Ok,
This happened in my friday game. The Oracle started casting Black Tentacles to defeat the big bads while they ran away. Now, I try not to step on anything the players do, but in this case, the spell seems extremely powerful for a 4th level spell. I did some search fu on the forums, and it seems this comes up routinely, so I'm not the only one that feels that way.
A 9th level oracle casting it had a 25 CMB on an average roll, and the spell had a 35 CMD for breaking free. If it successfully grappled, it had a 30 CMB on an average roll, and a 40 CMD to break free.
That seems insanely powerful, since once you're grappled, you basically can't get free short of teleporting (and making a concentration check with an insanely high CMD check to get the spell off).
The players started looking at their character sheets, and the only person in the group who could possibly get free of it on an average roll was the Monk (who had a CMD of 29). The barbarian fighter only had a CMD of 22, and everyone else was much lower. And the Monk, once grappled, would need a 15 or higher on his escape artist roll the first round, and 20 on subsequent rounds to beat the CMD to get free. Basically, it was an unstopable spell for the party if I used it on them. On top of that, they'd be taking 1d6+4 damage per round, which at level 9 turns out to be 9d6+36. On average, that would be 68 points of damage. Only the party barbarian could survive that, everyone else would be dead (not negative, dead). And that doesn't even count enemies popping off shots at them with bows, even mooks could hit them while they're grappled.
So, they're of the opinion now that we should ban the spell from the game (since it's understood anything the PCs do, I can do, and vice versa). This makes me want to find out from the community how do people deal with this spell normally? I've seen references to freedom of movement spells, but it seems to me that any spell that can only be countered by freedom of movement or dispel magic is pretty powerful. What other ways are there of countering this? Or is it pretty much a one stop win? Flight isn't really a real answer, since that's only an option in a wide open environment. Most encounters take place in cities or tight confines like dungeons.
Besides this, I have never used the spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ok,
This happened in my friday game. The Oracle started casting Black Tentacles to defeat the big bads while they ran away. Now, I try not to step on anything the players do, but in this case, the spell seems extremely powerful for a 4th level spell. I did some search fu on the forums, and it seems this comes up routinely, so I'm not the only one that feels that way.A 9th level oracle casting it had a 25 CMB on an average roll, and the spell had a 35 CMD for breaking free. If it successfully grappled, it had a 30 CMB on an average roll, and a 40 CMD to break free.
Well couple things, CMB = caster level + 4 + 1 = +14 CMB
Black tentacles check each round to maintain grapple is 14+5 = +19 so it can still fail to hold even that character with a 22CMD, the spell MUST make this check each round to maintain the grapple
Flying creatures are uneffected by this spell
Grappled is not helpless, you can still fight
The CMD of black tentacles, for the purposes of escaping the grapple, is equal to 10 + its CMB. which is only 24 not 40
finally a level 1 grease spell gives characters a +10 on thier CMB or escape artist to escape grapple
So I think your problems have arisen from a little miscalculation in the spells CMB and CMD.
|
Black Tentacles
School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (octopus or squid tentacle)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: none; Spell Resistance: no
This spell causes a field of rubbery black tentacles to appear, burrowing up from the floor and reaching for any creature in the area.
Every creature within the area of the spell is the target of a combat maneuver check made to grapple each round at the beginning of your turn, including the round that black tentacles is cast. Creatures that enter the area of effect are also automatically attacked. The tentacles do not provoke attacks of opportunity. When determining the tentacles' CMB, the tentacles use your caster level as their base attack bonus and receive a +4 bonus due to their Strength and a +1 size bonus. Roll only once for the entire spell effect each round and apply the result to all creatures in the area of effect.
If the tentacles succeed in grappling a foe, that foe takes 1d6+4 points of damage and gains the grappled condition. Grappled opponents cannot move without first breaking the grapple. All other movement is prohibited unless the creature breaks the grapple first. The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling, but cannot move foes or pin foes. Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage. The CMD of black tentacles, for the purposes of escaping the grapple, is equal to 10 + its CMB.
The tentacles created by this spell cannot be damaged, but they can be dispelled as normal. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the tentacles last.
There is the text of it....So I have heard from higher level players that this spell sucks, but My conjurer was trapped in it once and almost died. I would reference this spell next to the stats for some level equivalent foes the party might face, say in the cr 6-11 range and get an idea of how they would fare against it.
Also, I dont think its all that bad. Breaking out of this requires beating a cmd of....24 (?) in the case of your oracle. A 7th level fighter should have like a cmb around +10 or +11; thats a cr6 versus your party and he is getting loose on a roll of 14, if my numbers are right.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Black tentacles is a great spell, but it sounds like your group is misreading it somehow. Phasics math seems more in line with what I've seen.
If you are a spellcaster, you should have some way of getting out of grappling by that level, a supernatural ability, a wand (yeah wands don't require ridiculous concentration checks), freedom of movement... etc.
Black tentacles is a great spell, but it sounds like your group is misreading it somehow. Phasics math seems more in line with what I've seen.
