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Those "Oops!" Moments in Kingmaker - A big read, but enjoy!


Alright, so this is more a log of events that have happened to me so far. I've not spoiled anything for myself and have just finished book 1 tonight, so please no spoilers past book one (I know, I know, this is in a Subforum full of spoilers, but still). :p

Anyway, my Cleric who I've had from the very beginning of the adventure has so far survived with only one or two close calls, mainly taking barely any damage each encounter.

At the minute he has the highest life of the party which is 37 (we just rolled for level 4 and that's what I've got with only a +2 Con, although Toughness came into play and helped out on this).

Below are my stats and a very detailed recap of the past events that took place in and around the Stag Lord's Fortress.

I hope you enjoy the read, as it's a long one! :)

Lelouch Vi Orlovsky's stats:
Name: Lelouch Vi Orlovsky
Race: Human
Class: Cleric of his own ideals
Domains: Charm and Nobility
Alignment: Neutral Good
Hair: Black
Eyes: Deep Purple (with a pink glow upon casting Charm and Compulsion spells)
Complexion: Pale
Age: 18

HP: 37
AC: 17

Level: 4

Str: 7
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Wis: 16
Int: 11
Cha: 16

BAB: 3
CMB: 1
CMD: 13

Initiative: 1
Speed: 20ft (Medium Load)

Fort: 6
Ref: 2
Will: 7

+1 HP per level - Toughness
+2 Skill Points per level - Favoured Class and Skilled Human Trait


Magical Lineage - Murderous Command
Noble Born (Orlovsky) - +1 CMD, +1 Diplomacy


Bluff - 5 (3 Class, 2 ranks)
Diplomacy - 11 (3 Class, 1 trait, 3 Cha, 4 ranks)
Knowledge Nobility - 7 (3 class, 4 ranks)
Linguistics - 4 (3 Class, 1 rank)
Sense Motive - 9 (3 Class, 3 Wis, 3 Ranks)
Spellcraft - 5 (3 Class, 2 ranks)

Note: I think these are right, but I don't have my character sheet with me, so I can't be certain all are correct.


1. Selective Channeling, Toughness
3. Spell Focus (Enchantments)

Currently Prepared Spells:

Cantrips - Light, Create Water, Purify Food and Drink, Detect Magic

Level 1 - Command x1, Murderous Command x3, Charm (Domain)
Level 2 - Zone of Truth x1, Hold Person x2, Enthrall (Domain)


Channel Energy - 6 times per day at 2d6

Dazing Touch (Sp): You can cause a living creature to become dazed for 1 round as a melee touch attack. Creatures with more Hit Dice than your cleric level are unaffected. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Inspiring Word (Sp): As a standard action, you can speak an inspiring word to a creature within 30 feet. That creature receives a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1). You can use this power a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Attack Output:

5, 1d8 19-20x2

Equipment: Light Masterwork Darkwood Crossbow, 30 bolts, 2 flame bolts, Breastplate.

I'm hoping to be the Ruler and am in the running, but the Sorceress min-maxed, so has a +5 on Charisma and +16 on Diplomacy, beating me unfortunately. Plus, she has faith in Erastil, where as I don't have faith in general.

Anyway, this character has so far given us all very memorable moments.

Lelouch started out very bossy, telling the PC's what to do (as he was previously a Noble Orlovsky Tactician) and stated publicly that he was above all Bandits, but has since been more diplomatic with how he's dealt with things. To enemies however, he hasn't.

Today, we continued our game from last week where the Stag Lord had just turned up.


A strange group of mixed personalities had found the Stag Lord's Fort and attempted to gain entry, not through the front gates, but around the side, through a more inconspicuous route.

On the way there, Undead creatures burst out of the ground, moaning and groaning with eerie tone and fast, voracious movement.

A group of 4 crawled out, heading straight for the NPC's. The Dwarven Cleric (Diago) channeled positive energy, but there wasn't much of a surge and the undead pressed on towards us.

The fighters of the group stepped up, attacking where possible with the aid of both Lelouch and Diago's channeled energy, where the first wave dropped. Shortly after though, another 4 crawled out and unsure on whether or not to channel any more, the Dwarf stopped and the Fighter battled it out, winning after a slow and grueling process.

Next up was wave number 3 and by this point, Lelouch, who commands the group tactically from the back (next to Kieana, the unarmoured Sorceress) grew tired of this, walked forwards into the middle of them and channeled positive energy. They dropped the very moment they stood up.

The Hidden Passageway

We uncovered a hidden doorway into the Fort. After clearing the debris and overgrowth covering the entrance, we stepped inside. We all tried to remain hidden with stealth, but only the weakest characters succeeded on this (Lelouch and Kieana).

Guards swiftly approached the group, with a lieutenant typed Rogue figure seemingly aiding them. This Rogue was nasty, but not seeing Kieana or Lelouch, Lelouch stepped out from concealment and knew he had to do something about his allies being flanked.

So, he did what any good manipulator would do....

He stepped forwards within range and commanded an enemy at the back of the group to attack his ally. The currently flanking enemy who received the blow was outright slaughtered by his team mate, with nothing but a solid single hit (crit insta-kill!). Diago was flanked no more and the Rogue could no longer get his Sneak Attacks off.

