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Petition: I nominate Ashiel to work for Paizo as Rules Consultant


Off-Topic Discussions

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Tels wrote:
I believe Lord Wraithstrike only has one Domain - Awesome. Awesome Domain allows the caster to use any and all Domain powers as the caster chooses.

I am pretty well rounded so I can accept that, not that best at any one thing, but pretty good all around.


Tels wrote:

I would imagine the feat Adept Channel plays a large part in the success of the military. I imagine that an Undead with Adepts every ten ranks with Adept Channel and Extra Channel* would be a terrifying enemy to face.

When you think about it, your Undead Utopia would be a pain in the ass to conquer via armies. Not only does it have fully living citizens, they're citizens continue to serve after death. You effectively double the size of the army because no one ceases to serve.

*Extra Channel requires Channel Energy class feature, while Adept Channel grants the ability to Channel Energy as a feat. Technically, Adept's won't qualify, but I really don't see it as unreasonable to allow it.

Actually, that's pretty much the main reason the colonies and their homeland culture haven't been wiped out. Both are sitting close to enemies, but in the case of the colonies they have an diplomatic alliance with a neighboring nation (who traded them the land in fact) and a strong border presence. The fact that if it came to war, they would surely reanimate any soldiers who died fighting them and turn them into their new front lines. Plus, all adepts are trained in simple weapons and cast divine spells (so they can cast spells in armor). Since the vast majority of people in my world are of real-life power (IE - 1st level), adepts casting sleep while undead march along would really put a damper on enemy morale and numbers.

Plus, some undead are created solely for military defense. After some scrapes with the Templar Knights of the northern lands, the governess had some special undead produced. These are burning bloody skeleton birds (like chickens) which are used for practical purposes (like heating stuff) until battle occurs. Then they just run the lil' flaming bastards into the ranks of enemies. They burn everything around them, explode when they are killed, and then regenerate about an hour later to be used again.

Their homeland, a vast and sandy desert with monoliths and pyramids, is surrounded by miles and miles of harsh weathered deserts that get very hot, cold nights, with very little water, and natural dangers abound. Their location and the conditioning of their people makes marching armies against them nearly impossible (all their citizens are capable of casting create water and endure elements, while their undead ignore thirst, starvation, heat dangers, fatigue, and so forth). Anyone who was to actually try to wipe them out would look like the crusader army in Kingdom of Heaven, only about x10 as bad.


Hmm... possible clothing for National Holidays?

Personally, I'd love to wear that shirt at my next Kingmaker session because my GM has decided the entire populace of my Kingdom (I'm the Grand Diplomat) thinks I'm a Necromancer. Despite the fact that the only spells they've ever seen me cast, dissolved the flesh from trolls, manifest fiery explosions, and conjured forth large balls of fire that rolled around burning everything in it's path, infused my allies with the speed of the wind, or uttered a few words and watched as I fired rainbows from my hand so intense it blew peoples minds. Thank you Chaoseffect for the best spell description ever!

Granted, my Wizard does know two Necromancy spells, but they're Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaustion, and I've never cast either one within 100 miles of my Kingdom.[/rant]

Hmm, I'm building a first level Adept in such a kingdom in my head. As one of the traits, I imagine each one taking Two-World Magic and picking Prestidigitation (to keep the undead clean). At least in the case of the Undead handlers, but it's such an awesome spell, it'd be a good trait for every (sub)class of Adepts to have. Either that, or casters from that region add Prestidigitation to their spell list as a 0-level spell without needing a trait :P

I could easily picture some sort of Adept Highschool to focus the power of their casting into their chosen profession. The builders taking item-creation feats when possible, the warriors focusing more on things like Spell Focus to sleep bomb armies, the healers taking the feat Healer's Touch when possible...

Now all they need is a floating city and some guy to get an ego and think he can steal the power from Nethys. But something like that is just crazy talk... right? :P

[Edit] Or maybe they all take Necromantic Affinity?


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Pretty cool idea! I might allow clerics of Ashiel in my campaign setting if this got done. Wraithstrike name would sound a lot different then the other deities in my pantheon, so I'd have to think about it, just because of the sound of the name.


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Grimmy wrote:
Pretty cool idea! I might allow clerics of Ashiel in my campaign setting if this got done. Wraithstrike name would sound a lot different then the other deities in my pantheon, so I'd have to think about it, just because of the sound of the name.

Lord Wraithstrike is obviously a Demon Lord that has risen above pure chaos and evil, he simply has no alignment (even neutral). He supports any cause he wishes, good/evil law/chaos. That's why he grants access to the Awesome Domain.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Ashiel's 'undead paradise' runs into problems from a believability standpoint.

First, animated undead are naturally evil and want to kill the living. They are instinctively destructive, malicious, and looking for ways to kill living things. Unless they are rode herd on 'all the time', they aren't going to farm productively...they don't have skill ranks. Instead, they will instinctively mess up and seek to destroy the agriculture unless controlled all the time.

Second, an entire population made of adepts is statistically impossible. No commoners, warriors, or experts at all...everyone an adept. Sure, everything looks rosier when every single being is a spellcaster.

The fact that it is expensive to animate those undead (25 gp a HD), and dangerous to control them (seriously, kill one adept controlling the undead, send the undead he controlled to kill another, send those undead to kill a third) and in a matter of hours as the adepts are slaughtered you have wild masses of undead butchering the undead right and left in a zombie apocalypse of your own making. One group of theives assassinating a few adept zombie handlers could easily bring down the entire kingdom...of the living, at the least.

Which is how any clever enemy would approach the problem...render the undead uncontrolled, and they'll immediately turn on their controllers...which also helpfully points out the controlled for further elimination/targeting.

And seriously, if one force can support a massive force of undead and the waste of manpower to keep them under constant control, the other can take steps to overcome the terrain. It isn't like water is a problem in Ashiel's campaigns, and the costs of food is minimal. The burning skeletons can either be released from enemy control while still in their ranks, promptly wreaking havoc on their former controllers ...or you can simply throw alchemist frost/holy water bombs on them, and seperate the bones.

And no, you won't be animating the enemy soldiers unless you kill them all, and in a siege situation the bodies will simply be destroyed to prevent them from being raided.

================
As a means of beefing up your undead army, do you have access to Relic and Rituals' books, Ashiel? You might like the way they make three stronger then zombie undead out of one corpse (one using the skin, one using the bones, and one using the meat). They were recycled nicely in the City of Tsar module, if you have that.

