Monk Tactics


Advice

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As always, the Monk is a hot topic button on these forums. I'm not going to be making another thread lamenting the Monk, or anything of the sort. Instead, I'd like to call out the Monk players. Several times I've seen people mention Monks that work for them, I'd like to see them post their tactics they use in game, to be successful.

If necessary, you can post your build as well, but put them in a spoiler so as to avoid clutter. Also, if you rely on any custom items, please, post them so we can fully understand your tactics, spoiler them as well, to avoid clutter.

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Let me go ahead and start it off with Penalty Stacking.

The GMs I play generally favor humanoid opponents, so these tactics work out well. In addition, the Pathfinder Society Scenarios I've witnessed, generally favored humanoid opponents as well, so I imagine the work out to some degree of success in Pathfinder Society.

The key to Penalty Stacking are Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes.

In Penalty Stacking, one should try and apply as many penalties as possible. I use this method with my own Monk of the Four Winds, but his build isn't necessary to apply these tactics. The Penalties we are attempting, are:

Prone:
The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.


Grappled:
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.


Pinned:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

and

Helpless:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

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On your turn, you move up, and Trip your opponent. If you succeed, he falls Prone. Once this is done, his turn will come. On his turn, he will probably attempt to stand up, which provokes an Attack of Opportunity, which you will use to Disarm him. He is now standing up, but weaponless. Unless he has another weapon, he will probably try and retrieve his Disarmed weapon, which provokes an Attack of Opportunity. Use this Opportunity to Trip him once more. He will now have used his Move and Standard Actions, which ends his turn.

On your Turn, you Grapple him. Keep in mind, because he is Prone, he takes a -4 penalty to his AC against melee attacks, and any penalty to AC also applies to CMD. So, because he is Prone, his CMD vs your Grapple has been reduced by -4. Now on his turn, he will try to break free of the Grapple by using his Standard Action to make a Comb Maneuver or Escape Artist check. If he fails, he stays Grappled, and his turn is largely over, though he still keeps his Move action to do something.

On your turn, you will attempt to Pin him. First, you must maintain the Grapple, albeit, with a +5 Competence bonus to the Grapple check. Keep in mind, he is also still Prone, and now Grappled as well. So he will have a total of -4 to AC and -4 to Dexterity, netting him a -6 total penalty to his CMD. Once you maintain the Grapple, you Pin him.

He is now Pinned, which means is outright denied his Dexterity bonus (which opens him up for Sneak Attacks), and takes a further -4 to AC, for a total of -8 to AC and CMD and no Dexterity bonus. Keep in mind, the Grappled condition applied a -4 Dexterity penalty, which a -2 drop in AC and CMD, while Pinned only denies the Dexterity bonus. While Grapple applies a penalty, if he only has a 10 Dexterity to begin with, Pinned would apply no Dexterity penalty what-so-ever.

On his turn, he will attempt to break free, if he fails, it will be your turn again. On your turn, you can attempt to tie him up. He is at a minimum of a -8 penalty to his CMD, plus you have a +5 Competence bonus to your Grapple check. If you tie him up, he is Helpless, which means anyone can attempt a Coup de Grace as Full-Round Action, which could potentially kill him.

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For further Gravy, you can attempt a Stunning Fist first, but I don't suggest this as it requires a Fortitude save. If you are Penalty Stacking a low Fortitude character, such as a Wizard, by all means, Stunning Fist away, but against a Barbarian? Not so much.

Penalty Stacking, at least by this method, cannot be done to all creatures. There are a great many creatures that can't be Tripped, or are nearly impossible to Grapple. This tactic won't work for everyone, so if you are in a Monster focused campaign, I don't think Penalty Stacking is a trick for you. But if you are playing a humanoid-centric campaign, you may find a lot of use out of Penalty Stacking.

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If anyone else has any tips, tricks, or tactics that they employ to see their Monk succeed as a player, please, share them here for others to peruse. Until Convention Season is over, Paizo won't be able to adequately dedicate their time to 'fixing' the Monk class. In the mean time, we must play with the abilities that lay before us.


I generally take the Improved Grapple/Greater Grapple chain. If I'm already next to an opponent, I can grapple/pin in the same round. Next round Tie Up with my spider silk rope I always wear. I can even grapple 2 opponents if they are standing adjacent to me in the same round. Pump Dex, Agile Maneuvers, and Monk's Robe.