Soon after, the hooded figure was backed into a corner, with Kilik (the Druid on one side of him and Diago (the Defending Dwarven Cleric) on the other. By this point, the enemy at the back who murdered his ally was slain by Akiros who approached originally from behind Lelouch (who was unsettled by the fact he had a randomly armed man walk in behind him on the previous round). After this, the only normal Bandit guard left fell to the floor after Lelouch commanded him to do so, giving Galgo the opportunity to turn around and plunge his sword deep into the prone, helpless body, laid out on the floor.

The Rogue was shortly after dropped and Lelouch burst out laughing, power hungry and proud of himself. He loved the fact people did what he commanded and although that could be interpreted as being bad or evil, he only ever does it to those who pose a threat to him, as he likes to get on with people and wouldn't ever dream of hurting an innocent person. Though, charming someone to do his bidding, if it helped him a great deal would be his first choice and he wouldn't be against doing that to anyone.

A Bandit peered over the edge and noticed Akiros with us. This made Akiros attack Diago constantly, but only hitting his shield in an act to give the illusion he was fighting against the party. When the guard disappeared however, Lelouch smirked at him as he wasn't stupid. He knew what was going on and it was his way of thanking him before heading upstairs.

As the group got upstairs, archers were everywhere and as they progressed forwards, a strange looking brute jumped over a wall and out to the right of Lelouch, hitting him hard enough to get a reaction from the Orlovsky Noble. This didn't stop Lelouch however, who just channeled energy on himself, walked past (giving an AoO) and with angst in his voice, said aloud "f****** b****!" where he then moved around to charm the furthest away archer, failing miserably.

After a while, everyone but the bandit fell. This bandit, now known as Auch's cowered in the corner for his life, where the Sorceress Kieana assured him we wouldn't hurt him (rolling a 33 on Diplomacy). This made him not only friendly, but helpful to us.

Shortly after, loud footsteps were heard. Akiros, still on the ground level with the Dwarven Cleric abruptly marched off. Moments later, the Dwarf came face to face with an Owlbear!

The combat went on for a long time, with most of us using up the last of our spells to try and get the Cleric free of the Owlbear's grapple.

Never facing such a beast before, Lelouch figured the creature had to be humanoid in some way and attempted to use his Hold Person on the beast, so the Cleric could fall to safety. This however, was his only decent spell left and was also his only Hold Person. The spell was wasted.

Kilik and Auchs climbed down and got a few attacks off on the beast, before quickly realising that nearing the beast was a very dangerous thing to do. Auch's hastily climbed back up the ladder and cowered in the corner once more. None of us could heal. Very few of us had any spells left, but the Owlbear dropped. This was when the Stag Lord turned up.


We were all weakened, lost almost all of our spells and healing abilities. Most of the Fort Guards were dead, with only the Stag Lord in sight.

Lelouch announced to the group that we should retreat and return when we're better prepared for this battle as he didn't see it ending well. The Half-Orc Druid (Kilik) disagreed, holding a personal grudge against the Stag Lord that he and the other party Cleric (Diago) had, due to their history.

Both Lelouch and the Half-Orc Fighter (Galgo) discuss leaving the party, leaving them to bare their own vengeful decisions, but ultimately decide to stick with the party as their intentions are good, but Lelouch favours tactics over stupidity and doesn't see why he should put himself in danger as a result of this.

All of a sudden the heavily armoured Dwarven Cleric takes a devastating blow and the threat becomes present to both he and his Druidic buddy.

The Druid high tails it.

On his way out, Kilik looks up to see Lelouch signalling him, where he hears the words; "Good decision. We should have done this before though."

The Druid and his Wolf Companion leave through the hidden passage that Lelouch discovered, enabling entry in the first place. One by one we leave, knowing that Diago is still face to face with the Stag Lord himself, but everyone knew he'd follow. He may be dim witted, but when danger is at its peak, he knows when to go.

Kilik is first out, his Wolf (Husk) second. Kieana (the Sorceress) follows with Galgo behind her and Lelouch behind him.

Following Lelouch was Auchs. The enemy Lelouch insulted, now turned helpful (thanks to Kieana's 33 on Diplomacy).

With all of the stumbling, Auchs knocked the Orlovsky Noble on the ground, muddying his Student attire (which has become his Adventuring Gear, with his tight fitting Breastplate underneath) and grazing him in the process. Galgo shoves forward and the same happens to Kieana, at which point Lelouch looks up from the dirt, smirks at Kiana and says "How's the view?" with a slightly smug, but friendly grin on his face.

Lelouch gets up and brushes himself off.

He moves his full distance (20 feet), but that's not enough to escape.

With the party fleeing all around him and knowing that he must get to the path swiftly in order to avoid more Undead spawning, he attempts to move at double his speed, when all of a sudden the Cleric pops out of the passageway behind him, with the Stag Lord between the two of them, one step behind them.

Everyone's worried and emotions are high, but Lelouch, even with his limited supply of Spells still hasn't given up hope and proceeds to do something incredibly clever....

With a quick step away (5ft step) from the brutish, relentless and fearful Bandit leader, Lelouch knows the limitation of his spells and acknowledging that Murderous Command, his only real spell left, is not limited by Proximity, he Commands the Stag Lord to go back into the Fort and kill any last allies that may still be alive.