==Aelryinth


You might want to read up on your Golarion Lore a little more. Geb is a nation that where the undead 'live' and mindless undead work the fields there. Food products are a major export for Geb. So Ashiel's idea isn't crazy nor does it have major problems, as Golarion has a similar concept.

Also, it wouldn't really be that hard to control Undead. Mostly, it's story, but the rules are there to see it done. For instance, the Undead Handlers could be raised as Undead Lords so they can control and direct the Undead they control, day and night.

This way, if your Undead Lord controlling the Undead is killed in a battle, then the now free Undead are still going to be attacking the enemy as they will be the closest humans.

A variant of the Graveknight could also be employed as controllers. They control 5 HD of undead per HD, and if they were a Cleric before hand, they can still control them as a Cleric. If they were also a Wizard, they can use the spell Command Undead to control them that way as well.

It's not very hard to imagine a country full of Undead as a manual labor force.

Keep in mind, this is a homebrew world, Ashiel can choose the undead to be whatever alignment he wishes. Perhaps, since the citizens choose to use undead, and know about it, they're funerals are actually animations instead. Maybe undead that arise through this ceremony, are of a neutral alignment instead.

Also, I wasn't aware that undead actively seek out and destroy the living. I know some of them do, but I don't think Zombies and Skeletons do.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Zombies do.

Quote:
Zombies are unthinking automatons, and can do little more than follow orders. When left unattended, zombies tend to mill about in search of living creatures to slaughter and devour. Zombies attack until destroyed, having no regard for their own safety.


Aelryinth wrote:
...

Did you really come all the way over here again to start a new argument over fluff for a creature that has throughout D&D's history been mindless and inert and Neutral aligned in more editions of D&D than it has been Evil? A mindless creature that cannot think or reason and has no instincts? Really? Really? I mean, really, I didn't piss in your cornflakes.

You do realize that even in Pathfinder, skeletons don't even do what you claim them to do, right?

PRD-Skeletons wrote:
Skeletons are the animated bones of the dead, brought to unlife through foul magic. While most skeletons are mindless automatons, they still possess an evil cunning imparted to them by their animating force—a cunning that allows them to wield weapons and wear armor.

Mindless automotons whose evil cunning apparently allow them to wield weapons and armor. Who knew. I guess Paladins will need to cast off their weapons and armors, since that's apparently "evil cunning".

I forget whether it was Jason or James, but one of them even petitioned the staff when working on Pathfinder that they either make them neutral or give them intelligence to justify their alignments; but it was shot down for "backwards compatibility with 3.5". I was told this, directly, on these very boards. The only two editions of D&D that mindless undead were evil in (outside of an optional sourcebook which was neither intended for everyone, nor was it assumed as part of the edition) is 3.5 and 4E. OD&D, 1E D&D, AD&D, 2E D&D, AD&D 2E, and 3E all included these creatures as Neutral aligned mindless creatures. 3E was the first edition to restrict Good-aligned clerics from casting animate dead and none of them prevent Good-aligned wizards from doing the same (nor do adepts have such restrictions).

As for the 25 gp per HD thing, that's not really a problem. Your average untrained laborer pulls 5 gp a week taking 10 on an untrained craft or profession check. Mindless undead have a +0 to both Craft and Profession checks. A trained individual can oversee the work of untrained labor per the rules. A trained individual with a +4 modifier pulls 7 gp per week. The average cost of living is 10 gp / month.

In essence, a single 1HD skeleton who has no cost of living produces 20 gp worth of work per month. The skeleton pays for itself in labor in 2 months. That's also assuming you don't rule that the skeleton can pull multiple shifts. A skeleton janitor could clean 1st, 2nd, and 3rd shift. But just assuming we go purely with RAW and only allow them 8 hours of work per day, the productivity is enough that they are a good investment. Especially since they do not need to eat, sleep, and do not get sick.

A skeleton ox means that you can eat their meat and still plow the field with them. An ox costs 15 gp. An ox skeleton is just as strong and can work just as harder, longer, regardless of weather, and only requires an investment of 75 more gold pieces. This ox is actually technically more capable of some things than an actual ox, because its effective Intelligence bonus is +0 (an ox is -4). It's a bone robot is what it is.

So you end up with a caste of mindless workers who do labor for their overlords. If they are uncontrolled, they stand around doing nothing until someone comes along and casts command undead or controls them via some other means; because regardless of what you say, not even the Bestiary makes a claim that these mindless undead who lack instincts and operate solely on the instructions and magical direction of their masters go on berserk killing sprees when released from control.

Meanwhile, the living people are preforming management duties and developing their culture. In many was their society is similar to Egyptians, with undead dragging stones and working fields instead of Hebrew slaves.

Quote:
As a means of beefing up your undead army, do you have access to Relic and Rituals' books, Ashiel? You might like the way they make three stronger then zombie undead out of one corpse (one using the skin, one using the bones, and one using the meat). They were recycled nicely in the City of Tsar module, if you have that.

Nope. Never heard of it actually. But they're not a culture that is big on warfare. Given that death for undead is more permanent than for the living (no raise dead for you), their leaders have a greater respect for life than many might think. They have their methods of war, but in general having legions of soldiers who are nearly immune to arrows, about as competent as 1st level human warriors (who make up the vast bulk of armies in this world), and are immune to morale problems is generally good enough. They also have the flaming undead bombs, and could cover their undead in brown mold if they were really threatened (brown mold deals 3d6 nonlethal cold damage with no save to anything within 5 ft. of the undead, and grows rapidly if exposed to fire within 5 ft.). If enemies tried to kill them with fire, the mold would spread and tear the other army apart. They just kill the mold with ray of frost, an ice bath, or similar method if they need to remove it, at no harm to the skeletons.

They are not the most powerful force on the planet. Only that they are strong enough and successful enough that they have been relatively unmolested, or have been able to negotiate through hostilities. However, their biggest enemies as far as the colonies are concerned is the knight order that exists in a neighboring nation that is separate from the nation's government (but politically powerful due to religious and military strength) that hates them purely out of principle and causes border skirmishes. The result is one country believes those to the south are godless monsters, and the other country believes those to the north are barbaric terrorists.

Adventurers get to enjoy being mixed in the details.


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This is not an area in which I would want to go toe-to-toe with Ashiel.

This is someone who has calculated how many gallons of water a population would need per day for everything from crops, to doing dishes and brushing teeth.

This is someone who has min-maxed food to get the best tasting meals for your characters cheaper then trail rations.

I'm sure there are plenty of other people you can pick on for being lazy about running numbers to back up their kewl fluff ideas, but come on. Why Ashiel? Why here? Why now?


