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Gunslinger being countered by the GM


Advice

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Hi folks!
We're playing the Carrion Crown adventure path and I have a gunslinger as a character. Somehow my GM was pised off, after I hit level 5 and startetd dealing some decent damage.
When I scored a crit against some golem (in book 2 of the AP) while full attacking (Rapid Shot and Hasted) I dealt some 120 dmg.
That really did it for the GM. He cried out, he would never allow gunslinger in any of his campaigns again, that the class was absolutely overpowered. I told him that I needed to invest two feats to make full attacks, while almost any other class and weapon could do so freely (hint, Bowfighter) and I still had a 15% chance of misfire on each shot (1-3, musket with paper cartridges). As well as dealing damage is the only point in a gunslinger and I could easily build a barbarian, that could reach damage scores as high, when dealing a crit. He didn't listen to my arguments but at least he didn't ask me to change character.
But since then the touch ACs of all our enemies are mysteriously high. (For example the final boss of Trial Of The Beast, some crazy construct, suddenly came along with AC 29 and touch AC 20. It almost wiped our group and I just kept spamming Startling Shots, so the others had a chance to hit.) Especially our casters have problems now, since they have much lower To Hit scores and miss their touch spells all the time. My hit chances are now roughly the same if I would be using a bow.
I don't know the monsters in the AP (we're now in book 3 Broken Moon), but I have the feeling that he makes up his own creations (He has any right to do that as a GM, but I feel countered out). Crazy demon-spellcaster-werewolves with DR 10 or 15/cold iron (guess what kind of bullets are not available) with more than 70 HP that are FULLY HEALED each round if not killed in one round. And even then he was pissed about my feat Clustered Shots.
Now he has sent me an email that asks me to send him my character build so that he can be "better prepared with our opponents in the future". Don't get me wrong, as a GM he has any right to check out my character, but that mail just sent shivers down my spine.
I am on the brink of trashing my character and building some Archer type or Barbarian as this is getting less and less fun for me. Combat is the only spotlight fo the gunslinger and the GM constantly tries to take me out of the game.
What is your opinion?
What should I do?

Chers,
Frosty

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

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Quote:
What should I do?

Talk to your GM, see if you can come up with some kind of compromise. Maybe switch to a different class.

People on the internets can't fix a problem between you and the guy across the table.

Osirion

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Talk to him, Frosty. The goal, after all, is for everyone to have fun, and that includes the GM and the players. If the party can single round all the bosses, it makes it lame for everyone (especially the GM), but on the other hand, if every combat is a nail-biter that reduces half the party to negs, than the struggle can become tedious.

There is a happy medium. Talk to your GM, tell him your side of the story and let him tell you his. In my experience, that's generally the best way to deal with this problem.

Also realize that the gunslinger's ability to hit touch AC most of the time is something that wasn't taken into account when Carrion Crown was written (plus that no adventure can take all classes into account). The GM, IMO, should tailor a pre-written adventure to fairly challenge the party.

Finally, realize that the line between and exciting combat and a TPK is often less than a hair's breadth.

EDIT:DERN IT! NINJA'D!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Imo, you should voice your opinion. I actually had an altercation with one of my players who got really pissy and such today over nothing. Not only that but she JUST announced HUGE plans that screwed our group. After poor wording from me, she starts with the "Idk if I really wanna come if that's how you're gonna be" etc.

Which is when I made this point: Pathfinder is a story. The DM is the setting and the players are the characters. A setting without characters is just an open field with some sad and lonely Goblins (though they would be in bushes, caves and trees but that's beside the point). Characters without a setting devolved into debates and murder in an empty void. Neither is very good for long.

A GM has every right to see the characters and tweak enemies as he sees fit for the balance of the campaign. BUT, it isn't his campaign. It's made BY both the players and GM and FOR both parties as well. If he's screwing over your character and the party, call him on it. Force him to address it. If he's ruining your characters life, you have every reason to take a stand and demand better.

The campaign is for both sides and you have just as much a right to enjoy it as he does. And if he's making it less enjoyable, he needs to do something about that. What that something is, is up to your group. It could be as small a thing as rebalancing the enemies. Or maybe he just isn't suited to being a GM. Some people are better at certain things. Namely, some people just make for poor GMs on certain topics.

If it's worse than that, perhaps he doesn't fit into your group. It's tough but sometimes someone just doesn't fit in, get along or belong. If they bring everyone down, then maybe they don't belong in that specific group. It's hard but I've had to leave groups of have the GM leave because they didn't fit in or make a good GM. Other times, they caused issues, lacked judgement or simply didn't get along. It's never easy but sometimes it's for the best. That is of course extreme and assuming he is unwilling to address these issues.