We escape.

The next day, Auch's brings over an Elk that he had slain for breakfast. All that's visible is the skin filled with brutally mashed up bones. Three of us are preparing our spells during this time (myself, Diago and Kilik), when during the studies Lelouch looks slowly looks up. He sarcastically smirks with an almost effortless grin and simply says "lovely..." before looking back to his spell book, preparing the spells needed to kill the groups number one enemy.

When all of us are ready, we head back towards the Fort, unsure on whether or not the leader had secured some more pawns to aid him in battle. This time, we know he's aware we'll be back, so we decide to take things head on through the front door, in hope that we may actually get the jump on him whilst he waits at the hidden entrance around the side of the Fort.

Several attempts on opening the door were made, but it wasn't until the 4th attempt that we gained entry.

As soon as the gates opened, the Stag Lord had heard all of the commotion and was waiting for us on the walkway in the middle of the Fort. Arrows flew down at both Lelouch and Kilik, knocking both characters from full life (26hp each) to almost unconscious (0hp) in one attack.

Kilik and his Wolf stumble inside, where Kilik then falls unconscious behind a small space of cover to the left. Lelouch, being smarter and wiser than the Druid channels energy to cure himself and those around him, where he proceeds to enter the Fort, only this time heading to the right for his own space of concealment.

Diago channels once more to boost our HP. Kilik and Lelouch are okay but still nowhere near as healthy as they should have been.

Galgo marches fourth with the Cleric behind him. Kieana stays outside out of harms reach, peering around the corner, looking up at the Bandit long enough to cast Magic Missile repeatedly.

After a few hits, the Stag Lord disappears. Husk (the Wolf) leaves his companions side and follows Galgo to the stairs that lead to one of the half destroyed watch towers, when suddenly Lelouch and Kilik spot Falgrim Sneeg....The one guy Lelouch wanted to bring in for Kesten, but not all was what it seemed.

Falgrim, laying slumped against a wall, had two arrows stuck in his chest. It was apparent that he was dead and by the Stag Lord's doing, too. How could this be, you wonder?

Well, it seemed that Lelouch's plan to give the evil leader a command to kill his ally didn't just allow for the party to escape the first time around. The Stag Lord must have been under the effects of the spell long enough to call his new servant over to him, before forcing Falgrim to leave this plane of existence with two well placed arrows. Kesten won't be happy, thought Lelouch.

Diago was in earshot when Kilik said "for such a great ability, I guess you could say it's not always great to use". Everyone chuckled, where as Lelouch sighed in disbelief, before laughing lightly and just replying with a simple "ahh, yea...."

With the Stag Lord still being a huge threat, Lelouch targeted him with a Command Spell, in hope that he would throw his weapons down 15 feet so that he was no longer a threat to the party. This failed however and Lelouch crouched down (50% concealment), only to have two more arrows fired at him.

The first one missed, but the second one hit (only just at 51), grazing his shoulder but seemingly hitting a vital point across the side of his neck. Lelouch was down and in a bad way (-5 from 12hp). The Dwarven Cleric was nowhere to be seen, no doubt aiding Galgo and Husk in their attempts to end the Stag Lords life.

Kilik, who was next to Lelouch, ignored his dying comrade and focused on burning the Stag Lord with a Flaming Sphere. The Sorceress, unsure of what to do and afraid for her own life decided to summon a bird. During this time, the Wolf had managed to jump up onto the wall and was flanking the leader with a flying, stationary bird the opposite side.

The Stag Lord fumbled, trying to fire at Kilik, twanging the string of his bow back into his face. Galgo (the Fighter) couldn't reach the enemy of the group, due to the Wolf being in the way, but before long and with the aid of the Flaming Sphere, the Stag Lord fell and noticing Lelouch sprawled across the floor and seemingly unconscious, Diago came to his aid, saving him from near death (-9 out of a max -14).

The group then proceeded to enter the basement.

Down here was a large ant that didn't last long against Lelouch's flame bolt and both Kilik and his Wolf's attacks.

A swarm of spiders suddenly appeared and the group killed them by drowning them with 6 gallons of water each (Lelouch's idea from an encounter before), along with a mental Cleric purposely falling onto them with his Tower Shield and Full Plate Armour.

This took around half a minute to deal with, but not without Kilik and Diago throwing up (failing their Fort saves) for a few seconds. Lelouch followed suit (after saving his original bites) and threw up a short time after, due to the continuous bites against him.

Lastly, a Wolverine showed up and the party had determined that these creatures attacking were in fact summoned.

The Wolverine dropped down and got a pretty hefty attack off against the Dwarf. This hit hard, but the Cleric continued to defend himself without too much danger to his health.

Finally, with a few crits from the Fighter and Druid, the Wolverine dropped, but not before turning back into human form. This proved familiar with us, as a similar thing happened back at the temple.

Once we had gathered all of the treasure, we headed back to Oleg's for our reward, where we were given our next Charter by the Restov Swordlord's.....


Ps. Please include your own stories, as this is a great opportunity to share your "Oops!" or unexpected moments in this part of the Adventure Path!

Wow, that was unfortunate.

