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Yeah, that is what I would like to see as well, gruesome Ashiel encounters in the form of mini-adventures, with more of the lifelike NPC's I've seen so far.
More comprehensive campaign setting material from your home game would certainly be interesting but I would be afraid it would creep into the setting I'm designing, which I want to remain my own. I'm already influenced enough by your GM advice as it is, I don't want my world turning into Ashiel world!
That's not to say I wouldn't buy a setting by you, just not til I was done with mine.
Others have said said they would like to see prestige classes, I wouldn't use those at all, but you know, play to the crowd (plus I'm sure it's something you enjoy)
One other thing that would be cool is player resources. Dungeon Survival Guide, Wilderness Survival Guide etc, teach them Ashiel tactics.
Have you seen Ashiel's Guide to Adventure Preparation?
Have you seen Ashiel's Guide to Adventure Preparation?
Hell Yes.
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Ashiel if you do an encounter with a fallen ghaele like tels suggested, make sure you stat up the air displaced by the ghaele when it teleports, and any modifiers to stealth in case it farts.
Ashiel if you do an encounter with a fallen ghaele like tels suggested, make sure you stat up the air displaced by the ghaele when it teleports, and any modifiers to stealth in case it farts.
I was eating ice cream and choked you jerk :P
Ashiel if you do an encounter with a fallen ghaele like tels suggested, make sure you stat up the air displaced by the ghaele when it teleports, and any modifiers to stealth in case it farts.
*falls over laughing* I love you guys so much!
Also, here is the most recently released pdf version of the adventuring guidebook. I've been meaning to get an updated version up, and Tels has been prodding me along the way to hurry it up. :P
Ashiel if you do an encounter with a fallen ghaele like tels suggested, make sure you stat up the air displaced by the ghaele when it teleports, and any modifiers to stealth in case it farts.*falls over laughing* I love you guys so much!
Also, here is the most recently released pdf version of the adventuring guidebook. I've been meaning to get an updated version up, and Tels has been prodding me along the way to hurry it up. :P
Fantastic work, again. I really like the hyperlinks, they make looking things up for people not in the know a lot easier.
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On the subject of "fallen" ghaeles, that would make for a fun adventure. I've used fallen angels as plot devices before. One of my more interesting games occurred when the party accidentally freed powerful angel from an ancient temple. The angel thanked all of them for doing their part for the sake of justice, gave them a boon, and then left. Shortly after, the old priest and caretaker of the temple ran in, realizing what the PCs had done. It didn't stop him from reflexively shouting "What have you done!?" and stammering about looking at the remains of the statue that sealed the angel away.
Well as it turned out, the angel was technically a good guy. Or at least, the angel believed that. The problem is that the angel got a bit over zealous, and being Neutral Good rather than Lawful Good tended to occasionally ignore protocol and do things her own way, rather than doing exactly as a deity commanded. As her campaign against evil continued, she became less and less forgiving. Eventually she became something of a monster in her own right, and caused more problems than she solved; judging wickedness in a way that is eerily similar to Matt Damon's role in Dogma, only without the humor. :P
Her deity knew she was truly trying to do good, but had been blinded by her own quest for righteousness. Instead of destroying her, she was sealed away until a time where she would rise again and see her mistakes. Well as it turned out, the PCs released her (now whether that was an accident or the deity pulling strings, we may never know). However, she became the main antagonist for the campaign for quite a while; with the party following her around and trying to stop her from purging the perceived wickedness from the lands (and making a mess of things as she did so).
That being said, the most likely way that I know of, that PCs can end up on the wrong end of a celestial's sword is due to stuff like planar binding and summon monster spells. There's nothing stopping a wholly evil wizard from pulling the strings of a celestial being, just like Jafar pulls the strings of the Genie in Aladdin. I mean, does this outsider look happy to be under the magical compulsion to serve this guy? I think not. But then again, it's not that difficult to force a creature into your service. It's a magical compelling. An opposed Charisma check to exert your will over them, and believe me, a bad guy is going to have no moral qualms about stacking the deck in his favor.
It would likely go down like this.
