling the force org slot is huge for my sisters, who rarely have a unit worth 200. I can't wait to field all 6 heavy and fast attack slots in 1 2500 game. The allies rules will allow armies to fill out their weaknesses with someone else, but I see a lot of small IG contingents added on to other armies.

The new wound allication I'm concerned about. It could be good, could be bad. Will need to see how it plays out with my Wolfguard. I'm glad differentiation shenanigans in lists are a thing of the past though. No longer will I be adding meltabombs to a guy just so he gets shot differently.

I don't like that doubling up wounds now works on modified toughness. Though that is mostly because I rely on melta to double out nergal stuff and orc bikers.


Love Necrons.
Love Grey Knights.
Like to play Warhammer 40k.

Hate the amount of time and money that game requires...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So far I'm not too far into the new rule book. But I'm not seeing anything that isn't too out of the ordinary. I've heard some people griping about the new Overwatch mechanic but I'll have to see how that works.

My armies are Tau, Blood Angels and Orks. I'm probably going to start a Chaos Space Marine/Chaos Demons army soon.

One of these days I'll get around to posting pictures.

Grand Lodge

Could never afford it and so deliberately avoided it.


Those who gripe about Overwatch hasn't being playing that long. That is an old rule being brought back. I think that dates back to either 2nd or 3rd ed. Nothing I have read so far has been an OMG why they do that. I don't agree with everything, but it looks playable. What I am worrying about and waiting with baited breath, is the new Chaos Space Marines Codex. I have Black Legion, Thousand Sons, and World Eaters armies. My favorite being the Thousand Sons. I hated the 4th ed codex. They stripped us of every thing that made us chaos. We did not get a single new unit in 4th, and in fact lost units. You could not make a truly dedicated Legion army with those rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Try being a Sisters player, Lorm. At least you got a real Codex.

ETA: Oh, wait, that's 5th Ed I'm thinking of. Although our last Codex was technically 3rd Ed that was made to be compatible with 4th since it was on the eve of its release.


Imperial guard for life (or until I run out of money)!

Wow. That didn't take long...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DeathQuaker wrote:

Try being a Sisters player, Lorm. At least you got a real Codex.

ETA: Oh, wait, that's 5th Ed I'm thinking of. Although our last Codex was technically 3rd Ed that was made to be compatible with 4th since it was on the eve of its release.

As I said, I never played the old codex, but the new sisters codex is doing well for me. They have a few gaps (elite choices SUCK compared to other options, HQ restrictions on escorts limits options), and they suffer from lack of expensive units in kill point missions, but overall I can compete fairly well. I have found I particularly stack up well against IG players, and do decently well against orcs.

My list tends to look like:
2000 points of Sisters, 5th edition:

HQ
St Celestine
Uriah Jacobus

Escort
4Deathcult Assassins, 1 Crusader
Immolator w/ TL multi-melta
<Uriah in Immolator with them for FNP>

Troops
2x 10 woman troop squads w/ 2 melta (or 1 melta 1 multi-melta), combi-flamer
1x 10 woman troop squad w/ 1 flamer 1 Heavy Flamer, combi-melta
3x Rhinos

Fast Attack
2x 5 woman Dominion squad w/ 2 melta, combi-flamer
1x 5 woman Dominion squad w/ 2 flamer, combi-melta
3x Immolator w/ TL heavy flamer

Heavy
2x 5 woman Retributors Heavy Bolter
2x Immolator w/ TL Heavy Bolter w/Inferno Rounds
1x Exorcist


tactics:

As you can see, my fast attacks and heavies are full, so I really like the change to give me more of each in larger games. And at 22 kill points, I often have more than a MSU guard player.
I somtimes throw some Penitent Engines in. They can be very hit or miss. If the oponent can rage lead them, there can be problems, but with 2 heavy flamers and lots of high strength attacks they can be highly effective. The changes to rage and charges might make a squadron a standard part of my list.

They have numbers most other 3+ save enemies don't have, but the 3str, 3 toughness, 1 attack makes them a lost cause in assault. I keep the deathcult close to my firing line to counter the enemy's charge (or deal with Snickrot.)
Sisters do well when they can get their fast attacks to close and fire, sacrificing themselves to protect the troops, while laying down long range suppressive fire. I prefer 5 woman dominion squads w/ immolator to 10 woman in Rhino. I find the enhanced vehicle and lower points worth it over having 4 special weapons, though its not uncommon for me to field 2 5-woman squads and 1 10 woman instead.