Tels wrote:
A variant of the Graveknight could also be employed as controllers. They control 5 HD of undead per HD, and if they were a Cleric before hand, they can still control them as a Cleric. If they were also a Wizard, they can use the spell Command Undead to control them that way as well.

Actually, many of their high ranking leaders who are actually of more than normal human power are theurgist philosophers and scholars of both arcane and spiritual magics (fun fact, a theurgist is actually an Egyptian mage-priest).

As mystic theurges, they have 2 caster levels capable of supporting undead at the same time. For example, if you're a Cleric 7 / Wizard 7, you can control 48 HD of undead. A theurgist in D&D can reach the most HD of undead controlled in core, because they can hid CL 17 / 13 and then apply caster level buffs that apply to both sides (Ioun stone provides +1 caster level to both, and out of core you can take a trait that allows you to treat your caster level as being +2 higher for Animate Dead).

You were also right. Funeral rites bid farewell and safe journeys of the soul from the lifeless husk, and then the lifeless husk is animated with magic to serve the living community.


Grimmy wrote:

This is not an area in which I would want to go toe-to-toe with Ashiel.

This is someone who has calculated how many gallons of water a population would need per day for everything from crops, to doing dishes and brushing teeth.

This is someone who has min-maxed food to get the best tasting meals for your characters cheaper then trail rations.

I'm sure there are plenty of other people you can pick on for being lazy about running numbers to back up their kewl fluff ideas, but come on. Why Ashiel? Why here? Why now?

You shall make me blush. (^.^)"


Aelryiel, I hope you don't read my above post as a challenge being issued.

I don't enjoy watching you two fight. It's boring and it gives me a bad headache. I cant just leave the thread because I'm here for the cool stories were sharing.

It's an Ashiel appreciation thread, why do you want to come into it if you don't appreciate Ashiel?

My sincere request to you is not that you leave, but that you share a story like others are doing. Favorite encounter you've run, cool villain concept, whatever.

No one will try to dismantle it, or prove its mechanically unsound, even if it is. Maybe bonus points for consistency with RAW and for preserving verisimilitude, because those are design elements many of us aspire to. But we won't bash you even if you just tell a cool story that would never work.


Ashiel wrote:
Tels wrote:
A variant of the Graveknight could also be employed as controllers. They control 5 HD of undead per HD, and if they were a Cleric before hand, they can still control them as a Cleric. If they were also a Wizard, they can use the spell Command Undead to control them that way as well.

Actually, many of their high ranking leaders who are actually of more than normal human power are theurgist philosophers and scholars of both arcane and spiritual magics (fun fact, a theurgist is actually an Egyptian mage-priest).

As mystic theurges, they have 2 caster levels capable of supporting undead at the same time. For example, if you're a Cleric 7 / Wizard 7, you can control 48 HD of undead. A theurgist in D&D can reach the most HD of undead controlled in core, because they can hid CL 17 / 13 and then apply caster level buffs that apply to both sides (Ioun stone provides +1 caster level to both, and out of core you can take a trait that allows you to treat your caster level as being +2 higher for Animate Dead).

You were also right. Funeral rites bid farewell and safe journeys of the soul from the lifeless husk, and then the lifeless husk is animated with magic to serve the living community.

Wasn't even thinking about that, those are just the things that came to mind. I myself plan on creating an Undead Lord/Zombie Lord Martial-Artist Monk that serves as flanker for a Graveknight Anti-Paladin wielding a Life-Drinker. Very much so a boss encounter, not till higher levels.


Incidentally Aelryiel, I didn't know the bonemen, meatmen and sandmen from Tsar was rehashed from Relics and Rituals. I thought Greg Vaughan had come up with that as an original idea for the module. Thanks for the tidbit of industry lore?

Relics & Rituals was a Sword & Sorcery book from Necromancer right? So maybe Greg Vaughan did have a part in the idea. Neck he may have even written that part of Tsar before Relics & Rituals came out.

Osirion

Grimmy wrote:

Incidentally Aelryiel, I didn't know the bonemen, meatmen and sandmen from Tsar was rehashed from Relics and Rituals. I thought Greg Vaughan had come up with that as an original idea for the module. Thanks for the tidbit of industry lore?

Relics & Rituals was a Sword & Sorcery book from Necromancer right? So maybe Greg Vaughan did have a part in the idea. Neck he may have even written that part of Tsar before Relics & Rituals came out.

'Seige Undead' (bonemen, meatmen, sandmen) were from Creature Collection 2 (from Sword & Sorcery / White Wolf). Greg Vaughn was not listed as a contributer or author for that book, although it's entirely possible he was overlooked, as there were *tons* of contributers...


Hmmm... villains eh? How about a campaign idea I've been working on, off and on, for some 3 years now. It's been frustrating because I've twice now lost my notebook that had all the details, and recently, my computer fried and can't afford to get a new one. Fortunately, the memory is still good (the motherboard broke when a sibling dropped it), so I'll be able to recover the notes off there.

Some things have changed since I made these posts, but the over-all story is mostly unchanged.

Orb of Winter idea.

Gashadokuro Boss.

Some notes:
I plan on replacing some of the story for Gashadokuro with the Anti-Paladin/Graveknight and have the party fight the Graveknight but play him up as a custom Skeletal Champion (which I've done before, I really taught my party to fear skeletons again). They will 'kill' him, but it'll be a ruse used to both throw them off, gauge their power, and do... something, I forget what it was; it's in my notes though!

I'd like to introduce him even earlier on in City of Golden Death as a servant of the Whispering Tyrant, but was turned into a Graveknight when he was left behind in the city to guard the Gem. The PCs will awaken him there, and fight him but he'll be very underpowered (the magic holding him together will be weakened, and Nicholas will restore him). From then on, he'll be more of a re-occuring villain that hounds them.

I suggest reading the links before the spoiler.


Tels wrote:
Wasn't even thinking about that, those are just the things that came to mind. I myself plan on creating an Undead Lord/Zombie Lord Martial-Artist Monk that serves as flanker for a Graveknight Anti-Paladin wielding a Life-Drinker. Very much so a boss encounter, not till higher levels.

Remember when I said part of the reason the colonists aren't appreciated is because the natives have bad blood with another necropolis on the same continent? Well those guys are super bad. For every bit as awesome as the colonies are and such, the other necrocracy (term invention!?) is ruled by a powerful tyrant who is every bit as evil as the arch lich is benevolent. Probably more so. He lives buried away in an ancient tomb city surrounded by slaves and vast wilderness with some of the most frightening animals in the world. Every now and then for unknown reasons (he may just become bored) he moves outward and begins a scourge, and his people collect up the living to turn them into slaves. He would happily see all living replaced with the undead (but the arch lich is wiser, and realizes that undead need the living to exist on their most basic level).