Villain: "Ab'dul mizzerick santci silovoru mektok..."
Ghaele: *appears inside of a circle of protection from good* "W-what? How did I get here!?"
Villain: "Silence. You are mine now, and you shall do as I say. I desire the destruction of the city of Deepkelp..."
Ghaele: "WHAT!?" *attempts to punch the villainous fool senseless, but her hand crashes against the magical barrier* "Argh, sorcerer you tempt powers you do not yet know!"
Villain: "Pfft, if I didn't know the extent of your power, do you think I would have called you here? Now, you will submit to my will, or you shall suffer...indignities."
Ghaele: "Like hell I will!" *tries to smash the barrier with her sword to no avail.* "You can't hold me here!" she shouts.
Villain: "Oh but I can my dear. And I will. And you will submit." he says. "Oh, and fetch this feather for me." the villain says pulling a feather from the last angel he enslaved. His voice ripples through the air and his eyes glow ominously. "Retrieve the feather." he demands, placing it on the other side of the room.
Ghaele: "W-what have you done?" the ghaele asks, feeling some sort of dark magic come over her as the geas takes effect.
Villain: "Oh nothing so terrible. Just a little incentive for you to see things my way."
Ghaele: "I swear I'll have your head!" *attempts to tear her away out of the prison with no means to do so*
Villain: "You'll need to get in line. Perhaps you will be more respectful in a few days." the villain says before walking out of the summoning chamber and locking it behind him.
A few days pass. The effects of the geas wearing the ghaele down. Now, with a -12 to all her ability scores, she sits in the magical prison a shell of her former self. The door opens, and the villain enters yet again.
Ghaele: "You...you're wasting your time. I'm not going to negotiate with you. Release me, and mercy shall be shown..."
Villain: "Oh how your tune has changed, my dear. But I'm not here to negotiate. I'm here to make sure you understand exactly who you are dealing with." he says as he casts false life followed by spectral hand. Suddenly the hand appears inside the barrier and grasps the Ghaele's throat. "Ab abib mektok shelo..." the wizard speaks bitterly. The bestow curse spell taking hold of the already severely weakened celestial. The ghaele's eyes seem to dim, and her coloration seems to dull. Her mind is clouded. Her body is weakened (-4 to all attacks, saves, skills, and ability checks). She can scarcely remember what it felt like to be powerful.
Villain: "Now again! Haha..." he says, cursing her, and cursing her, until she can barely move (another -6 to her Charisma and anything else he feels like cursing).
Villain: "So...let us begin the negotiations..." he says with a voice that would make a snake's blood curdle.
Ghaele: The ghaele gasps in pain and misery within the circle, barely able to reason what is happening, let alone resist it (all her ability scores at this point that matter are at -18, giving her the following ability scores after everything: Str 7, Dex 1, Con 2, Int 1, Wis 1, Cha 1). She struggles defiantly. "I...I'll not submit!" she screams.
Villain: "Oh you will though..." he says, casting eagle's splendor upon himself to heighten his own spiritual energy. "Now here is my offer. You shall serve me, without question, and do all you can possibly do to see my desires made manifest, and in return I won't kill you". (Rolls opposed Charisma check at 1d20+5 and gets a 15).
Ghaele: "Nnnggghhhuuuh..." (Rolls opposed Charisma check at 1d20-5 and gets a 6). "I....agree..." she mutters against her will. Suddenly the contract is made. The villain smirks, feeling his grasp over the ghaele lock in place. He waves his hand, dispelling the field and begins dismissing the spells he cast on her over the course of the week. Almost as readily as they afflicted her, her tribulations are lifted.
Villain: "I'm sure the good folk of Deepkelp will be so thrilled to meet with you." the villain says with a smirk that would make a devil angry. He walks to the door of the summoning chamber, bids it upon, and then leaves the ghaele behind him. The ghaele begins crying, curled up in a small ball, repeating "What have I done?" over and over and over again...
===============================================
Now I ask you? Do YOU not want to embark on an epic quest to save Deepkelp, bring justice to that rat bastard of a Villain, and bring freedom to that poor Ghaele!? Don't you want to save her! Beware though, she'll try to kill you (but not because she wants to)!