St. Celestine charges forward to hit as many vulnerable targets as possible. As a 3 wound Terminator w/ rossarius on a jump-pack with heavy flamer & power weapon, 5 attacks at WS7 and I7, wounding on 4+, and with a chance to revive every turn, she can get where she is needed and do a number on the enemy. I never have her deep strike in because I want opponents shooting at her and she is more likely to get into position. Her only real issue comes when she gets tarpitted by a dreadnaught or too many boyz. Only averaging 2 wounds a round in assault, it can take her a long time to deal with swarms. Generally I hope they killer her so she can get back up the next turn and flamer them again.


codex issues:

1. Lack of expensive units means a lot of kill points. The expensive units that they have are often less powerful.
examples: 20 woman troop squads get the same number of special weapons, cannot get in a vehicle, and are more suseptible to assault.
Penitent Engines are so hit or miss that the 3rd one often does not help as much as the 85 points would be elsewhere.
Seraphim are a suicide squad (4 melta shots makes them a high threat to vehicles, but they can't deal with mobs easily (flamer option is and will die in most assaults) and more than 5 will not help you. Even then, as a suicide squad I find them on the expensive side as a 1 shot. If they don't come on turn 2, I generally find them wasted.

2. Restricting HQ options.
There are 4 real HQ options (priests don't count, unless named character restrictsion are preventing you from spending the points to upgrade from an overcosted unit to an undercosted one). 3 are named characters.
A. St. Celestine - awesome solo character, but doesn't unlock options
B. Jacobus - 1+ attack & FNP to deathcult is awesome
C. Krikinov - 6 inches of fearless, great for your Retributors
D Cannoness - 65 or more of usually wasted points (see below)

Jacobus or Krikinov are needed to unlock Deathcult Assassins, your best assault squad.
Cannoness are needed to unlock Sororitas Command squads, with their 3 relentless multi-meltas and FNP (AWESOME). Unfortunately, Cannonness are an assault HQ, giving prefered enemy to the squad they join. This doesn't stack the the priest re-roll on assault that your other assaulty HQs have though, so its not always worth it to attach her to a DCA squad unless you are using Krikinov, and even then you need to kit her out. She can't join the 2 other potential assault squads you have or those squads become less powerful. She doesn't have a jumppack anymore (not sure why they took it out) or Hit and Run, so Seraphim take a hit by having her. Sisters Repentia lose fleet.

So the Cannoness really feels like a tax for getting the Sororitas, who are already one of your more expensive units. Giving her a jumppack option or boosting the Celestines would fix all my issues with her.Meanwhile, you lose out on cool options if you take St. Celestine (4 HQ slots in larger games will fix this).

3. Elite Choices
Celestines - These sisters are worse than a standard space marine in CC unless you spend a faith point on them, and then they become the same stats. They cost the about same ammount as a standard space marine. They are worse at shooting because of the different faith point than your base troop, but cost 3 more each, aren't scoring units, but they do get to field 2 special weapons in a 5 man team. They cost the same as dominion, who can also field 2 special weapons in a 5 man team, gain outflank and scout, and whose faith point is to make their weapons twin linked. The only reason I ever take them is if I have run out of troops, fast attack, and heavies (in 2500 I have), and even then they were less effective than my troops in every way.

Sisters Repentia - die before they close, and the FNP change makes this worse. High points cost for I1 suicide squad that may not even make it past their firing line. Let them get in a vehicle and they would be mostly fixed. The changes to Rage and CCW AP may partially fix them.

4. Immolators are more expensive than Razorbacks when evenly kitted out, but don't have the Laz-plaz option that is so popular. The solution here is simple. Give them back either their firing point or make them fast again. They were overpowered at their point cost before, but now they are overcosted.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm glad the Mini-Dex in White Dwarf magazine works for you. I never got copies of the magazine, as it came out well after I stopped playing, so I don't know much about it though I've looked at some summaries of the changes. I still would like to have a real standalone printed Codex, not a couple magazine articles (but again, if it works for you, great). If one comes out for 6th edition that may well be a big incentive for me to return to playing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I remember when Blood Angel players had that issue. So the armies I'm most looking forward to playing are the Tau and my Death Company army. The Tau mainly because they are viable again only for the changes to the Assault rules. The Death Company are just going to be interesting because I'm just going to drop out of the sky and charge in doing somewhere like 25+ attacks with power weapons. With them having feel no pain its like having crappy terminators.


DeathQuaker wrote:

Try being a Sisters player, Lorm. At least you got a real Codex.