So, due to failing a successful conversation with Akiross (I got a 29 on Diplomacy but apparently dug myself into a hole with what I said), I failed to become King.

So, I'm now a Grand Diplomat.

Anyway, already I've had someone try to Assassinate me, ending up taking one normal hit and two criticals before I went down (I'm currently level 4), the guy knew my name even though I haven't made it publicly known to anyone in the entire campaign and via the last critical on my eye, I now have the following penalties:

2 Con Drain
-4 Perception (my bonus was +4)
-4 Attack Bonus (Was +5, now only +1)
-1 Fortitude (due to Con Drain, so instead of a +6, it's now +5)
-5HP (from 37)

Lesser Restoration doesn't cure this and I can't get Restoration until I can cast level 4 level 7. I'm currently level 4. :/

I guess there's no way around this, so I think I'll visit another Nation (if allowed) to find a higher leveled Cleric to heal this.

I'm just glad it doesn't effect any of my Enchantment Spells, which is all I use (next to my Crossbow).

This was the evil card that destroyed me!

Eye Patch For You!

Scarab Sages

I'm afraid to even ask how failing a diplomacy check with a bandit you were sent to exterminate precludes you from becoming ruler. Even if he converted and became a saint, how in the world does that have any bearing on whether or not you can be king? Only you and the party can decide who is king or not. Heck you could make the Cha 6 dwarf fighter king if you wanted, as long as you were willing to suffer with his kingdom roll penalties.

It is my understanding that the part decides who does what role in the kingdom, so that everyone gets to play a role they enjoy. Is your GM doing it differently?

On the other hand, most politicians and rulers tend to be myopic, so your eye injury shouldn't interfere with your fitness as a ruler :P

Ah, the GM asked what we wanted to be at the start, then said the NPC's will determine who's ruler and practically everyone else got the role they wanted bar my character, which is what I thought would happen, so I was a little peed off.

Basically my guy had been leading the entire party from the start of the campaign, with the Sorceress supporting (also from the back) with her summoned creatures.

Reasons the Sorceress became Ruler:

Worships Erastil.
Everyone liked her.
She's nice (but didn't say much in character ever).
Higher Charisma (Min-Maxed +5)
The highest Diplomacy (16)
Not Noble Born
Summons Creatures

Reasons my Cleric didn't become Ruler:

Worships nobody - isn't religious.
Fewer people liked him (due to stating he's above Bandits).
He's nice but not as nice as the Sorceress (due to murderous command).
Lower Charisma (+3)
Lower Diplomacy (11)
Noble Born
Declared Orlovsky's most effective and youngest Tactician.

Now, before this was all said, the GM was telling me that I should choose something else in case I don't get to become ruler, so reluctantly I chose between Councilor and Grand Diplomat. Being the Ambassador of a Nation (that I named) seemed like the next best thing, so when the NPC's asked, in character I said "I will go for the highest position next to Ruler, so consider me as your Grand Diplomat, Ambassador Lelouch."

Anyway, I thought it was really off on the GM's side and favouritism took over, because the party Fighter agreed that Lelouch was the leader, and the NPC's recognised what he'd done for them, but said the Sorceress was nicer (all they saw my guy do was command the enemies to murder each other all of the time). Jhod hated Lelouch as he said he wasn't religious, Akiross was peed from the start after my guy mistook him for Falgrim Sneeg (we had no picture and Lelouch was obsessively trying to find Falgrim to bring in to Kesten).

Lelouch apologised to Akiross earlier, but last night, before the Kingdom Building, Lelouch ended up saying "I apologise for before. I was just trying to find Falgrim, but it proved to be in vain anyway, because indirectly and accidentally, when the Stag Lord chased us off outside, the only thing I could do which would ensure our survival was to command the Stag Lord to murder one of his men. hoping it wasn't you. We found Falgrim dead the next day, with the Stag Lord's arrows embedded deep within his chest."

The above was with a rolled Diplomacy of 18 (+11), which totalled 29, but due to my wording, the GM put it against me and said words count just as much as your score here, then told me if I hadn't have ruined that with Akiross, I would have been in the lead by 4 (as far as becoming King was concerned). Go figure.

I dunno, I said I was just getting Lelouch to be honest and that he'd gone out of his way to ensure the survival of everything and greet everyone, as well as lead the group to victory by turning enemies against one another, healing the party when needed and making all Diplomatic checks with everyone he met.

I said this and the GM said "well, you know what people are like. They easily disregard what you've done for them in favour of someone they like". I disagree with that because they would recognise what someone was best at and it's been clear from the start that Lelouch has been both Leader and Tactician (he's a Noble of the Orlovsky family, previously being their most effective and youngest Tactician).

Akiross has warmed to Lelouch, but Kesten and Oleg like him the most, with the party Fighter seeing him as his most valuable and loyal ally. It was Lelouch who made Kesten General and gave Oleg his position as Treasurer and having seen Lelouch return in good health after being stabbed in the eye when he's not a front line fighter, he has a lot of respect for the guy.

Lelouch also named the Kingdom and Capital.

Our base (chosen by others) is the Elk worshipping grounds, so Lelouch named the Capital "Elk's Reach" and stated that he would like to name the Kingdom "The United Federation of Nations", saying that if we make it clear people of other nations are welcome from the start, more people will want to join our Kingdom, which means as long as we keep our Loyalty and Stability in check, our Economy should improve all of the time.