I did not know continual flame was that high level of a spell. For some reason I always thought it was level 1 or 2 spell. Now I can handle deeper darkness. I just have to remember to have a cleric cast the spell.
I did not know continual flame was that high level of a spell. For some reason I always thought it was level 1 or 2 spell. Now I can handle deeper darkness. I just have to remember to have a cleric cast the spell.
It's actually a 2nd level spell. However, a heightened continual flame can ruin the day of anything with darkness or deeper darkness SLAs. They will never be considered higher than 3rd level unless something weird is going on, which means that 4th level continual flame pretty much ruins dirty tricks that would result in a TPK (such as a darkfolk spamming deeper darkness while a group of darklings tear the PCs apart).
And always remember while casting to use stealth as part of your somatic movements...
Can't do it sir. You don't use Stealth as part of the casting, you use it as part of the movement. It's not rocket science. I broke it down for you in the previous thread. It works quite simply.
1. Begin casting (standard action).
2. Casting resolves (end standard action).
3. Greater teleport takes effect (you counted it as movement).
3a. Make Stealth check as a non-action as part of movement.
4. Arrive in destination.
5. Take move action or pass turn.
Continual FlameSchool evocation [light]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 2
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Teleportation is not movement by the way. Movement in game terms refers to methods of motion with an assigned speed such as walking, flying, swimming and so on.If teleportation were movement you could provoke for casting a spell, and the actual teleporting itself.
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Continual FlameSchool evocation [light]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 2
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Teleportation is not movement by the way. Movement in game terms refers to methods of motion with an assigned speed such as walking, flying, swimming and so on.If teleportation were movement you could provoke for casting a spell, and the actual teleporting itself.
Is it an action. Because if it is, I would think that taking an action would make you "active".
I am not following, but I do admit I did not read all the post in the other thread either.
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I am not following, but I do admit I did not read all the post in the other thread either.
The invisibility rule says that players get a DC 20 perception check to detect active invisible creatures within 30 feet.
The argument as I understand it had two parts.
First, that teleportation was not movement, so whatever was teleporting in was not considered active when it teleported in, so the players were not entitled to the DC 20 perception check.
Second, if it were considered movement, they should then be entitled to use stealth as part of the teleportation move.
On topic, this is exactly why Ashiel should not be a rules consultant. Ashiel argues that casters are overpowered while almost invariably interpreting rules in ways that favor casters.
If your stated position is that you see a problem in the rule, and your interpretation of rules consistently makes the problem worse...
It is like a doctor who says "You have diabetes" and then offers you a soda.
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Continual FlameSchool evocation [light]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 2
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Teleportation is not movement by the way. Movement in game terms refers to methods of motion with an assigned speed such as walking, flying, swimming and so on.If teleportation were movement you could provoke for casting a spell, and the actual teleporting itself.
From dimensional anchor description
A green ray springs from your hand. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target. Any creature or object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred by a dimensional anchor include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like abilities. The spell also prevents the use of a gate or teleportation circle for the duration of the spell.
A dimensional anchor does not interfere with the movement of creatures already in ethereal or astral form when the spell is cast, nor does it block extradimensional perception or attack forms. Also, dimensional anchor does not prevent summoned creatures from disappearing at the end of a summoning spell.
The dev should be more careful with the words.
Ashiel even used "moving" to describe it, which is when taking stealth as part of teleportation was added to the argument.
The Devs are limited by the english language and the desire of some people to find loopholes. The over 500 page rulebook would be more than sufficient if people weren't constantly trying to find ways to break the system further to show how clever they are.
Continual FlameSchool evocation [light]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 2
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Teleportation is not movement by the way. Movement in game terms refers to methods of motion with an assigned speed such as walking, flying, swimming and so on.If teleportation were movement you could provoke for casting a spell, and the actual teleporting itself.
From dimensional anchor description
A green ray springs from your hand. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target. Any creature or object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred by a dimensional anchor include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like abilities. The spell also prevents the use of a gate or teleportation circle for the duration of the spell.