Also, as a Monk, after your opponent is Tied Up, you can Coup de Grace!

Also take a dip into the Dimensional Agility feat chain so you can Abundant Step behind BBEG spellcaster and grapple the crap out of him!

Abundant Step behind BBEG and grapple, next round Pin/Tie Up with Greater Grapple and spider silk rope, next round Coup de Grace!


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I find monks excel at running. Whether you run in circles or directly away from danger, you'll likely outlive your friends.

He who monks and runs away, lives to monk another day!

Scarab Sages

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My first PFS Character is a Monk. Now 11th level. I can not overstate how useful the Feat Ki Throw has been. It is an incredible force multiplier. Dropping your opponent prone into a flanking position and/or a charge lane is an amazing advantage.


My favorite type of monk is the Maneuver Master, largely for this reason. It's everything I've ever wanted on a monk, and the penalties it can inflict are staggering. That said, non-Maneuver Masters can use most of this too.

Meteor Hammers are my go-to weapon for unarmed / combat maneuver monks, with or without proficiency. +1 AC, reach, trip is always useful. Two-handed means you always have a hand free.

Trip + Ki Throw + Lunge/Large Size is truly epic for battlefield control. Greater Trip allows you to give your allies AoO's as well.

Hamatula Strike is required for Grappling Builds, IMO. I usually combine it with Snake Style or Emoi Piercers rather than Hamatulatsu. It's effectively Improved Grab.

Greater Dirty Trick is feat intensive, but just plain unfair. It turns solo and boss encounters into trivial things unless the GM builds around you. Quick Dirty Trick and/or being a Maneuver Master makes it doubly so.


What does this monk do when encountering an untrippable (i.e. multilegged/no-legged/flying) and/or non-weapon-using enemy?


One question: do penalties stack? I mean if you get a -2 Penalty to Dexterity and a -4 Penalty to Dexterity, don't you just apply the -4?

I know that is how it works for spells; isn't it the same with combat?

MA


Umbral Reaver wrote:
What does this monk do when encountering an untrippable (i.e. multilegged/no-legged/flying) and/or non-weapon-using enemy?

Maybe dirty trick.


Tels wrote:
The GMs I play generally favor humanoid opponents, so these tactics work out well. In addition, the Pathfinder Society Scenarios I've witnessed, generally favored humanoid opponents as well, so I imagine the work out to some degree of success in Pathfinder Society.
Tels wrote:
Penalty Stacking, at least by this method, cannot be done to all creatures. There are a great many creatures that can't be Tripped, or are nearly impossible to Grapple. This tactic won't work for everyone, so if you are in a Monster focused campaign, I don't think Penalty Stacking is a trick for you. But if you are playing a humanoid-centric campaign, you may find a lot of use out of Penalty Stacking.

This method works, for me and won't always work for everyone else. My GMs are always pretty cool about letting things fly if it's a cool thing to do. Using this same Monk, I've grappled flying opponents, and pinned a Bulette at level 4 or 5. For the flyer, I used my Ki to leap up in the air, and grab a Gargoyle and we both plummeted to the ground. Sure, it hurt like hell, but now he was on the ground where I could pin him.

This thread was supposed to be a list of tactics or strategies for Monks to use in their game. These methods of success can also equally be used by just about everyone. The Penalty Stacking is something I've found to work well with my group. What works for me, isn't going to work for everyone, which is why I put those quotes into the original post I made.


master arminas wrote:

One question: do penalties stack? I mean if you get a -2 Penalty to Dexterity and a -4 Penalty to Dexterity, don't you just apply the -4?

I know that is how it works for spells; isn't it the same with combat?

MA

Quote:
Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.

So I figure since these penalties are not from the same source and have no type, they probably stack.

As for my contribution: The name of the game for monk damage is size shennanigans. Anything that will make you bigger gives you much more bang for your buck than even a greatsword weilding barbarian.

1.)You can stack one virtual size increase (your unarmed strike is treated as X size larger) with one actual size increase (your size increases to large/huge/gargantuan). The best combo in the game is currently Strong Jaw and Druidic wildshape (huge creatures) for a 4 size increase to unarmed strike. (12d8 damage with a starting 2d10 base damage). Clerics have some ability here too with righteous might, as do empyreal sorcerers (who are probably just as good as druids, but less durable)

Note: If you play in PFS, a lvl 10 character can have a 6d8 unarmed strike damage with these tactics, which should put paid to anybody who complains about having a monk on their team.