This emperor of darkness has elite hit squads that he sends against his enemies. This group called the Black Circle is a group of ghasts, mummies, morgues, and vampires who work as shock teams and assassins, and they typically work in groups. One of my groups encountered a trio of them (1 ghast antipaladin + 2 ghast wizards) who were taking out a hit on one the PCs. They were bad news. They would tag-team you to hit you with a -13 to your next save and then cast baleful polymorph on you. The party drove them off and had to remove the spell; but it scared them. On one hand they were happy to be awesome enough to have is attention. On the other hand, they weren't sure they wanted it. :P


Thanks Set. Im a big fan of Necro/FGG.


Hmm, can a spell that creates an extradimensional space be cast inside an extradimensional space?

If so.... make a pit trap that has the victim fall 30 ft, once they hit the bottom it casts Create Pit. Once victim hits the bottom of the Create Pit spell, it casts Spiked Pit, then it casts by Acid Pit once it hits the bottom of Spiked Pit. That's a total 11d6 lethal 1d6 nonlethal falling damage with 2d6 piercing and 2d6 acid damage, assuming only a 7th level caster on the trap. Plus they'll be out of combat for a minimum of 8 rounds unless they have some sort of flight, or teleportation.

The benefit is the Rogue isn't going to be seeing the trap, unless he's in the pit, and it activates once you hit the bottom of the pit. If you can't cast an extradimensional spell inside an extradimensional spell, then simply putting a Create Pit spell at the bottom of a real pit (or other Pit spells) still works.

[Edit] Hmm, if we modify Acid Pit and make an equal level spell Fire Pit, you can tell the victim he just fell into hell.


Not sure if this has been mentioned before in this thread or not, but this necropolis/undead-labor concept reminds me of Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman's novel "Fire Sea" from the Death Gate Cycle. Anyone interested in how such a society might function (although the one depicted is impacted by some serious blowback due to the laws of magic in the setting and how they apply to necromancy specifically) should definitely check that book out.


For Book 4: Tactics for the Tactless... :P

In This Thread there was discussion as to how speed weapons worked, and as to how they would interact with natural weapons if you could apply them to an amulet of mighty fists and benefit all natural attacks. I commented that not only is there are strong precedent in the RAW that you actually do get one attack with each weapon (despite the FAQ), but that in core it's not unbalanced at all (but I wasn't sure about when combined with Summoners + Eidolons, as those guys can get pretty bad anyway).

Now the result was that a level 20 druid turned into a form that gives 8 natural attacks (giant octopus), who has specced Strength-prime (30 before size modifiers) and huge size (beast shape III, 36 Strength), and doubled all attacks to 16 tentacle attacks, still cannot outpace the damage of any martial character wielding only a +5 2 handed weapon and hasted (despite spending almost 3 times as much money).

So I was issued a challenge to try and break it within core by any means necessary, so after carefully contemplating it, I rebuild the druid as a druid 12/monk 2/barbarian 1/fighter 5, and used some non-core material (specifically the Gloves of Dueling to get effectively 12 fighter levels worth of Weapon Training). Using this build was a DPR that was quite high (about 300 DPR) fully buffed, though significantly lower against any enemy with DR x/-, cold iron, silver, or alignment based (essentially anything not DR/magic). Commenting on the build afterwards, I said that I didn't think you can break it in core. The druid lost 7th, 8th, and 9th level spellcasting, only had a 12 caster level (meaning her buffs were trivial to strip with a single greater dispel magic). In addition, she lost the ability to activate magic items (no potions, wands, staffs, x/day items, at-will items, intelligent items, nothing except static buffs), which gave her excessive mobility problems (she only has 5/day wild shape and no way to fly on her own without changing shape).

I estimated that even with her excessive DPR, she couldn't actually defeat a generic 20th level barbarian, ranger, or fighter with a 2 hander, even though they dealt less damage per round (I noted that they would just activate their cloaks and reduce all incoming DPR by 50% due to displacement, which would give them all the time they needed to kill her). She was also pathetic if she didn't begin her turn next to an enemy, because in her form she lacked pounce and had mobility problems, so she was both easy to kite and had trouble getting her full attack on, and that was before we consider that she takes a 15 x 15 square (making her both a big target and forcing squeezing penalties in indoor locations).

But, since it just look like an unremarkable build, whose only real shtick was "I can do lots of damage if I full attack in melee", I don't think it can be easily broken (now they are discussing if allowing speed to be applied to all natural attacks would be broken if used by NPCs -- though I'm still skeptical, but we'll see what turns up). In fact, I was pretty sure it couldn't kill my dazing-spell druid build in 1 vs 1 melee (that is blaster caster in melee vs dire octopus McLotsofattacks) But, it was suggested that I was being disingenuous with my application of cheese (as in, apparently I wasn't applying enough cheese); so I compared it to a tactic that is rules-legal in core with no questions. After I wrote it, I immediately thought of the "tactics for the tactless" joke, and felt like I should post it here. :P

A Wizard's Amulet of Mighty Fists wrote:

A +5 amulet of mighty fists costs 125,000 gp. With that same amount of money, I could -- as a wizard or sorcerer -- produce 50 10th level copies of myself. On these 10th level copies of myself, I have them prepare magic missile, acid arrow, invisibility, elemental acid arrow (electricity), elemental acid arrow (cold), greater invisibility, teleport, enervation, overland flight, and telekinesis.

My minions follow me about easily enough. When needed, they can simultaneously target enemies with spells that have a range of 200 ft or greater, denying any spell resistance that a creature has. If a creature does not have spell resistance, then they are in bigger trouble.

Using the pit fiend once again. My wizards all cast elemental acid arrow (electricity) at the pit fiend. The pit fiend has a touch AC of 9 flat footed (he cannot see them because they are invisible. They have a +5 to hit from BAB alone. Assuming they have no Dexterity bonus at all (which means I don't either), then they have an 85% chance to hit him. On this turn, they chuck no-save no-SR missiles 200 ft. towards him for an average damage of 212.5 damage, and he takes an additional 212.5 damage on round 2, another 212.5 on round 3, and another 212.5 damage on round 4.