A dimensional anchor does not interfere with the movement of creatures already in ethereal or astral form when the spell is cast, nor does it block extradimensional perception or attack forms. Also, dimensional anchor does not prevent summoned creatures from disappearing at the end of a summoning spell.
The dev should be more careful with the words.
There are other places where this happens also. The word "level" is still a pain in the butt for new people.
I think movement dictated by speed should use the word "travel". Movement is very general.
I actually had a similar think with a movanic deva captured by some powerful kytons. But, instead of forcing him to work for them, they tortured him and drove the poor angel to insanity, keeping him locked up in their dungeon for daily beatings. Once the players saw this broken angel driven to madness, they did their best to subdue him and try to cure him of his insanity. Was a very memorable and when they saved him, they earned a new ally.
I am not following, but I do admit I did not read all the post in the other thread either.The invisibility rule says that players get a DC 20 perception check to detect active invisible creatures within 30 feet.
The argument as I understand it had two parts.
First, that teleportation was not movement, so whatever was teleporting in was not considered active when it teleported in, so the players were not entitled to the DC 20 perception check.
Second, if it were considered movement, they should then be entitled to use stealth as part of the teleportation move.
On topic, this is exactly why Ashiel should not be a rules consultant. Ashiel argues that casters are overpowered while almost invariably interpreting rules in ways that favor casters.
If your stated position is that you see a problem in the rule, and your interpretation of rules consistently makes the problem worse...
It is like a doctor who says "You have diabetes" and then offers you a soda.
I never noticed the word "active" before. I guess active would mean doing something.
My take on it. If you teleport into the area you are not active. You were active before you landed at your new destination. If you take an action, even casting a silent stilled spell, you are active. Now I don't see how this would make you noticeable(allow a perception check), but many things in the rules are there for balance so I would allow a perception check in that case anyway.
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I am not following, but I do admit I did not read all the post in the other thread either.The invisibility rule says that players get a DC 20 perception check to detect active invisible creatures within 30 feet.
The argument as I understand it had two parts.
First, that teleportation was not movement, so whatever was teleporting in was not considered active when it teleported in, so the players were not entitled to the DC 20 perception check.
Second, if it were considered movement, they should then be entitled to use stealth as part of the teleportation move.
On topic, this is exactly why Ashiel should not be a rules consultant. Ashiel argues that casters are overpowered while almost invariably interpreting rules in ways that favor casters.
If your stated position is that you see a problem in the rule, and your interpretation of rules consistently makes the problem worse...
It is like a doctor who says "You have diabetes" and then offers you a soda.
I never noticed the word "active" before. I guess active would mean doing something.
My take on it. If you teleport into the area you are not active. You were active before you landed at your new destination. If you take an action, even casting a silent stilled spell, you are active. Now I don't see how this would make you noticeable(allow a perception check), but many things in the rules are there for balance so I would allow a perception check in that case anyway.
And if the players get a perception check, assuming either the monk or barbarian in the example are with 30 feet of the wizard when the creature teleports in, they would notice on anything but a 1 (as both have over 20 perception) and then during that round before the creature that teleported in could teleport away the party should be able to
A) Realize something invisible is near
B) Address the invisibility (they are 13th level at this point...)
C) Attack what is now visible next to them.
Your Barb is actually better in this set up thanks to pounce. And the creature at this point isn't nearly as overpowered.
But why interpret the rule in any way that doesn't make them overpowered? That would be silly.
Wraithstrike has the right of it. Active = Actions. This was discussed in the other thread. You are not taking actions when you appear in the 30 ft. area. And as for your question "But why interpret the rule in any way that doesn't make them overpowered? That would be silly.", the answer is because it is interpreted in the most logical way. Who are you to say it is overpowered? Who are we to say it is not? It doesn't matter. It merely is what it is.