2.) You don't have to be a lvl 20 monk to get 2d10 unarmed damage, a monk's belt will take care of 5 levels of that and monastic legacy will pick up the slack. The magic number is 10, when multiclassed with 10 levels in another class, you get 5 effective monk levels from monastic legacy and 5 levels from a monk's belt, which will give you full 20th level unarmed damage of 2d10.

prototype00


That's not actually strictly true Prototype. In order for a Druid to have a 2d10 Unarmed Strike, he's got to be at least a 15th level Monk with a Monks belt, and the Druid would have to be at least 8th level to achieve huge size. Now, I'm not very familiar with the Druid, so I don't know any tricks for playing one, so there may be ways of boosting your effective Druid level, but I don't know them.

What I do know, is the best I've been able to do along the lines of boosting a Monk's unarmed strike can be seen in this and following posts. The posted Monk I show is named Captain Falcon and he's got a powerful 'one-hit punch' (despite the fact it's not actually one punch, it would appear as one to others).

[Edit] Ok, wow, I read your second point, but for some reason, didn't process it at all. The Druid Monk is certainly an interesting idea though.


So here are the tricks:

1: Monastic legacy is a feat that counts half the levels in a non-monk class as monk levels for determining unarmed damage. If you have 10 levels in a non-monk class, thats 5 effective monk levels. Hence, druid 20 is worth monk 5.

2: Shaping focus is a feat that counts up to 4 non-druid levels as druid levels for the purpose of determining wild shape. A 8 druid/4 monk character with shaping focus counts as a 12 druid for what wildshape can do.

3: Ah right the vital strike line of feats, well using the same tactics that you did in that post, this character can deal 48d8 as as standard action, but I'd rather pounce and use the janni rush style + the dragon ferocity style feat to deal:

24d8 (+3x str bonus) + 12d8 (+1.5x str bonus) + 12d8 (+1.5x str bonus) + 3x natural attacks (+ 0.5x str bonus) as a full attack action.

prototype00

(you'll have to be a Master of Many Styles and give up flurry to do this, but since you can't flurry and use natural attacks, its a worthwhile trade)


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How you build your monk and how you play your monk are intrinsically linked. As Tels knows, my monks go for dex and defence rather than strength and offence. It doesn't make them totally useless as their to-hit actually tends to rack up quite well, although their damage lags badly.

Here are two examples of my monks:

Icandu:
Icandu
Male Human (Vudrani) Monk 13
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 34, touch 30, flat-footed 25 (+4 armor, +8 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 81 (13d8+13)
Fort +12, Ref +19, Will +16
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison; SR 23
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Offense
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Speed 70 ft.
Melee +1 Mithral Kama +18/+13 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham +18/+13 (1d6+1/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +19/+14 (2d6+9/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +18/+13 (1d8+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken +18/+13 (1d2+1/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
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Statistics
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Str 10/12, Dex 20/26, Con 10/12, Int 14, Wis 16/20, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +21 (+23 Grappling, +23 Tripping); CMD 40 (42 vs. Grapple, 42 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Traits Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device), Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb)
Skills Acrobatics +24, Appraise +3, Climb +20, Disable Device +32, Escape Artist +13, Heal +6, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +21, Ride +12, Sense Motive +21, Sleight of Hand +13, Stealth +24, Swim +8
Languages Common, Draconic, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ Abundant Step, AC Bonus +8, Astrolabe, Earplugs, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Map Maker's Kit, Purity of Body, Ram, portable, Slow Fall 60', Smoked Goggles, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Vow of Truth (+2 Ki), Wholeness of Body (13 HP/use)
Combat Gear +1 Crossbow, Light, +1 Mithral Kama, Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken (50), Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham; Other Gear Acid Flask (3), Agile Amulet, Alchemist's Fire Flask (3), Alkali Flask (3), Astrolabe, Bedroll, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +6, Bladeguard, Blanket, winter, Bracers of Armor, +4, Caltrops (2), Chalk, 1 piece, Climber's kit, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Crowbar, Earplugs, Everburning torch, Fishhook, Flint and steel, Goggles of Minute Seeing, Grappling hook, Hammer, Handy Haversack (67 @ 129.64 lbs), Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Heatstone, Holy Water Flask (3), Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism, Ioun Stone, Pale Blue Rhomboid, Ioun Stone, Pink Rhomboid, Liquid Ice (3), Map Maker's Kit, Mirror, small steel, Oil of Bless Weapon (2), Piton (10), Pole, 10-foot, Pot, iron, Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (2), Potion of Fly, Potion of Invisibility, Potion of Remove Curse, Potion of Resist Acid 10, Potion of Resist Fire 10, Powder (2), Ram, portable, Rations, trail (per day) (3), Ring of Protection, +2, Rope, silk (50 ft.) (2), Sack (empty), Sack (empty), Sewing needle, Smoked Goggles, Spade or shovel, Spyglass, Sunrod (3), Tanglefoot bag (3), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Twine (50'), Whetstone
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Special Abilities
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Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
AC Bonus +8 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Astrolabe +2 navigation
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) You may make up to 9 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Earplugs +2 save vs. hearing effects, -5 hearing-based Perception.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+40') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point) (Ex) +13 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Map Maker's Kit +2 Circumstance for Survival to avoid becoming lost.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Ram, portable +2 to STR checks to break open a door, and allows a second helper (+2).
Slow Fall 60' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Smoked Goggles +8 save vs. visual effects, -4 sight-based Perception and you treat all opponents as having 20% concealment.
Spell Resistance (23) You have Spell Resistance.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (13 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb) Climb becomes a Wisdom-based, class skill.