If they are facing an enemy without spell resistance, they instead hit them with magic missile dealing 875 damage directly to them, no save, no dodging. Even if they are wearing a brooch of shielding it quickly breaks the brooch and deals 774 points of damage to the victim.

They can also sit around under greater invisibility and cast telekinesis and proceed to use combat maneuvers against an enemy every round on the round. Due to their low caster level, they are not particularly good at combat maneuvers, but there are 50 of them, and if a single one of them rolls a 20, then the combat maneuver succeeds; allowing them to easily strip enemies of their possessions, trip them, grapple them, bull rush them, and so forth.

That would be a relatively simple exercise in breaking stuff.

Warning: I do not encourage anyone at the table to do anything I mentioned here in this post. Failure to heed this warning may result in severe head trauma due to quickly accelerating copies of hardbound rulebooks.

I think I may post this in the DPR olympics. :3


Power Word Unzip wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned before in this thread or not, but this necropolis/undead-labor concept reminds me of Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman's novel "Fire Sea" from the Death Gate Cycle. Anyone interested in how such a society might function (although the one depicted is impacted by some serious blowback due to the laws of magic in the setting and how they apply to necromancy specifically) should definitely check that book out.

Thanks PWU, I'll see if I can check it out. :)


Tels wrote:
Hmm, can a spell that creates an extradimensional space be cast inside an extradimensional space?

Last I checked, yes. In old editions there were some strange rules concerning multiple extra-dimensional spaces, but they no longer exist. The only thing that remains of that sort of thing is the ol' portable hole + bag of holding effects. AKA - how to get rid of Godzilla (or your Tarrasque).

Quote:
If so.... make a pit trap that has the victim fall 30 ft, once they hit the bottom it casts Create Pit. Once victim hits the bottom of the Create Pit spell, it casts Spiked Pit, then it casts by Acid Pit once it hits the bottom of Spiked Pit. That's a total 11d6 lethal 1d6 nonlethal falling damage with 2d6 piercing and 2d6 acid damage, assuming only a 7th level caster on the trap. Plus they'll be out of combat for a minimum of 8 rounds unless they have some sort of flight, or teleportation.

This is rather amusing. It has an almost maliciously comical effect. Just when you think you've hit the bottom, the floor seems to fall out from under you yet again. That's kind of hilarious. Seems like several traps in one actually (so the grouping of them would be mid level traps that worked together to be a high level trap).

Quote:
The benefit is the Rogue isn't going to be seeing the trap, unless he's in the pit, and it activates once you hit the bottom of the pit. If you can't cast an extradimensional spell inside an extradimensional spell, then simply putting a Create Pit spell at the bottom of a real pit (or other Pit spells) still works.

Hmm, I might have to use this. Usually I'm pretty strait-forward with my pit traps (I tend to put things like spiders in them, oozes, etc), but this is just funny. :P

Quote:
[Edit] Hmm, if we modify Acid Pit and make an equal level spell Fire Pit, you can tell the victim he just fell into hell.

LOL, oh that would be priceless. :P


If you wanted to you could also get them all a Book of Harms for 45,000g and be an Evoker. You could Tactical Wizard Nuke someone for 1500 damage.


Aratrok wrote:
If you wanted to you could also get them all a Book of Harms for 45,000g and be an Evoker. You could Tactical Wizard Nuke someone for 1500 damage.

Yeah but I was trying to be simple about it. That would be really freakin' mean though. Good idea. :P

I don't pull stuff like that on my PCs though. At least, not that bad. I've had encounters where they had to deal with magic missile spam, or adepts with wands of lightning bolt, but never to the extreme as noted above.

The really sick thing is that's 125,000 gp. You'd still have 755,000 gp left to spend on gear. You could triple the number of mage minions and still have enough money to cover your bases with. :P


Speaking of simulacrum, I have a cute idea that you guys might want to use. Ever want some recurring villains in your games? Want those villains to level up with the party, and encounter the party, but you need those villains to be super bad guys for them to have the power to be the bad guys they're supposed to be? Well my fellow GMs, simulacrum is your friend.

I ran a game not long ago where the party encountered some simulacrums of the main bad guys. Initially it was a simulacrum of the bad guy's top assassin. Later it was a simulacrum of the bad guy himself. Now these simulacrums are 1/2 the level of the original. If the party destroys the simulacrum, the original is still around.

Using simulacrums and dominate person, you can make it so that you can see through your simulacrum's eyes and even direct them like puppets. They willingly submit to any commands naturally. This can allow the big bad to use his proxies as spies, diplomats, and so forth, while witnessing the flow of events himself.

The big bads of the first adventure arch were just the 1/2 level copies of the real big bads far, far, faaar away from the city that the PCs were in.


Ashiel wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
If you wanted to you could also get them all a Book of Harms for 45,000g and be an Evoker. You could Tactical Wizard Nuke someone for 1500 damage.

Yeah but I was trying to be simple about it. That would be really freakin' mean though. Good idea. :P

I don't pull stuff like that on my PCs though. At least, not that bad. I've had encounters where they had to deal with magic missile spam, or adepts with wands of lightning bolt, but never to the extreme as noted above.

The really sick thing is that's 125,000 gp. You'd still have 755,000 gp left to spend on gear. You could triple the number of mage minions and still have enough money to cover your bases with. :P

With 150 magelings, who actually needs bases to cover? You'd be hard-pressed to defeat such an enemy since he's got an army of himself.

I mean, if you wanted to do something hilarious, have all of them run screaming forward in melee. It'd look a little like this.

[Edit] Hmm interesting unique monster idea. An at-will Simulacrum spell like ability. Except you can only use it to turn a recently slain creature into a simulacrum of the caster, but based off the slain creature's hit-die. We'll name him Smith, and see if anyone gets the reference.


Grimmy wrote:
Pretty cool idea! I might allow clerics of Ashiel in my campaign setting if this got done. Wraithstrike name would sound a lot different then the other deities in my pantheon, so I'd have to think about it, just because of the sound of the name.

You can use "Obo the all seeing". :)

PS:I just noticed I have another many-eyed avatar.


Tels wrote:

You might want to read up on your Golarion Lore a little more. Geb is a nation that where the undead 'live' and mindless undead work the fields there.

Which book is that in? It sounds like a good place for an adventure, similar to Karrnath in Eberron.


I'm fairly certain it's in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Book. I remember reading up on Geb and thinking, "God, I hope they disinfect the produce first!" when it mentioned crops were a major export for Geb.


Tels wrote:
I'm fairly certain it's in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Book. I remember reading up on Geb and thinking, "God, I hope they disinfect the produce first!" when it mentioned crops were a major export for Geb.