I actually do not ascribe to the idea that casters are hugely overpowered. I do believe magic is powerful. As do I believe that casters have more options (and options are a form of power). However, interpreting things in ways that are illogical does not make the game more balanced. It only makes it less consistent, which in turn hurts the game as a whole. Vagueness is an enemy. Logic and reason are allies. Vagueness begets arguments, discord, and bending of potentials. For this reason I sought to eliminate vagueness from Simulacrum when I re-wrote it for Wraithstrike; to make it more playable, and easier to adjudicate. I looked at what was considered problematic in the written simulacrum and figured out how to keep the spirit of the spell without allowing things such as infinite wishes, or creating solars who cast spells like 20th level casters.
The first step is admitting that there is a problem. Ironically, this whole invisible ghaele thing is rather irrelevant to casters and their power in the grand scheme of things. If I had my way, invisibility wouldn't provide a +20-40 bonus on Stealth checks at all, but would just make you Invisible (and thus allow you to comfortably Stealth within the 30 ft. with no issues). I find that pretty OP myself, but it's clearly spelled out in the rules.
Some people find the ring of sustenance grossly overpowered. Others find the life-drinker to be game-destroying. Someone else banned prestidigitation because it was too awesome. Ultimately, I don't really care. I want the game to run smoothly, and I want to be able to use the rules to adjudicate issues when they arise.
Which is what happened here. We determined that the rules mention that you can make a DC 20 check to notice active creatures in a specific radius. Active is not defined in the game so we go to the definition of the word, which takes us to action. An active creature is one that is taking actions. So is the ghaele taking actions within the 30 ft. radius to provoke a DC 20 Perception check? The answer is definitively no.
The Ghaele took and completed an action outside of the radius, when it used its SLA to greater teleport. The action complete, the Ghaele teleported and appeared in the radius. The Ghaele is not taking actions in the radius but has a move action left to do with as it pleases (even if it pleases to do nothing with it).
I am honored that Grimmy and some others feel I would be a good rule adviser. Whether that is true or not, I do wish that the rules were cleaned up. Many of the revisions were poorly implemented, and at perhaps no fault to the Paizo developers, could really have used some more cleaning and better writing. When you're selling a rule set, you need those rules to be definitive, as easy to read as possible, and consistent.
It's because of this that I am slowly (very slowly in fact) working on a rebuild of the system, which as many of the problem areas as I can find trimmed, and stuff grouped together. When I am done with it, it should read more like a rule compendium or giant glossary. If I can, I'll avoid scattering important rules throughout the books. That sort of thing burns me up (for example, the Stealth skill doesn't explain Stealth, as you also have to find little critical bits in the environment section, combat section, and more; likewise the potion rules say that you can make a potion out of any targeted spell, which would include spells with a target of YOU; but buried in the back of the magic item creation rules, it says you can't make potions of personal range spells. That sort of junk should really be grouped together, or at the very least say something like "see X and Y for additional rules").
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The most logical way to interpret teleporting into a square is to not describe that as an action?
You yourself said that the Ghaele was moving into the square when it helped your argument, but that movement is now not an action when it hurts your argument.
If I were seeking a rules consultant, I would look for one who wasn't looking for ways to get around the rules. And I would want someone who was more interested in investigating a question to find the answer rather than interpreting the rule to defend the predetermined position.
There are many, many people like that on here, which is why many of us come to the messageboard to learn more about the game...in spite of those who aren't like that.
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I am not following, but I do admit I did not read all the post in the other thread either.The invisibility rule says that players get a DC 20 perception check to detect active invisible creatures within 30 feet.
The argument as I understand it had two parts.
First, that teleportation was not movement, so whatever was teleporting in was not considered active when it teleported in, so the players were not entitled to the DC 20 perception check.
Second, if it were considered movement, they should then be entitled to use stealth as part of the teleportation move.
On topic, this is exactly why Ashiel should not be a rules consultant. Ashiel argues that casters are overpowered while almost invariably interpreting rules in ways that favor casters.
If your stated position is that you see a problem in the rule, and your interpretation of rules consistently makes the problem worse...
It is like a doctor who says "You have diabetes" and then offers you a soda.
I never noticed the word "active" before. I guess active would mean doing something.