He's also been in charge of the tax, keeping it as light and made sure one of the first things we built after housing for the people, was a Town Hall for the civilians to have their say.

He also didn't want the Castle/Palace being built into the Temple of the Elk, so suggested it be built next to it with a connecting bridge leading to it, so those who worship the God have easy access to the Temple. He's also made clear that he wants the basement of the palace to house prisoners in a basement prison, with the ground floor having quarters for the Knights and Guards of the Kingdom, with the next floor up having planning rooms for different operations and the highest floor being the higher up's living quarters, so Lelouch and other people can have clear view over the land, so that if anyone goes to war with them, he'll see them approaching with plenty of time to act.

The Sorceress just agreed and hasn't really made any big decisions, other than shifting her Rulership bonus in the Kingdom Building stages onto Economy, as the PC rolling for it has terrible luck.

So, now the question is; Does Lelouch use his Diplomacy and abilities to play the role of a double agent, so that he can ally with the winning Nation and overthrow them when the chance arrives, or does he continue to act as Grand Diplomat with his leadership qualities feeling bitter about not being chosen as King?

Whenever the weak's in danger, he'll be there to aid them, so he can still be good whilst thinking about his own personal desires and I think he'll no longer go out of his way to lead the party or aid them as effectively in battle, to see how well they do without him and instead, use the Fighter as his most loyal and trusted bodyguard, only aiding him in battle as he's the only one to recognise fully what he's done for everyone.

My first plan is to go around the City, using Diplomacy on everyone to make them love Lelouch. Then, I'll ask people to say "all hail Lelouch!" whenever he makes grand decisions, does things the people will respect and also when leaves them (after a conversation or public appearance). Hmm.

I was really disappointed about not becoming Ruler and it kind of ruined things for me as that's what I had my heart on for my character, when asked at the start, but hey, it's just a game I suppose. :/

Time to start the plotting with my +7 Bluff, +11 Diplomacy and +10 Sense Motive at level 4!

Scarab Sages

LOL... sounds like the GM decided who he wanted to be king. TBH, I would not be happy if NPCs got to pick the ruler of the kingdom. It is not called president maker, its called Kingmaker. However that being said, leaders who are elected because they are nice typically have a short rule, at least in my world. To wit:

“The world is built by killers” – The Hound

“You have what you hold” -The first River Freedom. The Stolen Lands have been uncivilized for hundreds of years because of the failure to heed this “law”. If you leave any of your power laying around or fail to protect something you value, someone will notice and take action.

None of these say whoever kisses the most babies should be the ruler. :)

That being said, you should be an awesome diplomat.

Haha, true, but even if my guy continues to make all of the important decisions, word probably won't get around on that front.

Lelouch has been telling everyone what to do and that's part of the reason people disliked him originally. Even though it benefitted everyone, because he told them to do things at first, instead of asking, they disliked him. His tactics kept everyone alive though!

I think I'm going to go around talking and converting people like Kesten, Akiross and Oleg to my cause. The Fighter is with me and I feel Lelouch should visit the Town Hall regularly to make public appearances to say what he has done for the Kingdom and people within it.

I don't know how much you get to play out each role, but my plan is to make everyone love my guy enough to uprise with him against the current Queen. He makes all of the big decisions, has great Diplomacy and has everyone's best interest at heart, but just wants the power to make the difference, so will pursue the role of King still.

Also, the GM shouldn't rule against me doing these things because I would make sure no PC's would be around me, other than maybe the Fighter who is in fact the Royal Assassin, as he likes Lelouch a lot.

Kingdom needs more guards? No problem. Lelouch will visit another nation and charm/geas the King or Kings Grand Diplomat into agreeing to give our nation all of their best men. Once it's signed, unless they want to be seen as a Nation who don't uphold their word, there's nothing they can do about it. :p


Eh, I myself am sort of in the same boat as you are. Our Kingmaker group is very chaotic, it's only recently they've started letting me dictate the tactics of the group. I've always played my Wizard as willing to sacrifice himself for the good of the people, but he isn't afraid to do bad things. For instance, in the very beginning of the module, at the attack on Oleg's, I told everyone we needed to capture as many as possible, so we can try and redeem them and gain information.

We were interrogating some bandits one by one, and when one of them lied to our face about redeeming himself (several of us made Sense Motive, GM told us he rolled a 1) the players got a little antsy and unsure of what to do. We had threatened him with hanging, and set him up on a stool with a rope near by. No one actually intended to use it, and they were bluffing. I wasn't.

When I found him lieing to me, I put the rope around his neck and asked him again, I made my Sense Motive, and he was still lieing. I stabbed him in the gut with a dagger, and kicked the stool out and let him hang. Then I brought out the next prisoner and proceeded to ask him questions. They were a lot more helpful after that as they watched their buddy bleed and choke.


On the flip-side, my Wizard has secret stash of money that he uses to craft and sells, then gives the profits to a random family in the village (keeping only enough to continue this cycle of charity). He has contacts that let him know who is hurting the most, and proceeds to do what he can to make their lives easier. Such has casting spells to fix broken items, clean up houses, mend clothing, buy new food or items etc.

