First off this is my first time gm'ing, the group decided that starting @ lvl 1 is boring so they started @ lvl 2. Also for stats they decided to roll 3d6 drop lowest add 6, because they are heros after all, and heros don't have stats below 12 (most have two 18). That is not the point, that was for information.
So how do I challenge them? what would you do to? Higher cr? Add hit points is what I did, they did not like doing 7 damage and not dropping a goblin.
More bad guys.
Try not to let them take a break to refresh abilities, keep the pace up.
Treat the party like 4th level characters with those CR's
or
Have them regenerate their ability scores (2d6+6 works) and have them start with 1st level wealth.
That's the idea. More hp, more monsters, higher CR. Mix up your encounters so they can't do the same thing all the time.
Goblins don't all have to be little shrimps. Give the boss a level or 2 of a casting class to make things challenging. Make them go into various terrain where they're at a disadvantage. A dark cave works fine for goblins, but not for the party, unless they all have darkvision, too.
Powerful characters are fun to play, and they can handle more action than "regular" heroes, so yeah, keep up the pace.
Some Dark Creepers led by a Dark Stalker might prove a challenge, and are underused IMHO. Lots of darkness at will for the bad guys. Toss a couple of mite cronies for them and darkness, then doom then getting stabbed in the dark should be fun fun fun! and they explode when you kill them!
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Traps ,such as pit traps, in dungeons without light sources are deadly for pcs who can't see them.
Higher stats and a higher starting level don't make an invincible party. Look over there character sheets and find what kind of weaknesses they have and set up your encounters to exploit those.
Split the party. They're heroes after all. They should be ok on their own(insert evil sarcastic laughter here.)
Send them against a CR 6 creature.And don't take it easy on them. Thats an epic encounter for your 'heroes'.
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When GMing, especially when it is your first time, do not let your players dictate character creation. Since you are already there though lets see what we can do.
Using creatures who ignore rough terran do to a favored enviroment can be good.
Read up on templates and see where you can apply them, Advanced Template is pretty hefty if want to design a thug leader.
Ambushes can be pretty lethal, sneaky types with poison/magic can shake things up.
One combat rule I notice GMS forgetting, possibly on purpose in some instances, is that if a character has not yet responded in combat they are Flat Footed. Can mean the differance between 20 and 16 AC so pretty significant.
Good Luck.
Shadows .... a shadow demon ,.. a "mirror of opposition" group built with their own rules ...
Entangle!!! Druids with bows!
Web! Wizards with magic missle!
Depending on how melee-oriented your group is.. Put distance between them and the opposition.
Start there and see how adaptable they are.
@d
When GMing, especially when it is your first time, do not let your players dictate character creation. Since you are already there though lets see what we can do.
Using creatures who ignore rough terran do to a favored enviroment can be good.
Read up on templates and see where you can apply them, Advanced Template is pretty hefty if want to design a thug leader.
Ambushes can be pretty lethal, sneaky types with poison/magic can shake things up.
One combat rule I notice GMS forgetting, possibly on purpose in some instances, is that if a character has not yet responded in combat they are Flat Footed. Can mean the differance between 20 and 16 AC so pretty significant.
Good Luck.
I think its just wierd/difficult on me because every time I ask for a skill check its:
Chech for traps- 25, 23, 19, 21.Roll init - 24, 20, 19, .... one of them rolled a 3 + dex = 8... the one roll all night below a 15.
Etc.
And the dragon style elemental monk (something like that, drow of course) rolling 2d6 damage + whatever monks add....
Maybe I am not ready since I don't know what damage stuff does.
The characters were all built ( as in take this feat, this race, this weapon & armor etc) by the guy that made the other 2 GM's not want to gm. They always had to use a monster that was 4 cr above his lvl to challenge (read not die by his first attack) and actually damage him. Bah I'm rambling. (Btw he is needed to play, we play @ his place and he brings 1 other player. Otherwise a 2 man group + dm and no place 2 play
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I feel you pain Agentjay. Is there a society game near you? PFS is a good way to learn the rules of the game if anything else. It sounds to me that your players are pulling a fast one since you are not familar with all of the rules. I do not know the dynamics of your relationship with these people, but I would not want to GM a game under these conditions. If you can I would seek another group or start over with lvl 1 characters, so you can lvl up as a GM with them. Hopefully they are mature enough to understand your misgivings.
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you want to be careful using higher CR single monsters because they're either too easy to take down because their abilities don't give them enough advantage, or too hard because their abilities can't be effectively countered.
Another idea is max hit points for enemies. Their abilities aren't stronger, but they'll last a little longer and make the fights a little more interesting.
This is what I recommend
1. Make it fair, Roll your monster stats
2. Use lower level monsters with class levels. A raging red dragon with one or two levels of barbarian of medium size can be as hard as a large one without giving him the deadly breath attack or a fear aura your party cant handle.
3. put them up against a mostly human party and use higher cr monsters as bosses. This is good if you want to burn them down over a couple encounters but keep enough of their abilities for a larger boss.