ETA: Oh, wait, that's 5th Ed I'm thinking of. Although our last Codex was technically 3rd Ed that was made to be compatible with 4th since it was on the eve of its release.

The CSM Codex wasn't a codex, it was a travesty pretending to be a codex.

I for got to mention I also have a Daemon army.


I have about a 3k point necron army, complete with C'tan Deceiver.
Which from what I hear, accounts for exactly dick in 5th ed.
For grey knights I only have 1 squad of heavy terminators and a named captain. I used to use them to help a buddy out.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lorm Dragonheart wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:

Try being a Sisters player, Lorm. At least you got a real Codex.

ETA: Oh, wait, that's 5th Ed I'm thinking of. Although our last Codex was technically 3rd Ed that was made to be compatible with 4th since it was on the eve of its release.

The CSM Codex wasn't a codex, it was a travesty pretending to be a codex.

I for got to mention I also have a Daemon army.

I'm not going to get into a who has a worse situation fight here.

What I was getting at is Chaos gets active support and print codices on a regular basis. GW includes them majorly in marketing and fluff. I lament that my favorite army does not usually get these things; the last print codex or support we got that wasn't a magazine article was around six years ago, if that, and we've got a handful of novels and graphic novels most people don't know exists. (I also accept that I happened to fall in love with a fringe army.)

I am genuinely sorry that the support your army has received has been disappointing to you, and doesn't support the choices you like best. That really and truly sucks, and I hope you see some good options return to you in 6th ed if you are still playing.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Oh, the C'tan Deceiver. He's cool, I painted him once, it was fun.


Don't worry about it DeathQuaker. I wasn't trying to get into an arguement with you about who has the worse codex. I was just trying to point out that you weren't the only not happy with what GW has done with their army. I agree with you that they gave Sisters of Battle the short stick on how they handled it. I hope that they do give you a real codex, maybe with this edition.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Oh, the C'tan Deceiver. He's cool, I painted him once, it was fun.

Yeah, the only thing I didn't have was a monolith. I have the old 4th ed codex, and use them as enemies in all kinds of RPGs. I even have plans for them in PF!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Having read some of the rules, I'm not really seeing too much of a difference. The overwatch mechanic with the random charge range can make it pretty difficulty to assault but I think it will really just force assault armies to be a bit more balanced. Vehicles are now a double edged sword. In some ways they are way better but in others they are not. With the addition of Hull points some vehicles have become tougher to destroy but on the other hand if you focus your fire with a bunch of heavy weapons you'll likely destroy most transports in one round of firing.

I haven't had a chance to play any games yet but I'm don't completely hate the rules so far.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Flyers are the new broken thing in 40K. If you "Zoom" you get to fire 4 weapons at your full BS and enemies can only hit you on a 6. On top of that, template weapons can't hit you and you can leave the battlefield and enter it again on a later turn.


Fly bys, huh? That's kinda cool.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wound allocation is a HUGE difference for a number of armies. Anyone who can mix 2+ saves in with 3+ or multi-wound models gets a boost.

The loss of assault out of a vehicle that hadn't moved is a significant tactical change for some.

Only being able to keep 50% in reserves is a big difference for Blood Angles.

Allies are still a mystery to me. I don't know how they will affect the meta, but I like the idea.

Changes to Outflank affect me; being unable to take a transport with my Dominion is a hit.

Not being able to assault after coming on the board edge is a penalty for some. My space wolves scounts are probably not going to take power weapons anymore.

Overall, I have heard good things except from Blood Angels and Grey Knights players. Not a loss, IMO.


I am used to the random charge move, because I play fantasy. I played my first 6th ed game Saturday. I like overwatch, but I didn't think it was that devastating. On average, you are only going to hit a few times. Though, I think that a flamer or other template weapon, can be devastating. When it comes to flyers, there is a special rule called skyfire which allows normal BS against flyers, but only allows snapshots against other targets. I am still getting used to the rules, but they look to be playable. The game was my Daemons vs. the Space Wolves. It was a hard fought vicious game. I won by victory points. Most of my games against this friend are that tough. I only had left half a unit of horrors, a soulgrinder with only one Hull Point left, and The Lord of Change with only 1 W left. He had what ever the Space Wolf version of a terminator lord left.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You can use flamer weapons on overwatch? I thought you can't use template, blast or large blast weapons with Snap Shots. And the only problem with the Skyfire rule is that there aren't a lot of weapons with the rule right now.


Your right, like I said, still learning the rules.


Flamers can be used in Over Watch. Page 52 under Wall of Death.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Caineach wrote:
Changes to Outflank affect me; being unable to take a transport with my Dominion is a hit.