He's regularly seen helping build things for the town, and running the market to get the people what they need, when they need it.

At the same time, my Wizard is very much so an intellectual. He's got a lot of Knowledge skills, and I plan to try an emulate a magical Leonardo DaVinci by inventing a lot of things. He actually engineered our castle (we used the Stag Lords castle, turns out you get to build a castle for half BP if using the Stag Lord's fortress and you build it in half time), the towns building's, over saw construction, and set up the city watch. He organized the taxes to the point the city is very wealthy, negotiates treaties, and doing all this while researching spells, crafting items for the party, adventuring, and defending the town (even dieing once to do it!).

Lot of work for the Grand Diplomat.


There is a pre-determined incident in Book 2, however, that turned the entire population against me. My character has only used 1 Necromancy spell in his life, and he's never cast it in front of people. The spell was Ray of Enfeeblement, and he used it to drain the strength out of the enemy at the Erastil Temple.

Our town had a random encounter of a Troll attack. My Wizard was the only one capable of finishing off the Trolls (there were rumors of Trolls, so I prepped a lot of Acid and Fire, including Acid Splash). So the townspeople watched as I conjured forth arrows made of acid, fireballs, spheres of flame that rolled around under my control, and other such flashy spells. But after the scenario I mentioned, somehow my character is referred to as a Necromancer by the commoners. Don't really know how that works. They all think I Animate Dead, suck the souls of people and Curse those I dislike.


If you want to get one over on the King and over-throw the Sorceress, make sure to mention to the people the River Freedoms-specifically, the Fifth Freedom:

Slavery is an Abomination wrote:

Nothing is so secure in the River Kingdoms as freedom for escaped slaves. Unlike Andorens, Riverfolk won’t leave their homes to free slaves, but a runaway in the River Kingdoms is a slave no more.

Some estimates say that one-third of the Riverfolk alive today are escaped slaves or descendants of slaves. Riverfolk welcome thousands of escaped slaves to all kingdoms each year, to fill ranks in armies and agriculture. Escaped slaves are usually the fiercest proponents of the River Freedoms, as these conventions are the first taste of freedom in their new lives.

Because of this freedom, Hellknights of the Order of the Chain and other slave-takers cannot operate openly here, and any Andoren Eagle Knight can dispel most Riverfolk’s natural distrust of strangers by showing her insignia—and get a free drink and a barn to sleep in.

Depending on the local custom, this abolition can extend to indentured servitude. Spellcasters are warned to be circumspect when summoning monsters in the River Kingdoms, lest their magic be misinterpreted.

Considering the Fifth Freedom is the second only to the Sixth Freedom, your Sorceress should be very wary of Summoning any creatures where the people can see. Rumors that the Sorceress is a Summoner and binds creatures to her will, would surely create a scandal possibly have her removed, and the people turning to you. After all, when you ordered the Stag Lord to murder, you were upholding the Sixth Freedom. The Stag Lord couldn't keep what he held, and so he lost it.

I should mention, my GM is slightly biased against my character. I titled myself a "Magical and Mundane Engineer" and this made him all sniffy. He's an electrician by trade, and my own Dad is a Master Welder (one of the foremost experts in Welding in Alaska) and so I've lived with and spent time with a lot of people in the oil field, construction, manual labor etc. One thing they all have in common?

Every one of them hates Engineers.

For instance, my character has Craft/Profession Carpentry, Blacksmithing, Weapons, Armor, Bows and Knowledge Engineering. We were trying to repair a wagon to haul some goods we found, but when I said I can fix it, he told me that since I'm an Engineer, all I can do is draw a picture. The Ranger is a professional wood carver, and the GM deemed him knowledgeable enough to fix the wagon, while I, the guy who took all the Craft/ and Knowledge skills to fix this exact problem, could only draw a picture.

I was not very happy and nearly tore up my character sheet and left.

Yea, that's understandable. I was tempted to get my character to leave because of this, but I have options on the table and so I'll use them.

In regards to magic, everyone knows Lelouch controls people to do his bidding, but he hasn't once turned on the civilians or helpless. He protects them and uses his commands as they're invaluable for controlling the tide of battle. They prevent loyal Guards and Knights from risking their lives as much, by turning the enemies on one another. The GM however, ruled that the civilians see this as Tyranical behaviour and would fear having someone like that in power.

The Sorceress/Queen has only done things to aid others as well, except where Lelouch drops what he's doing as soon as an ally is in danger (to heal them and sacrifice his more favoured enchanting abilities for healing spells), the Sorceress saw Lelouch go down agains the Stag Lord and made no attempt to search through his belongings for a healing potion to make him conscious once more. She hides and summons from afar where as Lelouch leads from the back, but runs into the thick of things when he needs to aid his allies, knowing the dangers are just as likely to kill him.

He does this without a second thought.

Have you got a list of the Freedom's at all by the way? I'd love to have Lelouch take a trip to the Town Hall to put doubt in the mind of all civilians in regards to the new Queen, stating that Lelouch has kept to the 6th Freedom (which I don't know in full. I only know as much as you've stated).