My take on it. If you teleport into the area you are not active. You were active before you landed at your new destination. If you take an action, even casting a silent stilled spell, you are active. Now I don't see how this would make you noticeable(allow a perception check), but many things in the rules are there for balance so I would allow a perception check in that case anyway.
And if the players get a perception check, assuming either the monk or barbarian in the example are with 30 feet of the wizard when the creature teleports in, they would notice on anything but a 1 (as both have over 20 perception) and then during that round before the creature that teleported in could teleport away the party should be able to
A) Realize something invisible is near
B) Address the invisibility (they are 13th level at this point...)
C) Attack what is now...
The spell is instantaneous. The action was over upon spell completion. When he arrives he is no longer active.
B. Levels don't matter. Either the rules allow X or they don't.
I interpret the rules as they are. Whether are not they are overpowered is not a factor and it is also subjective. Some things might be OP, but I can't just apply my own meaning because I don't like it. It is what it is.
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It merely is what it is.
Stop that. No mind reading is allowed. :)
The most logical way to interpret teleporting into a square is to not describe that as an action?
You yourself said that the Ghaele was moving into the square when it helped your argument, but that movement is now not an action when it hurts your argument.
Can one of you provide the quote for this?
PS:As an aside if someone contradicts themselves it always helps to show the contradicting posts. That way the person can either make a decision or explain how the contradiction is not a contradiction. I look like to watch people squirm, if I think they are just trying to "win" the debate, and not find the truth. :)
The rules say "active" not action. We are not trying to decide what counts as active. I would rule that you have to take some sort of action while in the area since the invisible rules give you a +40 for not moving. When you teleport in the area you are not moving. It is not much different than being teleported in star trek except you don't give to see the mean that puts them on the ground. You just appear on the ground, just as you were when you left the previous location.
Now if the ghaele lands in water I guess the GM could rule that the water created a visible effect, but by the rules landing in water is not more active than landing on the ground.
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The way I see it, the rules can't stand up to the same level of scrutiny as a legal document or a line of code.
All we need is something that does reasonably well conveying intent.
As for "rules consultant" it's a title that I've seen used to describe someone working in sort of an auxiliary, advisory capacity. One example is Monte Cook, for Pathfinder and more recently, if abortively, for DnD Next. Another example is Zach Smith from dndwithpornstars, whose position as a rules consultant for WotC apparently entails no more then having signed a non-disclosure agreement, and replying to emails from Mearls asking "we're thinking of doing x, what do you think?" and Zach says "how about y?".
I'm pretty sure they are asking him because he has a unique take. Sometimes he describes what he does as hacking a set of rules.
There are a lot of people who can answer questions for me that I was too lazy to look up in the book, and I do appreciate that. Ashiel hacks. I just think a company responsible for developing a game system can only benefit by having someone like that on their team, even if it's only to do penetration testing.
Does that make sense?
If teleportation is movement in the same sense the running or swimming is then why does it not provoke an attack of oppoturnity.
2. You can't teleport until the spell is complete. Once the spell is complete the your action is complete, and you appear in the new area.
Action Types
An action's type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, swift actions, immediate actions, and free actions.
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions.
As you can see movement is strictly referring to speed inhibited locomotion such as land speed, flying, and so on.
Move
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
Once again we have speed inhibited movement.
Divine PursuitSchool transmutation; Level inquisitor 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Component V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level; see text
Select one creature within 60 feet that you have damaged. If that creature has a burrow, climb, fly, or swim speed, you gain that form of movement for the duration of the spell at the same speed and maneuverability as the selected creature. If this gives you the burrow or swim speed, you can breathe while burrowing or swimming. If the creature moves 1,000 feet or more from you, the spell ends. If the creature has more than one of these types of movement, you select one from the types available to the creature.
Once again we have speed inhibited type movement.
WithdrawWithdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can't withdraw from combat if you're blinded. You can't take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.
If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.
You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don't have a listed speed.
Once again....
Movement in Combat: Generally, you can move your speed in a round and still do something (take a move action and a standard action).