If you are a spellcaster, you should have some way of getting out of grappling by that level, a supernatural ability, a wand (yeah wands don't require ridiculous concentration checks), freedom of movement... etc.
indeed if I'm playing a caster at that level chances are I'm flying and out of reach of nasty spells like that, no to mention out of reach of those brutes trying to grapple my poor caster ;)
|
Also remember that it is a single attack roll against all possible targets, not a roll per target. Get a 1? Auto-fail, just difficult terrain.
Get a 20? Sweet.
It is fairly swingy, just like most save-or-suck spells.
And there are plenty of ways to get out of it.
Monks and Lore Warden Fighters are going to be virtually immune to it. Clerics with the Liberation Domain, etc.
|
|
It is a very good spell, but far from broken. As indicated...there are 1st level spells that can easily defeat it, and anyone outside of the grapple (or in, if they have good concentration checks) can just dispel the dang thing...
Flight also makes you immune to it. By level 9, a goodly number of enemies should have access to spells or abilities that allow them to fly, and therefore cheat the system.
How did you get a CMD of 40? At most, unless you're using metamagic, it should only be 29...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think I see what the problem was.
When we read '+10 CMB for CMD' we were taking that as '10 + what was rolled on the CMB check', not 'Base CMB + 10'. So on an average roll the Oracle was getting 25 for his CMB check, and then +10 was making it 35.
So, the CMD is fixed, no matter what the guy rolls. So, in our case, he had a +14, and his CMD should have been 24, not 34. Ok, all of us misread that then. Not as bad as I thought it was, most of the party had a 50/50 chance of breaking the grapple.
I'm not sure why people think Black Tentacles doesn't work vs. Flyers.
The spell doesn't say anything like that, Grapple can be done vs. Flyers,
there's no reason Difficult Terrain rules can't be applied in 3-d space,
and the standard rules for Area spells state that burst/spread radius' default to spheres = affecting a 3d space (the term radius by itself should extend to all physical dimensions by default, if not explicitly limited to 2 dimensions - so same thing for cones, etc)
For trapped characters who have poor CMBs, a good tactic may be using Full Defense to boost their CMD vs. the Black Tentacles Maintain.
I'm going to have to say it is pretty nasty. Almost killed several members (ruled that when you went down past 0, it would stop damaging you.) and it was a pain in the butt to escape. You pretty much have to prepare to counter this spell, or your screwed. Also on that topic, yes mages can escape it, but fighters? Ours had a difficult time trying to escape.
Fighters (/Barbarians/etc) should have the best CMBs/CMDs...
if they happen to get caught the 1st round, they aren't likely to be permanently stuck there.
Paladin's Smite CHA to AC bonus should apply to CMD as well. (if not the Attack Bonus to Escape checks)
As mentioned, you are still free to attack normally (well, with penalty)
against anybody you threaten (or can throw weapons at) while Grappled, 1-Handed weapons only.
It's definitely a good spell, and many consider it a 'staple' for that reason, but I don't think it's overly problematic.
Fighters (/Barbarians/etc) should have the best CMBs/CMDs...
if they happen to get caught the 1st round, they aren't likely to be permanently stuck there.
Paladin's Smite CHA to AC bonus should apply to CMD as well. (if not the Attack Bonus to Escape checks)As mentioned, you are still free to attack normally (well, with penalty)
against anybody you threaten (or can throw weapons at) while Grappled, 1-Handed weapons only.
It's definitely a good spell, and many consider it a 'staple' for that reason, but I don't think it's overly problematic.
Pally's Boost to CMD from smite only works if the caster is evil though.
Even so, that's assuming the tentacle itself is evil (depends on caster I guess)
Also, Deflection bonuses add to CMD, iirc
I would consider Casting Black Tentacles to be an attack from the Caster for the purposes of breaking Invisibility, therefore I would also allow it to count as an attack from the Caster for purpose of Smite's AC bonus. Obviously only works vs. Evil.
But definitely, Deflection bonuses, all the other bonuses to AC/CMD you may have, along with BAB, STR, DEX, etc, should make it so half-well built Full BAB types shouldn't be mortally fearful of Black Tentacles. For weak Squishies, it is rather a pain, but since they otherwise claim to own the game :-), I think they will manage. Most 3/4 BAB classes (and some 1/2BAB builds) shouldn't be permanently stuck in it by any means, and may well not be affected the very first round.
Note: Check the profile for my alt Hyundai Head-Smasher, the mo-fo was playing in a 4 vs. 4 arena game, *2* enemy casters won Init, casting Black Tentacles AND Stinking Cloud, reaming his entire team (only Hyundai was untouched), 2 team-mates escaped the next round, another was caught in the Black Tentacles for about 8 rounds total, yet Hyundai managed to take down the entire opposing team (along with the late escaper, a Fire Oracle... the other 2 dudes who eventually got out after a round or 2, a Bard and Summoner I believe, got reamed by round 4)
I had an NPC BBEG cast it a while back, and because its caster level was a couple above the party level, when the flying warlock got grappled, she was pretty much screwed. Fortunately, she had that dispel magic ability, so she was eventually able to dispel it, but she needed a 19 or 20 to escape the grapple, and a 15+ to dispel it, I think.