I'll also be aiming to get Breastplate of Command with the Determination property and a Cape of the Mountebank, so I can teleport to the Town Guard at will, where I would get them to hunt down the Assassin (in case of anymore Assassination attempts) in the location I teleported from.

I have things planned. :p

Yeah, there is a copy on the Pathfinder Wiki, but it's incomplete, it's missing info from the book they were published in.

Here they are posted in full. They're definitely a very interesting look on universal laws that apply to all men.

Ah wow, thanks very much.

Do you know what book that's from? I'm guessing it's official? The GM only takes note of officially licensed products. :)

Yup, it's official. Guide to the River Kingdoms is a Paizo product more-or-less specifically designed to give some background on the River Kingdoms for the Kingmaker AP. It even mentions the Six River Freedoms in the product description.


I'm tempted to turn all of the NPC's onto my side, make the Civilians hate the Queen and get to them to all join me to build my own Kingdom from the place I originally wanted (the Stag Lord's Fort).

The party didn't want to be based there due to the Undead, but I saw it as a base of Operations and felt we could build walls to hold the Undead and keep the living area separate.

See what happens, but I'll treat the Town Hall as an official Court, will turn up with the Six River Freedom's (I'd know them being an Orlovsky Noble) and say something like "May I present you with the Laws of the Six River Freedom's?", pull them out, read them to the public (or get someone else to so I'm not making it up) and then compare my own actions to the Queens.

I mean last encounter the Sorceress kept creating Magic Missiles which wasn't a problem, but in front of Oleg's and in the Stag Lord's Fort, she used her Summoning in front of all of us, the now dead Bandits, Oleg and Svetlana.

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I would advise against directly comparing you, to the Sorceress. The GM is going to rule against you, it seems, regardless of what you do.

Instead, at the next town meeting, ask each person to give testimony, or something similar. Maybe have them elect a few civilian leaders to take comment and concerns to you, as one of the city leaders, to deal with.

For instance, post the freedoms on the wall, and then have people ask some questions related to the freedoms. Make sure you aren't the one posting, and instead, some lackey you have on your side. Make it appear as if though it was a town survey, so the people can feel empowered to have the right to change the government if they choose. Despite the fact you are manipulating them to change the Government how you choose.


Say What You Will, I Live Free:
The freedom to speak is not the same as freedom from consequences of speech. Outsiders, drunkards, and fools are the only ones who vocally invoke this freedom. All others respect it, and live with it accordingly.

Still, criticism of government is more common here than in other lands. Cruel despots occasionally get an earful from their subjects, and the wise ones do not harshly punish such vocal rabble. In the River Kingdoms, subjects are earned by withstanding criticism rather than suppressing it. Pride sometimes intervenes, but a long-lasting lord is one who lets tongues wag.

This freedom is especially tantalizing for bards and anyone using charm magic. No one attempts to limit a spellcaster’s speech, and a silence spell is a suspicious abrogation of rights.

Have this posted as a description: Say What You Will, I Live Free! All men and women are entitled to their freedom of speech. Do not fear the repercussions of speaking out against your Leaders! You have the Right to have your criticisms, praise, and concerns to be heard! Speak freely, and fear not harsh consequences!

Then ask a question: Do you feel oppressed by the government? Are you afraid of speaking your mind? Has anyone tried to stop your from speaking? Let us know, and we will solve your issues if you so desire!

Oathbreakers Die:
The flip side of free speech in the River Kingdoms is the gravity of oath-breaking. Petty liars are common, but in a land where tomorrow can bring a gang of mercenaries, the people in charge must know whom they can trust. Common oaths include “I swear by the Sellen,” “May Hanspur take my sons,” and “My freedom is my bond.”

Riverfolk who undertake oaths of this nature keep them, or die trying. This attitude trickles down to business transactions, but can ironically make things more difficult— it’s hard to get a Riverfolk trader to fully commit to anything. Standard contracts contain a “Gyronna clause” which voids a contract in case of unforeseen calamity. This would seem a perfect dodge for scoundrels, but associating with Gyronna is the worst omen a Riverfolk trader can invoke. No one deals with a trader who admits aff liction by Gyronna, lest the association rub off.

Have this posted: Oathbreakers Die! A person is only as good as his word. If a person makes a promise, they must try to keep that promise at all costs, or die trying! Do not make promise lightly, as your neighbors will expect that promise to be kept, no matter the consequences.

Then ask questions. Have we kept our promises? Do you feel we haven't? Are their any claims we made that we can't prove? Do you feel our word is valuable? Let us know of your concerns!

Walk Any Road, Float Any River:
This freedom implies no safety while traveling, especially from the local lord. It merely prevents lords from blocking land and water travel, or charging tolls for passing (except for non-Riverfolk). Of course, any ruler who doesn’t want people on his roads can bar them without erecting a single block—threats, bribes, political pressure, or hiring “bandits” are just as effective.

However, in practice, it means no lord can take his or her people for granted. Most Riverfolk do not leave their homes for anything but essential travel, no matter who is in charge (and poor Riverfolk usually have nowhere else to go), but they might still move to a new kingdom if their lord is abusive. This escape is rarely necessary. A lord who wants a functioning kingdom knows not to treat subjects too harshly, or the best ones will disappear, leaving a half-empty kingdom behind.