I don't know much about the new rules yet... what is this? If you mean Dominion Sisters, last I played (which mind has been awhile) the whole point of them is to be in a transport (well, the other point used to be that they could have 4 special weapons per unit, but I know that changed in the WD minidex). If they can't be in a transport, does that mean they're no longer fast attack?

Balfic-graa wrote:
Flamers can be used in Over Watch. Page 52 under Wall of Death.

OTOH, that sounds good for Sisters...

General thoughts, the changes to assault sound good, though I can see how the changes are going to affect a lot of armies' tactics a lot.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ah, yes. Now I see it.


JMD031 wrote:
Ah, yes. Now I see it.

This looks exactly like what your avatar should be saying.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I finally played a game. Like most of the changes. My Chaos Marine opponent loved being able to take demons as allies.

I had issues with the fliers. Flying monsterous creatures are disgusting.

I like the rules for placing terrain. Not sure how much it will affect games overall, but it made for a decently fast setup and an intersting board layout.

DeathQuaker wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Changes to Outflank affect me; being unable to take a transport with my Dominion is a hit.

I don't know much about the new rules yet... what is this? If you mean Dominion Sisters, last I played (which mind has been awhile) the whole point of them is to be in a transport (well, the other point used to be that they could have 4 special weapons per unit, but I know that changed in the WD minidex). If they can't be in a transport, does that mean they're no longer fast attack?

Apparently I should base less of my comments off of rummors. I couldn't find the rule that dedicated transports couldn't outflank anywhere when I actually looked at the book.

And so my 5 man dominion squads came in the side of the map in their immolators and burned/melta'd stuff. The Obliterators were not amused.

DQ wrote:


Balfic-graa wrote:
Flamers can be used in Over Watch. Page 52 under Wall of Death.

OTOH, that sounds good for Sisters...

General thoughts, the changes to assault sound good, though I can see how the changes are going to affect a lot of armies' tactics a lot.

Wall of Death was used... and it was good. Flamers became a good defensive weapon (d3 hits). It wont prevent someone from assaulting you, but its enough that it may let you not die horribly.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Rumors claim that the next armies that will be released will be Chaos Space Marines and Dark Angels followed by any of the following in no particular order:

Tau
Eldar
Sisters of Battle
Space Marines


What I have heard is that CSM will show up in October. I am waiting anxiously.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A lot of that rummor comes from a reported leak that contains some new units. I haven't looked through it all, but was happy with plastic sisters, a cannoness with non-purchasable weapon option, and 2 new named HQs.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So what are people's thoughts on "Cron Air" or the Necron Flyer armies?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
JMD031 wrote:
So what are people's thoughts on "Cron Air" or the Necron Flyer armies?

They are expensive enough to get into that I haven't seen someone play one yet.


Have any of you seen the Dark vengeance box set? I now own two sets of the chaos minis, and they are beautiful minis. The Hellbrute is a great looking mini. They are easy to put together and the instructions easy to follow. On the chaos side you get a Chaos Lord, 6 chosen chaos marines, 2 squads of 10 cultists with champions and a Hellbrute.

With the Dark Angels you get a Company Master, a Librarian, 10 Tactical Squad including a Veteran Sgt., 5 Deathwing Terminator Squad including a Terminator Sgt., and 3 Ravenwing Bike Squadron including a Ravenwing Sgt.. If you got the special box you also get a Inquisitor.

Of course, the box includes some dice, including a scatter die. Measure rods(useless), A set of templates, a rules summery card, and a mini rulebook.

All Heavy and Special weapons are listed for all units on both sides. The basic rules for both sides are listed.(Especially since we are waiting for our Chaos Marines Codex coming soon.) I am hoping to play this weekend. It should be interesting.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lorm Dragonheart wrote:

Have any of you seen the Dark vengeance box set? I now own two sets of the chaos minis, and they are beautiful minis. The Hellbrute is a great looking mini. They are easy to put together and the instructions easy to follow. On the chaos side you get a Chaos Lord, 6 chosen chaos marines, 2 squads of 10 cultists with champions and a Hellbrute.

With the Dark Angels you get a Company Master, a Librarian, 10 Tactical Squad including a Veteran Sgt., 5 Deathwing Terminator Squad including a Terminator Sgt., and 3 Ravenwing Bike Squadron including a Ravenwing Sgt.. If you got the special box you also get a Inquisitor.

Of course, the box includes some dice, including a scatter die. Measure rods(useless), A set of templates, a rules summery card, and a mini rulebook.