At no point is teleporting a mode of movement. It is just the result of a spell, SLA, or SU. It is not an action in and of itself
The way I see it, the rules can't stand up to the same level of scrutiny as a legal document or a line of code.
All we need is something that does reasonably well conveying intent.
This is also correct.
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The most logical way to interpret teleporting into a square is to not describe that as an action?
You yourself said that the Ghaele was moving into the square when it helped your argument, but that movement is now not an action when it hurts your argument.
Can one of you provide the quote for this?
PS:As an aside if someone contradicts themselves it always helps to show the contradicting posts. That way the person can either make a decision or explain how the contradiction is not a contradiction. I look like to watch people squirm, if I think they are just trying to "win" the debate, and not find the truth. :)
I did. This was the exchange in the other thread
ciretose wrote:
@Ashiel- Actually you said "Teleport then occurs, moving the ghaele."
Ashiel responded
"I did. Because I'm fine either way. The question is pretty simple. It's either moving the Ghaele about and not counted as movement, or the Ghaele gets to make his Stealth check as part of the Teleportation and thus is Stealthing immediately upon arrival."
Nicos, I think they are using the word movement here as plain English, not jargon, or a strictly defined game term. Another possibility is that there is movement, even in the game mechanic sense, but the movement occurs on another plane, and you have ceased moving already before you return to the material plane in a new location.
It definitely starts to screw with my head when I examine it this closely, but it's something that would never give me pause during a game, because it's only on these boards that we started reading the rules like legalese. In game it would never occur to me to waste time considering that someone who was standing there doing nothing should be considered "active" because they had used teleport to get to where they were doing nothing, and there was a quote somewhere that used the word movement in a sentence describing teleportation.
While we are discussing I will also go back to my earlier statement that any action takes place during the spell not, not after the spell has taken affect.
Now it is better to get a perception check after the fact though, but I doubt that is RAW.
As an example if an invisible caster DD's to the other side of the battlefield he is active once he starts to cast the spell. Upon completion of the spell he is no longer active.
This is also correct.The way I see it, the rules can't stand up to the same level of scrutiny as a legal document or a line of code.
All we need is something that does reasonably well conveying intent.
I'm glad you agree but I also appreciate when you push the rules in that direction like you are doing above, because it can only make a better game.
Magic the Gathering does this well.
I can see a future addition of the game we play with words bolded or something to denote that they are being used in the strictly defined game mechanic sense and not the common English definition.
Does entering a threatened square via teleport provoke an attack of opportunity?
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The space within 30 feet was empty, now it isn't. If you can detect something invisible within 30 feet, and something invisible arrives within 30 feet of you, logically you would be able to detect that change in your surrounding if you make the perception check.
If something is teleporting, logically it is doing something and it is active. The assumption that the completion of the spell occurs prior to the teleportation and that immediately after you are completely silent and land perfectly balanced with no noise or motion is an assumption made because it fits the outcome desired, not something you would logically conclude given the fact you are moving a medium creature into a space.
You have to make at least two leaps of logic to not allow players a perception check when a medium creature appears within 30 feet. First, you have to say that something teleporting into a space that had nothing before wouldn't be an action, because if it were they would be active and therefore detectable. And you also have to say that something appearing suddenly where nothing was before, something we know would leave footprints, displace water, etc...wouldn't be something that could be noticed.
That to me isn't a logical reading.
The most logical way to interpret teleporting into a square is to not describe that as an action?
You yourself said that the Ghaele was moving into the square when it helped your argument, but that movement is now not an action when it hurts your argument.
Can one of you provide the quote for this?
PS:As an aside if someone contradicts themselves it always helps to show the contradicting posts. That way the person can either make a decision or explain how the contradiction is not a contradiction. I look like to watch people squirm, if I think they are just trying to "win" the debate, and not find the truth. :)
I did. This was the exchange in the other thread
ciretose wrote:
@Ashiel- Actually you said "Teleport then occurs, moving the ghaele."Ashiel responded
"I did. Because I'm fine either way. The question is pretty simple. It's either moving the Ghaele about and not counted as movement, or the Ghaele gets to make his Stealth check as part of the Teleportation and thus is Stealthing immediately upon arrival."