Icandu was made for some tests, but is an example of a monk I would go for in a real game.

Feriah:
Feriah 'Locks' Sirebane
Female Human (Chelaxian) Monk 10
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 25, flat-footed 21 (+2 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 91 (10d8+20)
Fort +10, Ref +15, Will +12
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee +1 Ghost Touch Kama +14/+9 (1d6+3/x2) and
. . Cold Iron Kama +13/+8 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Sai +13/+8 (1d4+2/x2) and
. . Silver Kama +13/+8 (1d6+1/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +13/+8 (1d10+2/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Crossbow, Light +14/+9 (1d8/19-20/x2) and
. . Shuriken +13/+8 (1d2+2/x2) and
. . Sling +13/+8 (1d4+2/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
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Statistics
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Str 15, Dex 21/23, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16/18, Cha 14
Base Atk +7; CMB +16 (+18 Disarming, +18 Grappling, +18 Tripping); CMD 34 (36 vs. Disarm, 36 vs. Grapple, 40 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise +/-2, Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round), Dodge, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Snake Sidewind, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19), Weapon Finesse
Traits Unhappy Childhood (Tortured), Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device)
Skills Acrobatics +19, Climb +12, Disable Device +22, Escape Artist +11, Heal +7, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (local) +4, Knowledge (nature) +3, Knowledge (nobility) +3, Knowledge (religion) +9, Linguistics +4, Perception +17, Perform (dance) +7, Profession (sailor) +8, Ride +10, Sense Motive +19, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +19, Survival +5, Swim +7
Languages Celestial, Common, Shoanti, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ AC Bonus +6, Fast Movement (+30'), High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 50', Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken), Unarmed Strike (1d10), Vow of Truth (+2 Ki), Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use)
Combat Gear +1 Ghost Touch Kama, Bolts, Crossbow (28), Bullets, Sling (10), Cold Iron Kama, Masterwork Crossbow, Light, Sai, Shuriken (15), Silver Kama, Sling; Other Gear Alchemist's Fire Flask, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Backpack (16 @ 30.62 lbs), Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +2, Bracers of Armor, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Crowbar, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Healer's kit (10 uses), Holy Water Flask (2), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (2), Potion of Cure Serious Wounds (2), Potion of Invisibility, Powder, Ring of Protection, +2, Rope, silk (50 ft.), Soap (per lb), Sunrod (3), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Torch, Waterskin
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round) You may make up to 7 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Snake Sidewind Gain a bonus to avoid being knocked prone, and use Sense Motive check to confirm critical hits
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.

Feriah is a monk from a game I am currently playing. Equipment has been limited, and for a character running at about half normal WBL I think she's pretty good.

My strategy and tactics depend on the situation, but by and large I always bear in mind that battles are won by he who is 'fustest with mostest' and rely on my monk being fastest. Tying foes down and keeping them occupied is as important as beating on them if the rest of the party are playing catch-up; if you can disrupt, interfere with, occupy or otherwise take the heat off the rest of the party with your defences, it can buy them time. In these circumstances tripping three foes is more important than killing one.