All Heavy and Special weapons are listed for all units on both sides. The basic rules for both sides are listed.(Especially since we are waiting for our Chaos Marines Codex coming soon.) I am hoping to play this weekend. It should be interesting.

I won a local team tournament with a Chaos player who is working on a chaos IG list with customized gas masks, so these guys fit in. We split the box set with the prize money. I mostly wanted the mini-rulebook, which is practically worth the price.

I'm hoping to mod the dark angels into annother faction.


It is nice not lug a 400 page book around.


Huh, I figured that was a new dreadnaught mini. What is a hell brute?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jam412 wrote:
Huh, I figured that was a new dreadnaught mini. What is a hell brute?

The new boxed set has Chaos minis that are not in their codex. They gave stat lines, but no abilities for them, in it to work with their quickplay rules.


The Hellbrute is a chaos dreadnaught variant. It has a multi-melter and a power fist. We don't know what upgrades it will have, when the codex comes out. Like Caineach said, we only have what rules that are in the box set.


And it's a gorgeous freakin' model. In fact, the whole box is sweet. I bought it to paint them up and sell 'em at my conventions. But now... I dunno. I really dig the whole set.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lorm Dragonheart wrote:

Have any of you seen the Dark vengeance box set? I now own two sets of the chaos minis, and they are beautiful minis. The Hellbrute is a great looking mini. They are easy to put together and the instructions easy to follow. On the chaos side you get a Chaos Lord, 6 chosen chaos marines, 2 squads of 10 cultists with champions and a Hellbrute.

With the Dark Angels you get a Company Master, a Librarian, 10 Tactical Squad including a Veteran Sgt., 5 Deathwing Terminator Squad including a Terminator Sgt., and 3 Ravenwing Bike Squadron including a Ravenwing Sgt.. If you got the special box you also get a Inquisitor.

Of course, the box includes some dice, including a scatter die. Measure rods(useless), A set of templates, a rules summery card, and a mini rulebook.

All Heavy and Special weapons are listed for all units on both sides. The basic rules for both sides are listed.(Especially since we are waiting for our Chaos Marines Codex coming soon.) I am hoping to play this weekend. It should be interesting.

The special edition gives you an Interrogator Chaplain not an Inquisitor. Also, the measuring rods are good for hitting your opponent when he makes stupid mistakes.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Measuring rods can also be cut and made into 6 inch and 2 inch measuring tools. Make them into an I with the 2 inch on 1 end and the 6 on the other. It makes spreading your guys out to avoid templates much easier.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My table I use for playing 40k broke while I was in the middle of playing a game with my brother. It was like watching a slow car wreck :(. Fortunately there was nothing that couldn't be fixed with some superglue.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just got the Chaos SM codex. Haven't had a chance to read it yet.


I feel like playing my Thousand Sons again. For the first time since third ed., we now have new units and independent characters.


Do the greater daemons get their own stats again?


No, they completely removed daemons from the book, except for things like Mutilators, obliterators, and various daemon engines: the heldrake, the maulerfiend, the forgefiend, and of course the defiler. I think they figure you can always have daemons as allies, so they got rid of the generic daemons.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes, that is the case. Why take crappy generic daemons when you can have a full codex of daemons to use?

I've glanced over the CSM codex and there doesn't seem to be that many differences between the old codex and the new codex besides the fact that several of the old units changed in price, the addition of several new units and the addition of some special rules that makes them on par with regular Space Marines as far as having something like ATSKNF.

Chaos Lords and Sorcerers got the biggest changes because they now can make your favorite cult marines troops by taking a mark of chaos. So those of you who have Berzerker or Thousand Sons or Plague Marine armies, fear not, you can still do those, you just have more options if you want. They also cost less too and have more options.

The chart for Chaos Boons is interesting but it would totally suck to lose your 250+ point special character to spawnhood. The warlord traits are a nice addition and the decrease in points for the marks is really nice. Speaking of marks of Chaos you can take them on more units now so you don't have to just have the cult units to get a benefit. For example, you could put the Mark of Khorne on a unit of Raptors and essentially have berzerkers with jump packs. The only thing that really got worse in the codex was a couple of the special characters. Lucius would be great in the assault phase...if he wouldn't always be going against things that would negate his 3+ save all the time and he doesn't have an invulerable save so, he's pretty much worthless. You could potentially make a Chaos Lord that gives you the same benefit (allows Noise Marines to be troops) with an invulnerable save and probably cheaper than Lucius costs. At least Abbadon is still pretty BA.

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