The Ghaele can not teleport and stealth by my understanding of the most common use of the word "movement".
Ashiel-->Now the action the Ghaele took is over the moment the spell is cast. The ghaele spends an action to cast teleport. Teleport then occurs, moving the ghaele. The actual teleporting is not the ghaele doing anything. The ghaele appears in an area, unseen, unheard, and simply stands still (+57 stealth modifier for the Ghaele) and waits.
I think she is saying the same thing I am saying. Moving in this sense is only referring to giving it a new location, not moving as in walking or even moving your arm.
In the part you have quoted she is saying that she is fine either with teleporting not counting as movement, or allowing it to stealth upon arrival if it is counted as movement. The way she sees it the ghaele has a +40 to stealth for not being active or she get to stealth upon arrival and gets to add her stealth bonus from being invisible. She sees either interpretation as a win.
Ashiel feel free to correct me if I misunderstood.
Nicos I can see that interpretation, it's not that far out, but that just means the ghaele would get a stealth check with a huge bonus for being invisible right?
If you want to do it that way, fine it's your game, but to me it feels like a clunkier way to get to probably the same outcome.
I don't mind that some things in the game are simplified, like the lack of facing rules, or defining which hand is your main and which is off-hand. It just streamlines things.
From pretty early in the history of the game Gary Gygax said its more of a fun game then a strict simulationist game, and Im cool with that.
This is also correct.The way I see it, the rules can't stand up to the same level of scrutiny as a legal document or a line of code.
All we need is something that does reasonably well conveying intent.
I'm glad you agree but I also appreciate when you push the rules in that direction like you are doing above, because it can only make a better game.
Magic the Gathering does this well.
I can see a future addition of the game we play with words bolded or something to denote that they are being used in the strictly defined game mechanic sense and not the common English definition.
I saw these issues in 3.5 where fluff text and flavor text were intermingled. It annoyed me to no end. Having words highlighted or more careful used of words would help a lot. 3.5 also most of their keywords defined.
I agree 100% she sees either interpretation as win. And that is largely my point.
It is about winning, not the rules.
By a win I meant an advantage for the caster in question.
The space within 30 feet was empty, now it isn't. If you can detect something invisible within 30 feet, and something invisible arrives within 30 feet of you, logically you would be able to detect that change in your surrounding if you make the perception check.
If something is teleporting, logically it is doing something and it is active. The assumption that the completion of the spell occurs prior to the teleportation and that immediately after you are completely silent and land perfectly balanced with no noise or motion is an assumption made because it fits the outcome desired, not something you would logically conclude given the fact you are moving a medium creature into a space.
You have to make at least two leaps of logic to not allow players a perception check when a medium creature appears within 30 feet. First, you have to say that something teleporting into a space that had nothing before wouldn't be an action, because if it were they would be active and therefore detectable. And you also have to say that something appearing suddenly where nothing was before, something we know would leave footprints, displace water, etc...wouldn't be something that could be noticed.
That to me isn't a logical reading.
It is logical if you only look at what the rules tell you. The rules say the creature must be active. Appearing is not being active.
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By a win I meant an advantage for the caster in question.I agree 100% she sees either interpretation as win. And that is largely my point.
It is about winning, not the rules.
So do I. In most threads this is how her (I should stop saying her, I know she is a dude, but until he confirms it I feel like call him a she because it is another example of the "look at me" kind of thing..anyway...)reading of the rules goes.
I am reading the rule in the way that allows the most leeway to the caster or player to do the thing I want them to do in the given argument I am having.
Does entering a threatened square via teleport provoke an attack of opportunity?No, because the attack is when you proceed through a threatened square and you aren't going through a threatened square.
But a 5 foot step doesn't provoke either, and no one would reasonably argue that isn't movement.
Yes, but a 5' step is clearly defined as movement, and is a caveat to movement provoking.
I actually agree, that a person should get some kind of a check if someone, invisible or no, just pops in. Not because of movement or displacement, but hairs raising on your neck kind of awareness.