A good example is when in the last session the party were being peppered by orcs from a fortified tower. Feriah got to the tower and sought out the entrance before the rest of the party joined her, while the party's ranger kept the archers busy. She challenged the orc leader to keep him occupied while the party caught up - she certainly couldn't beat him, but managed to keep him occupied until the party magus popped up to help her out (cost half her hit points, though). Between them both he was toast. They then went in via the top of the tower while the party's paladin and oracle went in via the front door.

Encountering the rest of the orcs, three of them pounced on Feriah - and lost a few more HP. She tripped two and stunned the third before the magus used dragon's breath to drop them (thank you, evasion). The rest were dealt with in short order.

It was a tactic that worked...kind of. Feriah took a lot of damage taking the heat off everyone else, and a lucky crit could have finished her. At the end of the day, any hiccup in the party coming through would leave the monk on a limb. Feriah will get by, and hopefully compensate for her poor damage output when she gets Stake Fang next level, when all the misses the enemy have provide more opportunities for her to get a hit in on them. Then her major problem will be beating DR...

Sovereign Court

Dot.


I haven't played a monk in ages but one idea I had was burning a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency and using a glaive (for the reach). That would seem to dovetail well with combat reflexes, especially at lower levels.


Marius Castille wrote:
I haven't played a monk in ages but one idea I had was burning a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency and using a glaive (for the reach). That would seem to dovetail well with combat reflexes, especially at lower levels.

The problem with this is then you don't get the full BAB because you can't flurry with a Glaive (not a Monk weapon).


Tels wrote:
Marius Castille wrote:
I haven't played a monk in ages but one idea I had was burning a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency and using a glaive (for the reach). That would seem to dovetail well with combat reflexes, especially at lower levels.
The problem with this is then you don't get the full BAB because you can't flurry with a Glaive (not a Monk weapon).

Sohei?


Dabbler wrote:
Tels wrote:
Marius Castille wrote:
I haven't played a monk in ages but one idea I had was burning a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency and using a glaive (for the reach). That would seem to dovetail well with combat reflexes, especially at lower levels.
The problem with this is then you don't get the full BAB because you can't flurry with a Glaive (not a Monk weapon).
Sohei?

That's one way, but not until 6th level IIRC.


Dotted!

Great idea for a thread, btw.


Tels wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Tels wrote:
Marius Castille wrote:
I haven't played a monk in ages but one idea I had was burning a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency and using a glaive (for the reach). That would seem to dovetail well with combat reflexes, especially at lower levels.
The problem with this is then you don't get the full BAB because you can't flurry with a Glaive (not a Monk weapon).
Sohei?
That's one way, but not until 6th level IIRC.

I was thinking more in terms of threatening additional squares than gaining any use from flurry. A fighter could more effectively use the tactic but an armorless, shieldless monk may get more personal benefit from it by getting another swing at something that approaches him.


Marius Castille wrote:
Tels wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Tels wrote:
Marius Castille wrote:
I haven't played a monk in ages but one idea I had was burning a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency and using a glaive (for the reach). That would seem to dovetail well with combat reflexes, especially at lower levels.
The problem with this is then you don't get the full BAB because you can't flurry with a Glaive (not a Monk weapon).
Sohei?
That's one way, but not until 6th level IIRC.
I was thinking more in terms of threatening additional squares than gaining any use from flurry. A fighter could more effectively use the tactic but an armorless, shieldless monk may get more personal benefit from it by getting another swing at something that approaches him.

Good idea. Use the Glaive for reach, drop the Glaive and close in if you need to. Potion of Enlarge Person to make that a reach of 20 ft and hit them 3 times first.


Tels wrote:
Marius Castille wrote:
Tels wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Tels wrote:
Marius Castille wrote:
I haven't played a monk in ages but one idea I had was burning a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency and using a glaive (for the reach). That would seem to dovetail well with combat reflexes, especially at lower levels.
The problem with this is then you don't get the full BAB because you can't flurry with a Glaive (not a Monk weapon).
Sohei?
That's one way, but not until 6th level IIRC.
I was thinking more in terms of threatening additional squares than gaining any use from flurry. A fighter could more effectively use the tactic but an armorless, shieldless monk may get more personal benefit from it by getting another swing at something that approaches him.
Good idea. Use the Glaive for reach, drop the Glaive and close in if you need to. Potion of Enlarge Person to make that a reach of 20 ft and hit them 3 times first.