That said, I would bring it up separately with both him (to try to address it) and the other players (to get their thoughts and opinions on the matter as well as to discuss the overall state of the group due to these circumstances).


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In all honesty it sounds like you have a GM who isn't mature enough to handle the role.

1: Doesn't understand the idea of glass cannon mono task characters are only good at one thing, dealing damage. Occasionally they do a lot of damage.

2: Actually goes out of his way to counter a single player. All this does it makes life dangerous for other players not targeted, and piss off both the player (nobody likes to feel singled out) and the GM (because he is failing)

3: Didn't understand a class before he allowed it. The fact that he doesn't understand the abilities you are using to the point of requiring an audit to tailor future encounters means he is playing catchup on his rules.

4: He is playing on Tilt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilt_%28poker%29 His anger about his lack of control is forcing him into a largely irrational state where he believes that he must go out of his way to humiliate a player to the point of ruining his entire play groups enjoyment.

As for what to do: Write down a list of the things that you have a problem with, more comprehensive than this one. Highlight areas where you feel that you and/or the party are being treated unfairly. Show this list to the GM, with an explanation that your are not enjoying the game as it stands presently because of these issues.

If the GM is unwilling to take this as a learning moment and make adjustments and tighten up his game, seriously consider finding another playgroup. A GM when shown evidence of making the game unfun (he primary job is the make the game fun for everybody) who doesn't do something about it is unlikely to get better (if fact might make things worse if his nose is shoved in it, diplomacy is something you should look into maxing irl). You are already a target, and are all ready not having fun, so you have nothing really to lose for bringing up these points. Its just a game, and if you don't have fun, don't bother being a puppet for some persons power fantasies.


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A lot of the new classes have much less spread between the median example that a typical player who makes one trots out and the top of the line optimized version than do the older classes.

This means that you may easily be outside the GM's and your party's acceptable envelope of optimization. This is a problem, especially if your GM is a gamist, which it sounds from your description that he is, or even a narrativist (narrativists in particular FREQUENTLY get seriously torqued off if you one-round a BBEG, especially if you make a habit of it).

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, I a mrunning Carrion Crown right now and I can speak for GMs out there that until book 5 most monsters and "Bosses" we're horribly built. It was not unusual for them to be one-shot killed on a regular basis- even after I gave every NPCS max hit points.

If the group is Min/Maxed this is a tough campaign to run. The bad guys just can't stand up in a fight.

Book 5 has the toughest monsters in the game. But again, depending on the group and how the GM plays them the bad guys can be wiped out quickly. I just happened to study up on every aspect of them I could and realized they are almost unkillable- almost. The party figured out how... The only way I figured to kill them too.

Book 6 is easier than book 5 and needs a lot of reworking if the bad guys are to stand up in a fight with an optimized party.

Honestly, I love the concept behind Carrion Crown, but I think in execution it is one of the worst ones done.

So yeah, I can see him getting irritated, but it isn't the Gunslinger's fault. I get irritated with my party and have to remember it isn't their fault.

Once I went through and started rewriting all the encounters to make better sense and better deigned bad guys, it got better. Things became a challenge again, sometimes.

So yeah talk to him, have him email me if he wants, and I'll share my rewrites as I can. But really it is the campaign and not the character.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ok first of all you are playing a musket master right? (i can't think of no other way to reload early two handed firearms as a free action)
If i am correct why you say that you spended two feats for that? It's one bonus feat from the archetype, the ability from the archetype and by using paper cartiges.

Now i am not sure about what golem you are talking about but i don't think that there is a golem in the 2nd book with AC 29 so he buffed it, which i have no problem with but how in name of everything that's good and holy did the golem's AC ended up 29 while his touch AC was 20? I can't think of how this can be done with a golem (golems usually have high-ish AC but very very low touch AC).

Now on the gunslinger, assuming you built him correctly and didn't do any mistake, isn't more overpowered than any of the arhcers are.
120 damage on a full attack, with haste and with a crit doesn't sound like too much damage to me.

There is a chance that yuor DM has an asthetic problem with the gunslinger and he trying to find excuses to make you play another class. There are a lot of people who don't like firearms (myself included) but if that's the case with him then he should have said so in the beggining.


The nigh-auto confirm x4 crit from range is the thing that makes most GMs go on high alert.

An archer could've done it without a chance to blow up his bow.


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Bows don't blow up.
Also, the ammunition is cheaper.

Grand Lodge

And while Golems have electricity immunity, Magi can do some HORRIBLE things with Shocking grasp attacks with their weapons.