Post this up: Walk Any Road, Float Any River The freedom to travel is a sacred one in the River Kingdoms. No Man or Woman has the right to impede movement, whatever the cause! The Lords of the Land cannot take their people for granted, they must earn your respect, as you have the Right to choose to live there or not!

Have we impeded your movement? Do you feel forced to live here? Do you feel safe? Are we taking you for granted? Are we abusing you? We can't help unless we know your plights. Please tell us!

Courts Are for Kings:
Buried midway down the list is one that undergirds them all: law within the River Kingdoms is malleable, and the rulers of a kingdom do as they wish. In their lands, one must obey. Whether a visitor is a commoner or a neighboring king, all are subject to a lord’s law within his own territory, and anyone who disobeys must be prepared for punishment or a declaration of war.

As a result, rulers seldom visit each other directly. Intermediaries do the talking, even when lords are scant miles away. When face-to-face negotiations occur, the monarchs often take great pains to protect their own sovereignty, even going so far as to set up camp tents on shared borders, talking across a rope line hung with pennants from both kingdoms. The major exception is the yearly Outlaw Council, where the meeting hall is considered politically neutral.

Courts Are For Kings! No one is exempt from the law, even foreign rulers. All must obey the laws of the land, regardless of the person infringing them. No one is above the law.

Do you feel this is untrue? Have you seen anyone abusing their station? Is anyone excluding themselves from punishment from the law? Tell us so Justice can be dealt!

Slavery is an Abomination:
Nothing is so secure in the River Kingdoms as freedom for escaped slaves. Unlike Andorens, Riverfolk won’t leave their homes to free slaves, but a runaway in the River Kingdoms is a slave no more.

Some estimates say that one-third of the Riverfolk alive today are escaped slaves or descendants of slaves. Riverfolk welcome thousands of escaped slaves to all kingdoms each year, to fill ranks in armies and agriculture. Escaped slaves are usually the fiercest proponents of the River Freedoms, as these conventions are the first taste of freedom in their new lives.

Because of this freedom, Hellknights of the Order of the Chain and other slave-takers cannot operate openly here, and any Andoren Eagle Knight can dispel most Riverfolk’s natural distrust of strangers by showing her insignia—and get a free drink and a barn to sleep in.

Depending on the local custom, this abolition can extend to indentured servitude. Spellcasters are warned to be circumspect when summoning monsters in the River Kingdoms, lest their magic be misinterpreted.

Slavery Is An Abomination! All Men, and all Women have the right to Freedom in the River Kingdoms. You are a slave NO MORE once you cross into our borders! No Man, No Woman, No King or Noble, Wizard or Priest, Soldier or Thief has the right to shackle, and enslave you! Slavery, IS AN ABOMINATION!

Are you being forced against your will? Is someone enslaving you? Have you seen someone binding others, creatures or people, to go against their nature? Have you seen spell casters binding living beings into slavery? Tell us so we may free such those that have been enslaved!

You Have What You Hold:
In contrast to many other civilizations on Golarion, this freedom draws a moral distinction between robbery and mere stealing. Taking something by force is considered acceptable, even begrudgingly praiseworthy. Burglary, on the other hand, is punishable under common law. The difference is in allowing a victim the ability to resist, the opportunity to face his or her robber, and to plan for repossession if so desired. This allows for a rough honesty, letting Riverfolk know and face their enemies.

You Have What You Hold! You have the right to confront your attacker. To be a thief in the night is a dishonorable attack. Don't be a coward, if you want something, then take it. But you must allow the other to defend them-self, no matter the object you desire. Honesty is a founding point of our lives, if you are not honest, then you have no right to be here.

Is someone being dishonest? Are they disallowing your right to defend yourself? Is the government oppressing you? Tell us so we may solve your problems!


By having such a survey, and manipulating the questions, you can draw as much attention to the Sorceress as you can, while putting as much good light on yourself as possible. Try to give as many examples or questions that put a negative light on the Sorceress as you can, so you can get what you want.

After all, You Have What You Hold.

Grand Lodge

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redcelt32 wrote:

LOL... sounds like the GM decided who he wanted to be king. TBH, I would not be happy if NPCs got to pick the ruler of the kingdom. It is not called president maker, its called Kingmaker. However that being said, leaders who are elected because they are nice typically have a short rule, at least in my world. To wit:

“The world is built by killers” – The Hound

“You have what you hold” -The first River Freedom. The Stolen Lands have been uncivilized for hundreds of years because of the failure to heed this “law”. If you leave any of your power laying around or fail to protect something you value, someone will notice and take action.

None of these say whoever kisses the most babies should be the ruler. :)

That being said, you should be an awesome diplomat.

me neither. Friggin npcs :-)

Awesome, Tels! :D

I've got a lot to do in game. It may take several in game years to accomplish what Lelouch wants, but with a bit of luck, if he survives, it will get there. :p

It's not a desire to become King. It's a necessity for Lelouch. He will not stop trying, but he won't make it obvious either. He'll just make a lot of public appearances, spread propaganda anonymously and encourage people to go directly to him whenever they have concerns.

He will make himself look like a Hero to the public and has no intentions to wrong the public, but he'll use them to reach his goals.

He'll do nothing but good deeds and "act" friendly towards everyone.

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