You wouldn't even need to drop the glaive. Just attack with elbows, knees, and feet.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

There is the interesting weapon the Kyoketsu Shoge. Not not a major damage dealer, it is one of two reach monk weapons (the other being the double chained kama). You can either make a 20' throwing attack, or a reach, although it's listed as S or P (for the blade) while the flavor text says it deals bludgeoning damage as a reach weapon.

Sovereign Court

So does the Shoge also function as a non-reach melee weapon? The description seems to imply so. That makes it a very nice versatile weapon.


Ascalaphus wrote:
So does the Shoge also function as a non-reach melee weapon? The description seems to imply so. That makes it a very nice versatile weapon.

Well, when I Googled what it looked like, I would say you wield the blade in the 'off-hand' and use the circle in the primary hand. You gain reach when you use the circle, but keep the dagger for attacking adjacent squares.

Not a damage-dealer by any means, but use that weapon for ranged trip attacks and it's one of the only weapons I've seen for grapple, meaning that any weapon enhancement, weapon focus, weapon training etc, with that weapon counts on the grapple check.


Here is my concept for a trip based Monk. This build does use 4 levels of Fighter to pickup some extra feats. I feel that 1-4 levels of Fighter is often a good addition to a Monk build as it loses little in comparison to what it gains. This is especially true thanks to the Monk's Robes as it makes up for much of what you would have otherwise lost.

Spoiler:
Vanaran
Weapon Master Fighter
Weapon Adept Monk

Str 12
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 18
Cha 8

1 - Monk 1: Pefect Strike (bonus), Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes (Monk 1), Combat Expertise (1st)
2 - Monk 2: Dodge (Monk 2), Weapon Focus (bonus)
3 - Fighter 1: Improved Trip (Fighter 1), Power Attack (3rd), Wapon Guard
4 - Fighter 2: Vicious Stomp (Fighter 2)
5 - Fighter 3: Ki Throw (5th), Weapon Training
6 - Fighter 4: Fury's Fall (Fighter 4)
7 - Monk 3: Tripping Staff (7th), Fast Movement, Maneuver Training, Still Mind
8 - Monk 4: Ki Pool (magic), Slow Fall 20ft.
9 - Monk 5: Lunge (9th), Ki Stand (QingGong), Purity of Body
10 - Monk 6: Weapon Specialization (bonus), Improved Bull Rush (Monk 6), Slow Fall 30ft
11 - Monk 7: Greater Trip (11th), Gaseous Form (QingGong)
12 - Monk 8: Slow Fall 40ft.
13 - Monk 9: Tripping Twirl (13th), Evasion
14 - Monk 10: Improved Critical (bonus), Ki Pool (Lawful), Slow Fall 50ft
15 - Monk 11: Improved Ki Throw (15th), Ki Leach (QingGong)
16 - Monk 12: Abundant Step, Slow Fall 60ft.
17 - Monk 13: Disorienting Maneuver (17th), Diamond Soul
18 - Monk 14: Tripping Strike (bonus), Slow Fall 70ft.
19 - Monk 15: (19th), Cloud Step (QingGong)
20 - Monk 16: Ki Pool (Adamantine), Slow Fall 80ft.

One thing that Monk excels at is being able to give out fairly consistent battlefield control from melee. There are few other classes that can do this as well. This build focuses on tripping. It could be more maneuver focused if it used Maneuver Master but I did not want it to be a one trick pony. Instead, I wanted to also be able to dish out good damage in addition to tripping for the situations where tripping wasn't a good option.

I feel that this build excels at it's role because it trips with a staff negating the possibility of being counter tripped. Because it has Weapon Training from it's Fighter levels it should be able to push out good damage when not tripping as it can flurry with the staff and be doing Weapon Training (with Dueling Gloves) and Weapon Specialization enhanced damage. Fury's Fall ensures a higher trip chance. Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp combined with Lunge and Combat Reflexes (and a high Dex) ensure that you will not be wasting your AoOs and be putting more people on their butts and stomping faces every turn.

The goal here is to not allow anything to approach you (and more importantly your party) without ending up on the ground and more damaged than when they started. With Ki Throw, Improved Ki Throw and Lunge you have huge options of where you can deposit your foes. With options like Tripping Twirl and Tripping Strike you can assure that you are tripping multiple foes every turn. With all of the AoOs that will be provoked around you this build will be able to get more AoOs than some builds get iteratives and be able to do more with them.