Lets take a d6 scimitar and crit with Shock grasp at level 5.

Its 2d6 for the scimitar (before bonuses) and 10d6 for the shocking grasp.

Thats not LIKELY to pump out 120pts but 70-80 isn't unexpected.

I'm just gonna echo what the others said - talk with the guy but be prepared for him, initially, to be defensive and prehaps a little agressive until he works out you want to fix the game (I am assuming thats your goal).

It may take a need for you to change characters.

Oh - and I LOVE musket masters for sheer damage dealing :) Hit D12 plus bonuses, Hit D12 plus bonuses, Hit D12 plus bonuses... crit? 4D12! Bonuses x 4 are just evil if you've got the feat that lets you add Dex to Damage.

Grand Lodge

This is really a problem between you and the GM. Seriously. I'm sensing some bad feelings here, and there's really nothing we can do about it. Pathfinder is about the interaction between players and GM telling an interesting story together. It's quite true that Gunslingers can be very strong and require the GM to really adjust tactics. In fact, the rules state that a GM can simply disallow all guns in their campaign if they feel they can't handle the extra rules and tactics baggage that a gunslinger brings.

The Adventure Paths, as far as I know, are written in mind with the belief that the players are playing Core Classes from the Core Rulebook with not much else added, using a 15-point buy system. I've heard from people that they're very well written, but easily breakable by a good enough party. It does not surprise me at all that a Gunslinger, who targets enemies via touch attacks from a long range, could throw a Paizo Adventure Path for a loop when they wrote the scenario, only taking into account Barbarians, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Fighters, Monks, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, Sorcerers, and Wizards. Seriously, while I do believe your GM may be overreacting, you have to understand it from his point of view - Gunslingers are not overpowered, but they are just so different in their tactics and abilities and you may have angered him by basically making a character that, with the premade adventure he's been given, he has little power to counteract with the tools he's been given, other than to change the encounters himself.

In the end, while at my table, Gunslingers are totally cool (they're such awesome flavor! I love 'em. And they require attack rolls. Seriously. As far as I'm concerned, you're not doing anything more overpowered than a Wizard casting save-or-die spells or no-save spells of awesome), you should probably just confront your GM frankly, and ask him "do you just want me to make another character?" Seriously, talking to him directly and having a frank and honest conversation about the situation, and how to make it better, will be the absolute most effective thing you can do, rather than trying to talk with people on a forum asking how to confront the challenge of convincing a GM you want to do things your way in "his" world. And I'm not trying to bash on your GM either. I think you really probably just threw him for a loop, and he isn't entirely sure how to deal with the situation other than by just overextending the GM's Right to Control Everything in a Campaign.


This seems like a case where the player has a better grasp of system mastery than the GM. I would suggest changing characters, and running the next game, and teach him as kindly as possible more about the game. If you can't take the direct approach then do so in a round-a-bout manner.


I see several issues that probably contributed to the problem.

1. The GM has never seen the character sheets and the players didn't volunteer them. In my games, the character sheets stay with me. How can a GM possibly balance the encounters without knowledge of the group's capabilities?

2. Clearly the GM does not have the experience and/or tactical knowledge to rush/swarm a ranged combatant. If the monsters are played well, the Gunslinger should be looking at a -4 penalty due to cover and a -4 penalty for target in melee (unless he has Precise Shot) for any full-attack. If you want a clear shot, you have to move. Maybe the GM is more about story than table-top combat tactics.

3. The character build is a serious competitor in the DPR Olympics. Unless the rest of the party is power-gaming too, I'm betting there are a few players getting marginalized by the Gunslinger. If not, they have the wrong GM.

4. They are playing pre-gen encounters. No matter how well they are written, there is always a good chance that the encounters will be off for any given group. It goes back to #1. You have to know the group to build good encounters.

To the OP - your character build and your GM are a mismatch. Either sit down together and find a remedy or go your separate ways. The answer probably includes both of you making some changes.