A little bit of bad encounter design on my part, but it was an encounter of the appropriate CR. Mayne CR +1, +2 at the most. A dark naga with 2 or 3 sorcerer levels, I think. The PCs were 7th or 8th level, I think.
her chances of casting while grappled may have been better than trying to escape first, especially if she had combat casting. or not... fortunately, many caster classes now have (Su) abilities that don't require Concentration checks to pull of while Grappled, so those are also options.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I'm not sure why people think Black Tentacles doesn't work vs. Flyers.
The spell doesn't say anything like that, Grapple can be done vs. Flyers,
there's no reason Difficult Terrain rules can't be applied in 3-d space,
and the standard rules for Area spells state that burst/spread radius' default to spheres = affecting a 3d space (the term radius by itself should extend to all physical dimensions by default, if not explicitly limited to 2 dimensions - so same thing for cones, etc)For trapped characters who have poor CMBs, a good tactic may be using Full Defense to boost their CMD vs. the Black Tentacles Maintain.
SInce it's a little vague about height, we've always read the spell as being 20' radius vertical as well which means it's nasty against fliers also. We also use 'difficult terrain' in the air when it's appropriate.
|
|
I think I see what the problem was.
When we read '+10 CMB for CMD' we were taking that as '10 + what was rolled on the CMB check', not 'Base CMB + 10'. So on an average roll the Oracle was getting 25 for his CMB check, and then +10 was making it 35.
So, the CMD is fixed, no matter what the guy rolls. So, in our case, he had a +14, and his CMD should have been 24, not 34. Ok, all of us misread that then. Not as bad as I thought it was, most of the party had a 50/50 chance of breaking the grapple.
Huh?
School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (octopus or squid tentacle)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: none; Spell Resistance: noThis spell causes a field of rubbery black tentacles to appear, burrowing up from the floor and reaching for any creature in the area.
Every creature within the area of the spell is the target of a combat
maneuver check made to grapple each round at the beginning of your
turn, including the round that black tentacles is cast. Creatures that
enter the area of effect are also automatically attacked. The tentacles
do not provoke attacks of opportunity. When determining the
tentacles’ CMB, the tentacles use your caster level as their base attack
bonus and receive a +4 bonus due to their Strength and a +1 size
bonus. Roll only once for the entire spell effect each round and apply
the result to all creatures in the area of effect.If the tentacles succeed in grappling a foe, that foe takes 1d6+4
points of damage and gains the grappled condition. Grappled
opponents cannot move without first breaking the grapple. All
other movement is prohibited unless the creature breaks the
grapple first. The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on
grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling,
but cannot move foes or pin foes. Each round that black tentacles
succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of
damage. The CMD of black tentacles, for the purposes of escaping
the grapple, is equal to 10 + its CMB.The tentacles created by this spell cannot be damaged, but they
can be dispelled as normal. The entire area of effect is considered
difficult terrain while the tentacles last.
So, 9th level Oracle =
CMB = 9+4+1 = 14CMD = CMB + 10 = 14 + 10 = 24
Grapple check = 14 + 1d20, one roll per turn, applied against all targets in the area of effect.
In this case it goes from 15 to 34, but the 15 is an automatic miss (rolling a 1 on an attack roll), and the 34 would be an automatic hit (20 on an attack roll)
Average, however would be 24-25 on that first attack. Good chance to get a significant portion of the party, but a 24 is not that bad, since it is also going to be a 24 total to break free.
I have seen someone trapped in a Black Tentacles for several rounds, but he was also ridiculously multi-classed, especially with the first levels of non-full BAB classes. And balanced stats, so his Escape Artist was probably around +10, if he had it trained, and his CMB would be slightly lower. It was his underpowered mount that was really suffering, since it wasn't up to his hit dice, either, so its low rolls left it trapped, as well.
We spent almost as much effort on keeping him and his mount alive as we did looking for the invisible caster. Caster used Black Tentacles on the party during the first round, and while we were getting out of the tentacles, or most of us were, he cast Invisibility and moved from his initial position.
Both spells were more irritating than dangerous, at least for 4 out of 5 of us, as we had to hunt the spellcaster down, while trying to keep the Taldane alive...
It's also good to keep in mind that a fair many of these go-to, amazing spells are also fairly limited. Like Sleep. The best spell evar. Unless the target has more than 4 hit die. Or has a great will save. Or is an elf. Or is a zombie. Or is any of a thousand things that have immunity.
In the case of Black Tentacles, it's a very good spell. For certain types of enemies. Specifically, clusters of weaker, landlocked enemies that aren't particularly big or strong and don't have any of a list of countermeasures (teleportation, freedom of movement, etc). If you're fighting a group of orcs, it's spectacular; you cripple them all in one shot. If you're fighting a T-Rex or two? Eh, not so much.
I love the spell and rarely run a sorcerer without it, but when I take it, I always notice the broad range of circumstances where it's just not useful. But the times when it is are handy enough.
Augment and superior summoning affect summoning spells. That is conjuration (summoning). Black tentacles is a conjuration (creation) spell, so it is not affected.