For the love of god don't put the bloody skeletons on farm duty!


Tels wrote:
I'm fairly certain it's in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Book. I remember reading up on Geb and thinking, "God, I hope they disinfect the produce first!" when it mentioned crops were a major export for Geb.

Thanks. I will have to check it when I get back home tonight.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ashiel wrote:
Quote:
[Edit] Hmm, if we modify Acid Pit and make an equal level spell Fire Pit, you can tell the victim he just fell into hell.
LOL, oh that would be priceless. :P

Bonus points if you flavor it to be more fun.

You give chase to the Kobold Wizard fleeing down the tunnels of his home. Recklessly, you charge forward, when the ground gives way beneath your feat (it was weight sensitive)). You try to grab onto the ledge of the hole, but just as you've secured your grip, the edge crumbles and you tumble into the blackness.

You fall for some distance, and with a thud, you slam onto the ground. You feel bruised and injured, but nothing serious. As you get ready to stand again, the ground crumbles away once more, pitching you into the darkness once more. The fall is longer this time; you can barely make out the edge of the pit your originally slipped on. Suddenly, your strike the ground once again, this time hurting more than the previous fall. Before you can do more than moan and roll over, you hear cracking and the ground crumbles before you have a chance to find a perch.

Your tumble through the darkness this time is accompanied by flashes of what appear to be jutting spikes and slashing rocks. You get a sense that you've fallen a very far distance at this point, when you slam into the ground again, this time the jagged rocks have caused pierced your body. You cough a little and get a coppery taste in your mouth. You pray the failing has ended, but you suspect it hasn't.

And you'd be right.

Once again, you fall into the deep, this time, you feel the worst as happened. As you're falling, you can suddenly see again, but everything is burning. Flames cover every surface, and as you land this time, you're not sure if you'll be getting up. You lie there, in a pit of burning darkness, and you wonder to yourself...

..Am I in Hell?


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Hmm, been thinking a little. What's the most powerful Undead controller we can make?

The best I can think of is a Undead Lord Cleric 7/Necromancer Wizard 3/Mysti Theurge 8/ Graveknight (+2 CR). It has an Orange Prism Ioun Stone (+1 CL) and the Undead Master feat. So the effective CL for the purpose of Animate Dead and Command Undead is 20(Cleric)/16 (Wizard).

One variable question is whether or not the Mystic Theurge levels count for the Corpse Companion Supernatural ability of the Undead Lord Cleric Archetype. If it does, then the effect Cleric level is 16, but if not, then it's 8. Another question would be if the Undead Lord Template counts as 'variant' for the purpose of the Corpse Companion ability. If it does, and if the Mystic Theurge levels stack for the Corpse Companion, then the Corpse Companion would be an 8th level Undead Lord Skeleton that controls 8 HD of undead itself.

So lets do a little math.
Cleric Command Undead allows for 40 HD of Undead to be controlled.
Wizard Command Undead allows for 32 HD of Undead to be controlled.
Cleric Animate Dead allows for 80 HD of Undead to be controlled.
Wizard Animate Dead allows for 64 HD of Undead to be controlled.
Graveknight allows for 5 HD of Undead to be controlled per HD of the Graveknight, and the Graveknight in this case is 18 HD so it can control 90 HD of Undead.
If the Corpse Companion stacks, there is further 8 HD controlled Plus the 8 HD Corpse Companion itself.

In total, the Undead Controller can control 314 HD of Undead if the levels stack for Corpse Companion, or 306 HD of Undead if they don't.

That's a lot of Undead.

If anyone can go over this and verify all this, it'd be appreciated.

[Edit] Might be fun to run a scenario like this so the players can feel like unstoppable machines of destruction as they wade through the legion of undead to get to the controller maniacally laughing on his throne, as he shoots spells and bolsters his forces, summoning the legions of Hell and the Abyss to support his minions.

Also, binding Ghaele's to fight the party.. just saying

[Edit] Toss in a few Cleric/Adepts to channel negative energy to heal the undead, just to be a dick.

[Edit] True story about many templates, they don't change HD. So a Burning Bloody Skeletal Champion can be 1 HD and CR 2.


wraithstrike wrote:
Grimmy wrote:
Pretty cool idea! I might allow clerics of Ashiel in my campaign setting if this got done. Wraithstrike name would sound a lot different then the other deities in my pantheon, so I'd have to think about it, just because of the sound of the name.

You can use "Obo the all seeing". :)

PS:I just noticed I have another many-eyed avatar.

That would fit right in.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Dang, I remember promising to include something based off of Ashiel's writings in my homebrew setting but don't remember what. Looks like I have to go archive digging.

Edit: That was easy. Witch-King Ashiel.


Who's to say Witch-King Ashiel isn't the true origin of the Divine Being Ashiel? Sure, he wasn't a Witch-King, but Aroden was a powerful Wizard before his ascendance.

Osirion

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Tels wrote:
I'm fairly certain it's in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Book. I remember reading up on Geb and thinking, "God, I hope they disinfect the produce first!" when it mentioned crops were a major export for Geb.

And yet, negative energy is *supposed* to be all antithetical to life and ****, so skeletons and zombies *should* be sterile and clean as can be, with no fungus or mildew or bacteria able to take root in their negative-energy-charged flesh (or bone).

*If* the fluff about negative energy being 'anti-life' is even a little bit true, mechanically (which, it ain't, thanks to 3.0's disease-ridden ghouls and contagion spell), then skeleton picked produce would be *safer* to eat than produce picked by nasty humans with their germ-covered hands.

On the other hand, if negative energy was *really,* really antithetical to life, then a farm staffed by undead would be recognizable by all the cows spontaneously aborting and all the milk curdling and all the crops wilting and dying before they produce anything anyway...

Ah, negative energy. It hates life. It *creates life.* It's a blight on the land and inherently unnatural and ickywrongbad, and it's a darn handy time-saver when you want to maximize crop production, 'cause skeletons work all day and night and never need to be fed!

Osirion

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Tels wrote:
[Edit] Might be fun to run a scenario like this so the players can feel like unstoppable machines of destruction as they wade through the legion of undead to get to the controller maniacally laughing on his throne, as he shoots spells and bolsters his forces, summoning the legions of Hell and the Abyss to support his minions.

Animate Dead's not a long cast, so the undead meister could also keep dozens of corpses handy, armored and armed (weapons welded into their spiked gauntlets, so they don't need to waste an action readying their weapons), in his laboratory. As 'command slots' free up from all the undead being killed by the adventurers, he waves his hand and a new group stands to attention and moves forward.