I just had a talk with my GM and asked him: "What is the exact problem with my gunslinger?" "Touch attack."
He underestimated the power of the gunslinger when allowing it into his campaign, he said. Especially the pairing of touch attacks with high damage weapons like the musket (D12+ DEX+ Deadly Shot). He stated that he did not want to counter my char but tries to build encounters that are challenging for the group. Since the encounters in Carrion Crown are poorly balanced, he put in different monsters, applied templates or built some on his own. He does not want the one-round-killed, especially not by me all the time. As I heard between the lines, our fighter had also been nagging about my damage output behind my back. Calling my char overpowered, since he could never reach DPS like me. (On one hand he might be a bit correct but I think his character is poorly built, too.)
I offered to change the character, but my GM refused. He just wanted to check my build, to see where my soft spots are, so he could build the encounters more challenging - apart from raising the Touch AC to the sky. He hinted that now the opponents will focus a lot more on me. (That's what he usually does ;-)) Ah well...
He is not a bad GM. He puts on a great show, acts out remarkable NPCs and prepares a hell of an adventure, taking the AP and throwing in heaps of ideas to fix logical flaws, present the story more polished. He is a great narrativist, but I guess he lacks tactical finesse and knowledge of the rules. Maybe he saw my char "ruining" his story.
I told him that it is okay for me to have more challenging encounters, but I don't want to feel countered. That I am quite a one trick pony focused on combat. He has to turn different screws if he wants to fix combat and not make it boring for me and some of the others. (But I will never resort to dealing as low damage as the fighter :-P)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The fighter shouldn't be nagging he should have a better character, surely a max optimized two handed fighter can't well reach a fully optimized gunslinger but then i don't see (from the damage you told us) your character as fully optimized.
Did he explain to you how in world a golem had that high touch AC and his regular AC was only 9 points higher?
And no the class isn't overpowered and no there is no way to underistamate the gunslinger if you read him and the firearms rules, it's most likely that your DM didn't read the whole thing and now he is in for a treat.
If he doesn't want his encounters one round killed then he shouldn't put single enemies against the group.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

He raised the touch AC by 12 points????

The Gunslinger is an odd duck in a group, but it can be feat intensive AND expensive to dolly up (gear, weapons, and enchanting said firearms)


As a GM and a player, I can honestly say mistakes get made, that's the joys of our being human. Good job in talking to your DM, that truly is the hardest part.
It sounds like he very much so underestimated the class (let's not crap on a guy who in this day and age made an assumption and was wrong) and has since tried several ways to balance things out, through extensive trial and error. Kudos to him, too bad it didn't work out well, but at least in the end he decided to just look at YOUR character, in an effort to keep everyone happy (b&#+@ing fighter).
It blows me away how people can play a certain way, and think any other play style is wrong, when having fun is the ONLY right thing to do.


My DM had a similar problem with my touch AC but he was an adult about it.
you can have him check out this thread http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5udh?Why-play-anything-else-but-touch-attack-ty pe#11

my DM stil grumbles about Touch AC and it is a running joke about his hatred for Touch AC. but he has calmed down about it.


Nachtfrost wrote:

I just had a talk with my GM and asked him: "What is the exact problem with my gunslinger?" "Touch attack."

He underestimated the power of the gunslinger when allowing it into his campaign, he said. Especially the pairing of touch attacks with high damage weapons like the musket (D12+ DEX+ Deadly Shot). He stated that he did not want to counter my char but tries to build encounters that are challenging for the group. Since the encounters in Carrion Crown are poorly balanced, he put in different monsters, applied templates or built some on his own. He does not want the one-round-killed, especially not by me all the time. As I heard between the lines, our fighter had also been nagging about my damage output behind my back. Calling my char overpowered, since he could never reach DPS like me. (On one hand he might be a bit correct but I think his character is poorly built, too.)
I offered to change the character, but my GM refused. He just wanted to check my build, to see where my soft spots are, so he could build the encounters more challenging - apart from raising the Touch AC to the sky. He hinted that now the opponents will focus a lot more on me. (That's what he usually does ;-)) Ah well...
He is not a bad GM. He puts on a great show, acts out remarkable NPCs and prepares a hell of an adventure, taking the AP and throwing in heaps of ideas to fix logical flaws, present the story more polished. He is a great narrativist, but I guess he lacks tactical finesse and knowledge of the rules. Maybe he saw my char "ruining" his story.
I told him that it is okay for me to have more challenging encounters, but I don't want to feel countered. That I am quite a one trick pony focused on combat. He has to turn different screws if he wants to fix combat and not make it boring for me and some of the others. (But I will never resort to dealing as low damage as the fighter :-P)

It's good that you can talk candidly with your GM, because that's pretty much the solution for every GM/player conflict thread that pops up on the boards.

I recommend your GM look through some of the threads on these forums that give advice on coping with ranged combat as a GM. Ranged combat is very powerful in Pathfinder, and a dedicated archer (ftr, pal, ran, probably zen archer, take your pick) would even be outshining your gunslinger. The gunslinger isn't an overpowered class by any stretch of the imagination. It does consistent damage against touch AC that should be outdone by dedicated martial classes who have higher overall attack bonuses (through favored enemy, smite, weapon training, etc) and who hit harder on each individual hit.