This is the very monk I'm playing. I forget where I saw these stats and decided to go with them; I am gambling Dex versus Con in the hopes that I won't be hit much. I will be taking the Crane Style feat chain and Vicious Stomp--and yeah, I know I'll lose efficacy around level 6 or so. Not sure what to do about that, but then again, no one else is.

What I did try recently that worked nicely was something I called "Flurry of Bags". I drew a Tanglefoot Bag, deliberately provoking an AoO, and then used my Redirection to trip the opponent. When they rose from prone, I used my AoO to toss the Bag. Worked well.

Interestingly, I was reading through the rules to see if I need Improved Reposition, as Reposition is something that can do to untrippable opponents (but not anything above Large opponents, just like Trip). Would Redirection using Reposition without a feat provoke an AoO? I don't thiiiink so, but I'm not sure.


Enko Laberan wrote:
...When they rose from prone, I used my AoO to toss the Bag.

Hmmm. I like the idea, but it wouldn't happen at my table. AOOs are only melee attacks.

PF SRD wrote:
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack...

cheers


Thanks for pointing that out, Jubal. Darn. I need something I can use to just slap on an opponent. You'd think I could attach a Tanglefoot Bag to a stick.


Monks can attack with any part of their body as an unarmed strike. You could consider using this to teabag your opponent. Its no tanglefoot bag but it certainly is a classy move.


That would constitute Dirty Trick, I believe.

Sczarni

Tels wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Tels wrote:
Marius Castille wrote:
I haven't played a monk in ages but one idea I had was burning a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency and using a glaive (for the reach). That would seem to dovetail well with combat reflexes, especially at lower levels.
The problem with this is then you don't get the full BAB because you can't flurry with a Glaive (not a Monk weapon).
Sohei?
That's one way, but not until 6th level IIRC.

1level of Cleric + Crusaders Flurry. If Sheylin is your deity you now fluffy w/glaive and get 3:1 with Power Attack on account of 2 handed weapon.

Or how about a Hungry Ghost Monk of Sarenrae with a keen scimitar?

Dark Archive

Lune wrote:
Monks can attack with any part of their body as an unarmed strike. You could consider using this to teabag your opponent. Its no tanglefoot bag but it certainly is a classy move.

That was true in 3.5.

In pathfinder there are a list of acceptable body parts you can use.


Really? We are going to nitpick that now? You are wrong. The wording has changed very little between editions.

3.5 SRD wrote:
A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet.
Pathfinder PRD wrote:
A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet.

That being said, I thought I was being fairly clearly humorously sarcastic in my suggestion. I will have to try harder in the future to make sure that my attempts at satire are more clear.


One of my players has a Monk. His tactics:

1) Strut up to the enemy and punch them using Vital Strike.
2) Flurry of Blows for every round afterwards. (Hopefully someone will help out by flanking.)
3) rinse and repeat.

The party's Rogue and Barbarian hate him for being so fast. But they love it when he helps flank. His massive damage output is enough.

House Ruled Monk Weapon::

Handwraps/Gloves: to put on and take off treat as a Gauntlet, Rope. Pricing is as a club. Monks can use their unarmed damage for attacks with this weapon. It doesn't interfere with any actions. They can't be made of any special materials.
Reasoning: it gives Monks and even non-monks an easy fall back weapon.
Please Note: I Also use the version of the Brass Knuckles, Cestus and such where a Monk can use their Unarmed Strike damage

Shadow Lodge

Umbral Reaver wrote:
What does this monk do when encountering an untrippable (i.e. multilegged/no-legged/flying) and/or non-weapon-using enemy?

abundent step, dimentional agility, and grapple. powerbomb the hell out of those flying creatures. its my favorite character to play for sheer stupidness.


TheSideKick wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
What does this monk do when encountering an untrippable (i.e. multilegged/no-legged/flying) and/or non-weapon-using enemy?
abundent step, dimentional agility, and grapple. powerbomb the hell out of those flying creatures. its my favorite character to play for sheer stupidness.

I think the images of this alone are worth it...


Azaelas Fayth wrote:
His massive damage output is enough.

You know, I've never really seen this sentence when referring to a Monk. Perhaps you could elaborate on the characters build? I'm having a hard time picturing a Monk make a Barbarian feel impotent in the damage department.