(I used a similar notion in my Hollowfaust game. The evil necromancer had created a salve that functioned as animate dead, and, inspired by the old Death Master class, the salve remained on the bones, but didn't animate them until a command word was spoken. As the party killed her skeletal guards, she spoke a command word as she retreated from them, causing a fresh batch of pre-prepared skeletons to arise. She didn't have the 'control rating' necessary to have them all out at once, but since the party was so obligingly killing off the first wave...)


Well the Undead Controller I mentioned above is a Graveknight, and therefore, Undead itself. So it doesn't actually need to control all the Undead around it. Just put the ones he doesn't control near the front, and let them attack the Party by themselves.


Tels wrote:

Hmm, been thinking a little. What's the most powerful Undead controller we can make?

The best I can think of is a Undead Lord Cleric 7/Necromancer Wizard 3/Mysti Theurge 8/ Graveknight (+2 CR). It has an Orange Prism Ioun Stone (+1 CL) and the Undead Master feat. So the effective CL for the purpose of Animate Dead and Command Undead is 20(Cleric)/16 (Wizard)

I'd seriously consider dropping a level of Juju Oracle into that, because it also gets animate dead as a spell and can activate it via wands, scrolls, or other items produced by your other caster levels, and benefits from any effect that gives +X caster level or +X caster level with Y spell (if you had a trait that gives +2 caster level with animate dead then it applies to the cleric, necromancer, and oracle level, then +1 from ioun stone). The oracle dip is solely for Spirit Vessels that maximizes the HP of all your undead (which is freakin' awesome).

Quote:
One variable question is whether or not the Mystic Theurge levels count for the Corpse Companion Supernatural ability of the Undead Lord Cleric Archetype. If it does, then the effect Cleric level is 16, but if not, then it's 8. Another question would be if the Undead Lord Template counts as 'variant' for the purpose of the Corpse Companion ability. If it does, and if the Mystic Theurge levels stack for the Corpse Companion, then the Corpse Companion would be an 8th level Undead Lord Skeleton that controls 8 HD of undead itself.

Unfortunately for the cleric, neither the theurge levels nor Undead Lord template are compatible with the ability. (^.^)"

Quote:

So lets do a little math.

Cleric Command Undead allows for 40 HD of Undead to be controlled.
Wizard Command Undead allows for 32 HD of Undead to be controlled.
Cleric Animate Dead allows for 80 HD of Undead to be controlled.
Wizard Animate Dead allows for 64 HD of Undead to be controlled.
Graveknight allows for 5 HD of Undead to be controlled per HD of the Graveknight, and the Graveknight in this case is 18 HD so it can control 90 HD of Undead.
If the Corpse Companion stacks, there is further 8 HD controlled Plus the 8 HD Corpse Companion itself.

In total, the Undead Controller can control 314 HD of Undead if the levels stack for Corpse Companion, or 306 HD of Undead if they don't.

That's a lot of Undead.

If you toss that 1 level of Oracle into it, along with the appropriate caster level boosts and you could swing 16 HD of undead controlled from that 1 level alone, but it would reduce the undead elsewhere slightly. Haven't done the math but I'm pretty sure it's a net gain of a few HD. :)

Quote:
[Edit] Might be fun to run a scenario like this so the players can feel like unstoppable machines of destruction as they wade through the legion of undead to get to the controller maniacally laughing on his throne, as he shoots spells and bolsters his forces, summoning the legions of Hell and the Abyss to support his minions.

A fun tactic that is popular among arcane necromancers is frost-bombing (and the tactic was even sexier with access to uttercold metamagic from Complete Arcane). Essentially you just bomb your enemies with cold-damage spells while they deal with your skeletal minions. Skeletons are immune to cold, so you won't hurt your minions. Lord of the Uttercold was a metamagic feat that allowed you to turn 1/2 of a cold damage spell into negative energy, which meant that you could frost-bomb enemies while healing your undead for 1/2 the total damage.

Now, elemental spell can allow you to do this in reverse. Take a spell that deals negative energy damage and make 1/2 of it cold damage, but we run into the issue of having very few negative-energy AoE spells, plus if you can just bomb enemies with negative energy, why bother increasing the spell level to make it heal less to your minions and be more resistible? Not too good there.

Speaking of AoE negative energy spells, if your group likes converting D20 compatible spells, they had some cool negative energy spells in Neverwinter Nights. One was negative energy ray which was a 1st level short-range spell that dealt 1d6/2 caster levels negative energy damage (Will half) vs 1 target. Its big brother was negative energy burst that dealt 1d8+caster level negative energy damage in a 20 ft. radius and forced a Fortitude save vs suffering a strength penalty that rose with your level (I think it was -1 Str per 4 caster levels).

Quote:
Also, binding Ghaele's to fight the party.. just saying

*falls over cackling*

Quote:
[Edit] Toss in a few Cleric/Adepts to channel negative energy to heal the undead, just to be a dick.

If you take advantage of PF's "backwards compatibility", you can preform some super dickery with a feat from Libris Mortis. "Destruction Retribution" I believe is the name of the feat, and it makes it so that the undead you create explode when destroyed. Everything within 10 ft. of the undead creature must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha modifier of the undead, if I recall correctly) or take 1d6 negative energy damage per 2 HD of the undead (minimum 1d6). It specifically heals undead caught in the area as well. So if you were fighting a group of 8 HD zombies, every time one of them pops everything near them takes 4d6 negative energy and the remaining zombies in the AoE heal 4d6 damage.

Quote:
[Edit] True story about many templates, they don't change HD. So a Burning Bloody Skeletal Champion can be 1 HD and CR 2.

Keep in mind that in the case of special skeletons, they count as x2 HD when you go to raise them (but not control them, IIRC). So if you wanted to animate a bloody burning skeleton with 8 HD, you would need to be able to animate 24 HD worth of undead to create it, but then it immediately counts as 8 HD from that point on. Weird, I know. :\


Set wrote:
Tels wrote:
I'm fairly certain it's in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Book. I remember reading up on Geb and thinking, "God, I hope they disinfect the produce first!" when it mentioned crops were a major export for Geb.

And yet, negative energy is *supposed* to be all antithetical to life and ****, so skeletons and zombies *should* be sterile and clean as can be, with no fungus or mildew or bacteria able to take root in their negative-energy-charged flesh (or bone).