If there is an unhappy fighter player who consistently feels outdone in combat, that's a twofold problem. An unhappy player isn't a good thing for anyone involved in the game, and when anyone plays a fighter they tend to want to shine in combat (because fighters can't really do much else). Is he getting outdone because he can't get full attacks off while your gunslinger sits there and unloads on the enemies? If so, that's a problem of encounter design which favors ranged attackers.

If he's getting outdone because his build is really poor (and fighters do need some forethought going into their build for feat synergy if they want to be good) relative to the rest of the party, perhaps the GM could help the fighter's player retool his character (or allow other players to assist the fighter in retooling his build to perform the way he wants it to). It may be something your GM wants to consider, because customizing encounters to challenge your gunslinger is only treating a symptom and won't make the fighter happy (let alone the rest of the group when they eventually get TPKd).

Sczarni

I have a rapid firing level 7 pistolero that is dual wielding with clustered shots and shooting from BOTH barrels on his double barrel pistols each round...enemies aren't all mindless. After one goes down they quickly see who the main threat is...

Osirion

Unless you have another play group or will GM the campaign yourself retire the character. One other option is to talk to the GM and work on balancing your character.

Sczarni

Just to clarify my post...your class is perfectly balanced...you do a ton of damage...but you are a one trick pony with a 10-20% chance that trick literally blows up in your face.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

After looking at the AC of the final monster in TotB...yea, you're being explicitly countered. Being able to hit a barn is only slightly easier than that guy.

I'm not even sure how you got 120 damage with just three attacks and one crit. Even a max damage crit should only be about 76 damage at that level, unless your stats are super high and you have a better than +1 musket.

The thing with the gunslinger is that you are almost always going to be hit, but you really won't be doing a ton of damage compared to an archer. Once they get manyshot, the archer pulls ahead and basically stays ahead.

The only reason you're able to make 3 attacks per round is that musket master deed. Maybe every now and then you could use up that last grit point?


Don't touch attacks bypass DR? So not having silver bullets doesn't mean anything as long as the target is in the first range increment you do full damage vs anything even DR/epic. It is kinda like a paladin smiting evil and ignoring DR.

Touch attacks and DR penetration are what make the gunslinger cool.

Sczarni

Cheapy wrote:

After looking at the AC of the final monster in TotB...yea, you're being explicitly countered. Being able to hit a barn is only slightly easier than that guy.

I'm not even sure how you got 120 damage with just three attacks and one crit. Even a max damage crit should only be about 76 damage at that level, unless your stats are super high and you have a better than +1 musket.

The thing with the gunslinger is that you are almost always going to be hit, but you really won't be doing a ton of damage compared to an archer. Once they get manyshot, the archer pulls ahead and basically stays ahead.

The only reason you're able to make 3 attacks per round is that musket master deed. Maybe every now and then you could use up that last grit point?

Many Shot is countered by adding another barrel to the gun...take a -4 to hit but you are shooting at touch AC so big woop.

At level 5 with a Double Barrel Rifle you could in theory have 3 shots (1 basic, 1 Rapid Shot, 1 Haste), and then toss in a double barrel and you have 6 bullets probably at +4/+4/+4 doing 1d12+5 damage per bullet...


Does your DM play with mass damage? The players try to optimize their characters and that sometimes makes the game unbalanced. Can any other player in your group do 120 points of damage at level 5? Try to see your DM's and groups point as well.

When I started (dm'ing) playing again after a 15 year break things like this popped up. I like your DM made adjustments as ranged touch attacks are a joke. You probably auto hit everytime like a an Alchemist? Anyways, the only way to counter that is to make the touch attacks higher or make the CR higher and that affects the entire group.

If your DM is cool, you can talk to him or her and maybe reach a compromise? Trying to kill your character is not good and that will kill the mood of any game.


I'm actually also running Carrion Crown at the moment, and there is a Musket Master in the group. We are currently in book 5, and while he is a huge damage dealer, I haven't had that much of a problem messing him up so far. The best counters that I have found are spells like Fog Cloud and any melee combatant with high dex and combat reflexes. He nearly killed himself trying to fight an air elemental at one point because it was so close he provoked a lot of AoO just trying to defend himself. I haven't taken the time to rebuild any of the encounters either, they are all as written in the book.

I can certainly understand why the DM would get frustrated with it. Seeing the Gunslinger hit a miniboss for all his health in a full attack is always disappointing. As my group has progressed, though, I have found that the problem hasn't been as bad as it was earlier in the books. Hopefully your DM will work something out without just giving everything a +10 dodge bonus to AC because why not. That's a pretty lame fix.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alex the Rogue wrote:
Does your DM play with mass damage? The players try to optimize their characters and that sometimes makes the game unbalanced. Can any other player in your group do 120 points of damage at level 5? Try to see your DM's and groups point as well.