Tels wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
His massive damage output is enough.
You know, I've never really seen this sentence when referring to a Monk. Perhaps you could elaborate on the characters build? I'm having a hard time picturing a Monk make a Barbarian feel impotent in the damage department.

Remember, he is allowing the monk to use effective weapon enhancement. That makes a lot of difference.


Tels wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
His massive damage output is enough.
You know, I've never really seen this sentence when referring to a Monk. Perhaps you could elaborate on the characters build? I'm having a hard time picturing a Monk make a Barbarian feel impotent in the damage department.

It is mostly when flurry of blows is being used. Mind you none of these builds are exactly Optimized.

The Barbarian deals excellent damage. Once he gets stuck in... around turn 2-3... it is more of the collective damage in a single combat that is the difference.

This is Also on a good rolling day. Nothing beats seeing them roll all 1s for damage.
The spoiler contents help out a little too.


Dabbler wrote:
Tels wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
His massive damage output is enough.
You know, I've never really seen this sentence when referring to a Monk. Perhaps you could elaborate on the characters build? I'm having a hard time picturing a Monk make a Barbarian feel impotent in the damage department.
Remember, he is allowing the monk to use effective weapon enhancement. That makes a lot of difference.

Oddly enough... it really isn't. It just means they have more gold to spend else where.


Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Tels wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
His massive damage output is enough.
You know, I've never really seen this sentence when referring to a Monk. Perhaps you could elaborate on the characters build? I'm having a hard time picturing a Monk make a Barbarian feel impotent in the damage department.
Remember, he is allowing the monk to use effective weapon enhancement. That makes a lot of difference.
Oddly enough... it really isn't. It just means they have more gold to spend else where.

Which could be it as well. More enhancement = more hits and more damage in each hit. More gold elsewhere could mean more items like a Belt of Giant Strength or similar.

If you have six attacks compared to three attacks, +1 to hit and +2 damage on each attack adds up much faster.


I could potentially see an optimized Monk out-damaging an under-built Barbarian or Rogue, but I think your party is one of those fluke cases.


... let's see out of all the campaigns I have been involved in... 25 "under-built" Monks have been powerful. While 10-15 wouldn't deal this level of damage they still could hold their own in a fight.

And none of them was optimized. Not even the Monk. And the Monk spent all their gold on a Belt of Physical Perfection (is that the one that effects all 3 attributes?) After this encounter and only then because they decided it was worth the Extra HP.


Yes, but from other threads I have seen that you allow monks in your games the luxury of weapons that enhance unarmed strike without costing an arm and a leg. Your experiences otherwise do not seem to square with anyone else's or the numbers crunched. I am not trying to belittle them or imply you are being less than truthful, but compared to other combat classes the monk does seem to struggle, especially above 8th level.


Really it depends on what you throw at them... normal CR=APL encounters aren't that difficult. Add to it the few times they need the enchantment they can easily get something like a Magical Temple Sword. They will still have more maneuverability to get into combat.

A Monk using a Belt and a Magic Tattoo can result in a more effective character than a Fighter with around 12 Bags of Holding full of Weapons. If they are a Suli they get even better.


Effective at what, though? A fighter with a decent weapon should beat the monk hands down at combat in DPR or maneuvers. I'd love to see these character sheets.


Dabbler wrote:
Effective at what, though? A fighter with a decent weapon should beat the monk hands down at combat in DPR or maneuvers. I'd love to see these character sheets.

The Fighter might have a slightly better To-Hit, but damage will be mostly evened out do to damage dice.

After all the most one can get from a single Weapon is a +5. 2D6 vs. 2d10. Ok the Fighter might get a +1 damage over the Monk.

Adding Energy damage can boost the Fighter's damage a little bit as well. But will be a situational bonus.


Fighters can two hand their weapon to get 1.5 STR bonus and 1 for 3 power attack returns.

Monks only get 2d10 at level 20, or level 15 if they're wearing a Monk's Robe.

At those levels fighters are also getting 3-to-4 points of bonus damage from Weapon Training, had the option to take the Weapon Specialization feat, and at level 20 are getting auto confirming crits with an increased multiplier.


What about the feat Enforcer? All your unarmed attacks can be non-lethal so every time you hit and inflict damage you can potentially intimidate your foe.

My current weapon master is dex based so she maxed out acrobatics. She flies through the air or tumbles among her foes to get into position and then flurries among piles of minions. This has also been achieved with stealth.

A player in another campaign has a maneuver master that basically does all the maneuver based stuff above.

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