*If* the fluff about negative energy being 'anti-life' is even a little bit true, mechanically (which, it ain't, thanks to 3.0's disease-ridden ghouls and contagion spell), then skeleton picked produce would be *safer* to eat than produce picked by nasty humans with their germ-covered hands.

On the other hand, if negative energy was *really,* really antithetical to life, then a farm staffed by undead would be recognizable by all the cows spontaneously aborting and all the milk curdling and all the crops wilting and dying before they produce anything anyway...

Ah, negative energy. It hates life. It *creates life.* It's a blight on the land and inherently unnatural and ickywrongbad, and it's a darn handy time-saver when you want to maximize crop production, 'cause skeletons work all day and night and never need to be fed!

Personally the way I've always seen it, based on observation, is negative energy seems related to life energy in the way antimatter is related to matter. They're not compatible, but serve much the same function in theory. It's like 2 sides of the same coin, or a scale. You have certain creatures (undead) that are powered by negative energy, and certain creatures (living) that are powered by positive energy, and then you have dead (not powered at all). Applying the opposite energy pushes you closer to that middle "dead" state, while applying the correct energy makes them healthier.

I think much the same way that humans don't immediately heal everything they touch, most undead don't immediately kill it either. I don't think zombies really rot, because rotting implies decay and deterioration, which they clearly do not do (zombies can last thousands of years in a wet and moldy tomb without rotting). However, I do think they could probably mold. A zombie's body seems clearly sustained by negative energy and presumably cannot harbor disease (immunity implies that bacteria and parasites cannot live in them effectively), but there would be nothing stopping molds from growing on the surface of a zombie. In fact, a really scary encounter would be with zombies covered in brown mold (the CR 2 mold found in the environment section that deals 3d6 nonlethal cold damage in a 5ft. radius with no save) after the zombie had been inactive enough for it to get mold spores growing on the moisture and dust in an old dungeon.

I don't think negative energy hates life. It's just more like anti-life. We don't assume that fire hates water, only that it cannot exist in contact with it. Of course, this makes certain undead with a very powerful connection to or production of negative energy energy (such as wights or vampires) very dangerous to living creatures because they are full of this anti-life energy, but they seem to have the ability to control it. Vampires and wights do not drain levels merely by touching people, only when they make an aggressive attack.

If you have a creature that can release ample amounts of positive energy (such as a cleric holding a cure serious wounds spell), it has a similarly destructive effect on undead. It's just two opposed energies that could be used for similar purposes.

I can't say much for contagion and remove disease though. The only possible explanations I have for those is that perhaps the contagion spell temporarily crushes a living body's immune system and then applies a magically produced bacterium that rapidly takes over, or that remove disease fills the recipient with so much life energy that their body's immune system kicks into overdrive and fights off most anything. But both of those are pretty bizarre from a scientific standpoint. >.>


I'm a BBEG, I don't think I'd mind taking time to abuse the mechanics of Animate Dead for my benefit. Sure, it costs more, but that 1 HD Skeleton is going to set everything around it on fire, and be damned hard to kill with fast healing.

The PCs could run in, see this burning skeleton charging at them, cut it down, and 1 hour later, it rises again, and so to do all the others. Unless someone happens to cast Bless just as the enter the room, or Hallow. I'm fairly certain they won't have some 300 vials of Holy Water either. :P


Tels wrote:

I'm a BBEG, I don't think I'd mind taking time to abuse the mechanics of Animate Dead for my benefit. Sure, it costs more, but that 1 HD Skeleton is going to set everything around it on fire, and be damned hard to kill with fast healing.

The PCs could run in, see this burning skeleton charging at them, cut it down, and 1 hour later, it rises again, and so to do all the others. Unless someone happens to cast Bless just as the enter the room, or Hallow. I'm fairly certain they won't have some 300 vials of Holy Water either. :P

Channel Energy (positive) never looked as good. XD


Ashiel wrote:
Tels wrote:

I'm a BBEG, I don't think I'd mind taking time to abuse the mechanics of Animate Dead for my benefit. Sure, it costs more, but that 1 HD Skeleton is going to set everything around it on fire, and be damned hard to kill with fast healing.

The PCs could run in, see this burning skeleton charging at them, cut it down, and 1 hour later, it rises again, and so to do all the others. Unless someone happens to cast Bless just as the enter the room, or Hallow. I'm fairly certain they won't have some 300 vials of Holy Water either. :P

Channel Energy (positive) never looked as good. XD

This is true, but you only have so many of those. While I have soooooo maaaaaany of mine :P


Tels wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Tels wrote:

I'm a BBEG, I don't think I'd mind taking time to abuse the mechanics of Animate Dead for my benefit. Sure, it costs more, but that 1 HD Skeleton is going to set everything around it on fire, and be damned hard to kill with fast healing.

The PCs could run in, see this burning skeleton charging at them, cut it down, and 1 hour later, it rises again, and so to do all the others. Unless someone happens to cast Bless just as the enter the room, or Hallow. I'm fairly certain they won't have some 300 vials of Holy Water either. :P

Channel Energy (positive) never looked as good. XD
This is true, but you only have so many of those. While I have soooooo maaaaaany of mine :P

So true. While speaking of maniacal bad guys, I just posted some warlock samples in the D20 WoW thread.

Andoran

Can I just say that I think it very fitting that this thread is full of random derailing tangents into theory craft.

It kind of makes me want to create a "Nominate Ravingdork for Rules Consultant Thread."

I can see it now. Volume 15 of 30 of the core rules comes out, each tomb over 500 pages...


Unfortunately, I'm not a very big fan of WoW or MMOs to tell you the truth. Call me Elitist, but I don't like it when people refer to themselves as a Role-Player because they play WoW or SW:TOR or other such games.

Also, I've had so many friends that I used to play games with, just disappear because they were too busy raiding, or they had a clan meeting, or wanted to get their Paladin to 80 or something. I have a friend that played D&D for 30 years, suddenly drop off the face of the earth to play DDO, and that was sad. He was easily the best role-player out of all of us (different accents and personalities for every character). But, haven't seen him roll a die in some 3 years now.


ciretose wrote:
I can see it now. Volume 15 of 30 of the core rules comes out, each tomb over 500 pages...

So like D&D...I'm pretty sure I've got thousands of pages of D&D material on my shelf right now, and that's not even all my books. The biggest difference is if Ravingdork and I were consulting on stuff, we'd stress test the product first; which means instead of tomes and tomes of material that needs to constantly be scrutinized and constantly patched by players to make it work well, you'd have a lot more stuff that would be playable as written without confusion and arguments.

How terrible that would be... *tongue in cheek*

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