Actually, it'd be pretty easy to hit 115 damage if we're assuming a critical hit and max damage, which I'm pretty sure is what happened here. With a scythe, a level 5 fighter with haste can hit 125 damage. 135 if he has weapon specialization.

What would be more interesting would be comparing his consistent damage. Which is probably around 17.5 damage per shot, assuming +6 dex, +1 weapon, deadly aim, and average damage. Or around 52.5 damage per round, assuming all hit, with a 15% chance per attack for it to break, meaning there's a ~39% chance of it breaking on any given full attack. About a 28% chance of it exploding during a full attack.

Compare this to a two-hander fighter, who is doing around 6 damage a swing, assuming +1 greatsword, +6 str, power attack, weapon training, and weapon spec. This is an average of 52 points of damage per round assuming all hit. With a 0% chance of breaking or exploding on an attack. The fighter will be able to hit the average CR 5 monster on a 5-7 or higher, depending on power attack and if he has furious focus. With furious focus, the gunslinger will have a 10% better chance of hitting on the first attack, and only a 20% better if there is no furious focus.

So, is that 20% better chance worth the 28% chance of your firearm exploding in one round? Or a 39% chance of it becoming broken, requiring at least a move action on the following turn?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Honestly, my main worry about a gunslinger in carrion crown is just how damn superstitious everyone is, and how loud the guns are.

Andoran RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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Paraxis wrote:

Don't touch attacks bypass DR? So not having silver bullets doesn't mean anything as long as the target is in the first range increment you do full damage vs anything even DR/epic. It is kinda like a paladin smiting evil and ignoring DR.

Touch attacks and DR penetration are what make the gunslinger cool.

Touch attacks from weapons don't bypass DR. Touch attacks from spells, splash weapons, etc. usually do.


I haven't tweaked the character as much as I could. I did not dump my stats (exc. CHA 8); we used 20 points buy. I am using a single-barrel musket and will stick to it. So for a gunslinger I think it is quite fair.

As for the 120 dmg: Maybe my introducing statement on the firsat post was misleading, since I was level 6 at that time. (But ever since I hit level 5, getting dex bonus to my attacks, the DM looked frowning upon my damage output) I was hasted and rapid shooting, full atacking for 4 attacks. Hitting all, 1 of them crit. Damge: +1 musket (explicitly adding +1 to damage), +5 dmg from DEX, +4 from Deadly Aim, +1 Point Blank damage. That's 77 total in bonus damage, adding some above average rolled 7D12.

So far I have only scored 2 crtitical hits in this campaign (20 isn't that good) and wasted countless rounds cleaning the sooty barrel of my gun. Strangely the DM seems not to complain, when that happens...


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Quote:
Honestly, my main worry about a gunslinger in carrion crown is just how damn superstitious everyone is, and how loud the guns are.

Heh, yeah. We already played that out a bit. I used the musket in the starting scene on the Harrowstone Graveyard to intimidate the mob and settle the dispute without resorting to violence. I have been eyed suspiciously more than a coupel of times...


Actually I agree with the GM, since I got a Gunslinger in my campaign and the very same exact thing happened. I even wrote an obituary for the poor golem who got blown up a few months ago, because the situation seemed so ridiculous to me.

In my opinion, the Gunslinger is an overpowered POS class which should never have seen the light of day. It takes the component of "high AC opponents" completely out of the game and can do it all day long, if the player brought enough ammunition. The alchemist also is really too good with his touch attacks but at least runs empty very, very fast when using multiple bombs per round.

There are very few monster types which can counter the "attack on touch AC" advantage the Gunslinger has and APs don't ever build themselves around them. And lets not forget that the Gunslinger also has some mid- to high-level abilities which allow no save and can turn climactic encounters with high level opponents into a total joke. Automatic disarms, automatic knockdowns and so on.

I've let the Gunslinger in our group do his thing, we are almost finished with Carrion Crown ( crossing my fingers here that I can build in enough failsaves for the big bad there that the Gunslinger won't turn that encounter into a total joke ) but I won't allow the class anymore in future campaigns. It's completely out of whack with the other classes and not for flavor reasons, but for mechanical ones.

Sczarni

Nachtfrost wrote:

I haven't tweaked the character as much as I could. I did not dump my stats (exc. CHA 8); we used 20 points buy. I am using a single-barrel musket and will stick to it. So for a gunslinger I think it is quite fair.

As for the 120 dmg: Maybe my introducing statement on the firsat post was misleading, since I was level 6 at that time. (But ever since I hit level 5, getting dex bonus to my attacks, the DM looked frowning upon my damage output) I was hasted and rapid shooting, full atacking for 4 attacks. Hitting all, 1 of them crit. Damge: +1 musket (explicitly adding +1 to damage), +5 dmg from DEX, +4 from Deadly Aim, +1 Point Blank damage. That's 77 total in bonus damage, adding some above average rolled 7D12.

So far I have only scored 2 crtitical hits in this campaign (20 isn't that good) and wasted countless rounds cleaning the sooty barrel of my gun. Strangely the DM seems not to complain, when that happens...

Sounds fair to me. I'd sit down and just talk it out with him. Maybe point him here. And if he would like I'd be more than happy to build a level 6 Musket Master that could potentially double your out put in a round...you are a class that focuses on damage...its like getting mad at the dual wielding hasted large raging barbarian when he murders the earth...

PS-Imagine how mad he'd be if you took Clustered Shots as your next feat. =b


You are going to have one hell of a time as a getting touch AC high enough to make that part of a monster threatening with just stat block alone. Stuff like concealment, cover, and other ranged creatures that can have the wits to go prone are key in this case. If an average critter has a touch AC of 14 (within the realm of reason) with soft cover, partial concealment and dropping prone can raise their AC to 22 with a 20% miss chance against the gunslinger, yet the poorly optimized melee will have an easier time dealing with such foes once they work past any melee opposition.


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The DPR of Archer fighters will outclass the gunslinger.
They will do it farther, faster, and cheaper.
No one worries if the Archer's Bow will explode.

If you don't like guns, disallow them.
Do not allow them, then pick on the guy who uses them.


My campaign has one dedicated gunslinger, but everyone carries firearms. The NPCs use a lot of cover and concealment, and also grab the occasional gun. The party's ability to put out tonnes of damage means I can throw more at them, which is fun for me.

Still, it is the half-orc barbarian and his adamantine great axe that does most of the one-shoting. He has consistently ruined boss fights by crit'ing at the right moment. The gunslinger can't touch him for damage.

I'm also more worried about the ninja with the invisibility trick, and a bag of holding full of entanglements.


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Myself as a gm, I am a big fan of turning high damage builds back on my party. Frankly, I think shooting back at the party is considerably more mature and effective than trying to nerf their guns. (With that principle being applicable in a broader sense as well).

If your PCs are mauling your monsters and NPCs with something, don't get bent out of shape about it, COPY IT!

People (myself included) can be pretty myopic sometimes.


Well, the problem about copying it ( and, hey, I changed a bunch of "I can't hit the broad side of a barn" Monk mooks into "Mwahahaha, with ALCHEMY!" Alchemist bomb-throwers for the part of the AP I am on, so I am not averse to changing up things ) is that in the particular case of the Gunslinger, making guns widely available and a popular weapon would change up the setting considerably. And I am not going to do that. I like Golarion as it is now, with the medieval/renaissance flair, but mostly without guns and steampunk.


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It's worth mentioning that you as a player could have pulled back when you started noticing the GM was not liking how things were playing out.

Not saying its your fault, but being mindful of how powerful your character is and if you start consistently outshine other players you can avoid problems by pulling back yourself. maybe train out of one of those really good feats for something not as good ?


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Phasics wrote:

It's worth mentioning that you as a player could have pulled back when you started noticing the GM was not liking how things were playing out.

Not saying its your fault, but being mindful of how powerful your character is and if you start consistently outshine other players you can avoid problems by pulling back yourself. maybe train out of one of those really good feats for something not as good ?

Eh nerfing your own character to let the people who designed their character badly shine is pretty frustrating from a gamist perspective. Honestly I'd prefer the new character option but I enjoy writing up new characters.


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gnomersy wrote:
Phasics wrote:

It's worth mentioning that you as a player could have pulled back when you started noticing the GM was not liking how things were playing out.

Not saying its your fault, but being mindful of how powerful your character is and if you start consistently outshine other players you can avoid problems by pulling back yourself. maybe train out of one of those really good feats for something not as good ?

Eh nerfing your own character to let the people who designed their character badly shine is pretty frustrating from a gamist perspective. Honestly I'd prefer the new character option but I enjoy writing up new characters.

Well I guess you've just got to ask yourself are you just their for your own personal enjoyment or are you there to enhance the groups enjoyment including your own ?


Phasics wrote:


Well I guess you've just got to ask yourself are you just their for your own personal enjoyment or are you there to enhance the groups enjoyment including your own ?

If making the group happy stops you from being happy then there's no reason to be there in the first place.


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gnomersy wrote:
Phasics wrote:


Well I guess you've just got to ask yourself are you just their for your own personal enjoyment or are you there to enhance the groups enjoyment including your own ?
If making the group happy stops you from being happy then there's no reason to be there in the first place.

Unless you find enjoyment in playing in a happy group ;) I guess it all comes down to mindset

I personally toned down an alchemist significantly (max bombs per round was dictated by BAB so 1-3) to fit a group, but as a result the group ended up having more fun and so did I, even though I was effectively playing a nerfed character


Phasics wrote:

Unless you find enjoyment in playing in a happy group ;) I guess it all comes down to mindset

I personally toned down an alchemist significantly (max bombs per round was dictated by BAB so 1-3) to fit a group, but as a result the group ended up having more fun and so did I, even though I was effectively playing a nerfed character

There is that. Honestly I've done the same but rather than nerf my gunslinger(a glass cannon with a 30%+ chance of wasting a turn and only a 5-10% chance of critting) I opted to play a nerfed down in terms of damage(but still useful) combat Rogue/Fighter build.

For me a gunslinger already has so many drawbacks that going out of your way to gimp him out on the single thing he does well seems like a step too far.


gnomersy wrote:
Phasics wrote:

Unless you find enjoyment in playing in a happy group ;) I guess it all comes down to mindset

I personally toned down an alchemist significantly (max bombs per round was dictated by BAB so 1-3) to fit a group, but as a result the group ended up having more fun and so did I, even though I was effectively playing a nerfed character

There is that. Honestly I've done the same but rather than nerf my gunslinger(a glass cannon with a 30%+ chance of wasting a turn and only a 5-10% chance of critting) I opted to play a nerfed down in terms of damage(but still useful) combat Rogue/Fighter build.

For me a gunslinger already has so many drawbacks that going out of your way to gimp him out on the single thing he does well seems like a step too far.

Heh everyone has there limit :) as you say if your not enjoying yourself why play :)


Actually we all put strong emphasis on combat encounters. The other players are also into optimizing their characters (mage, rogue/alchemist, cleric, magus, inquisitor, paladin, fighter). But obviously not all as succesful as the magus and me (The GM also has some issues with the magus' damage output *shocking grasp* but is not able to counter him in a way like the gunslinger.)
So, no, I won't underachieve on purpose and nerf my character just because I put more thought in it than another player.

Quote:
It's worth mentioning that you as a player could have pulled back when you started noticing the GM was not liking how things were playing out.

On the one hand I understand your point of view, but on the other I just did what my character is intended for: dealing damage.

I did not use any loopholes or unclear rulings. The character was not maximized beyond any reasonable limits. [Starting STR: 10 DEX: 17+2 CON: 12 INT: 10 WIS: 15 CHA: 8]
My intention surely wasn't to trash the DM's adventure. And I had the feeling that i just kept up with the monsters he threw at us.
Huge Air Elemental, Trolls and Flesh Golems at lvl 5 party; hordes of ghosts at a lvl 2 party without magical weapons, Erynnie to fight the lvl 5 party as 3rd or 4th encounter on that given day, 2 manticores at lvl 4...
Several almost-wipes and three resurrections lie behind us now. And just as we stand a better chance in those encounters (Well, I understand that one-hitting his opponents isn't fun for him... but how often do I crit?) he acts like I broke his favourite toy... Maybe I do not like how things played out now? He keeps picking on my character class (and also the magus, that is) fueled by the fighter's player. I guess the mage's player also has his fingers in there, cause each time I deal some 50ish damage a round he utters something like "Sick" or "Overpowered". But himself has no problems throwing around maximized fireballs as an evocation specialist... Ah well, maybe I should resort to some nice base class and show him how a barbarian or fighter kicks ass.....

Sczarni

Actually there are lots of good ways to counter BOTH of you guys that doesn't involve outright neutering your damage...

DR, SR, for you low will saves, for him nets, for you obscuring mist, for hime flying, etc...

Just because you don't like someone's damage doesn't mean you just outright nerf them into the ground. Grow some GM balls and be creative not a douche.

My gunslinger I GM for does a lot of damage...guess what? He failed his Will save last night and spent 5 rounds panicked running away! Then, he couldn't make a perception check to notice the Quicklings running in and doing 1-3 damage and running back out...he's convinced the enemy is invisible!


I know this will only make things worse, but I recommend the Vital Strike tree and Devastating Strike because I'm petty and have NO qualms making things worse! :D

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