Any how that's what I've done for OP parties in the past. I just got done with a party that had a wizard with a 37 int. the rest of the party started feeling a little outclassed by the end
This is what I recommend
1. Make it fair, Roll your monster stats
2. Use lower level monsters with class levels. A raging red dragon with one or two levels of barbarian of medium size can be as hard as a large one without giving him the deadly breath attack or a fear aura your party cant handle.
3. put them up against a mostly human party and use higher cr monsters as bosses. This is good if you want to burn them down over a couple encounters but keep enough of their abilities for a larger boss.
Any how that's what I've done for OP parties in the past. I just got done with a party that had a wizard with a 37 int. the rest of the party started feeling a little outclassed by the end
I think its just wierd/difficult on me because every time I ask for a skill check its:
Chech for traps- 25, 23, 19, 21.
Roll init - 24, 20, 19, .... one of them rolled a 3 + dex = 8... the one roll all night below a 15.
Etc.
And the dragon style elemental monk (something like that, drow of course) rolling 2d6 damage + whatever monks add....
Maybe I am not ready since I don't know what damage stuff does.
The characters were all built ( as in take this feat, this race, this weapon & armor etc) by the guy that made the other 2 GM's not want to gm. They always had to use a monster that was 4 cr above his lvl to challenge (read not die by his first attack) and actually damage him. Bah I'm rambling. (Btw he is needed to play, we play @ his place and he brings 1 other player. Otherwise a 2 man group + dm and no place 2 play
Well, to be honest it sounds like you're out of your league. It also sounds like someone is a powergamer and has already received a reputation as someone who isn't worth running games for. He may actually see this as a badge of honor, which is unfortunate.
What I would do is shut down the game and actually play. Someone suggested PFS which is a great way to get involved. You can play under several GM's and ask questions, maybe go over the module with them afterwards and pick their brains on CR, decisions, dice rolls, etc...
If the other player makes characters for others and apparently requires very high CR's, then leave him to make his own party of PC's and GM himself. It's not worth the hassle.
Any how that's what I've done for OP parties in the past. I just got done with a party that had a wizard with a 37 int. the rest of the party started feeling a little outclassed by the end
May I ask how he got to 37 Int? I only query because natural progression, maximum stats, full level point increase and magical items have a maximum score of 31. I assume there's a wish or two involved and some other tricks I'm aware of, but just curious in either case.
May I ask how he got to 37 Int? I only query because natural progression, maximum stats, full level point increase and magical items have a maximum score of 31. I assume there's a wish or two involved and some other tricks I'm aware of, but just curious in either case.Any how that's what I've done for OP parties in the past. I just got done with a party that had a wizard with a 37 int. the rest of the party started feeling a little outclassed by the end
18
+5 (Natural Stat Bonus)+5 Tome (Inherent Bonus)
+6 Headband of win
+2 Racial (Elf)
+1 enhancement (Cracked Crimson Sphere Ioun Stone)
---
37 Total Int (before Fox's Cunning)
He was a total munchkin by the end. I used to allow 3.5 prestige classes at my table, but he came up with this ridiculous combo with his Pathfinder wizard Sorceror and the Ultimate Magus from Complete Mage. He took that and I think two feats. With that build he was able to use his bonus spells on his sorcerer side and spontaniously add metamagic feats to his Prepared spells (Evocation School ad mixture subschool) He was letting fly Enlarged Maximized Sonicballs (Fireball) each round. Almost nothing resists sonic energy. Needless, "Jeremiah Powergamer" became the center point of my encounter design. I had to adopt a philosophy of "Make the fight easy for the rest of the party and hard for the wizard to keep it balanced. Total nightmare, I grew from it though.
May I ask how he got to 37 Int? I only query because natural progression, maximum stats, full level point increase and magical items have a maximum score of 31. I assume there's a wish or two involved and some other tricks I'm aware of, but just curious in either case.Any how that's what I've done for OP parties in the past. I just got done with a party that had a wizard with a 37 int. the rest of the party started feeling a little outclassed by the end
18
+5 (Natural Stat Bonus)
+5 Tome (Inherent Bonus)
+6 Headband of win
+2 Racial (Elf)
+1 enhancement (Cracked Crimson Sphere Ioun Stone)
---
37 Total Int (before Fox's Cunning)He was a total munchkin by the end. I used to allow 3.5 prestige classes at my table, but he came up with this ridiculous combo with his Pathfinder wizard Sorceror and the Ultimate Magus from Complete Mage. He took that and I think two feats. With that build he was able to use his bonus spells on his sorcerer side and spontaniously add metamagic feats to his Prepared spells (Evocation School ad mixture subschool) He was letting fly Enlarged Maximized Sonicballs (Fireball) each round. Almost nothing resists sonic energy. Needless, "Jeremiah Powergamer" became the center point of my encounter design. I had to adopt a philosophy of "Make the fight easy for the rest of the party and hard for the wizard to keep it balanced. Total nightmare, I grew from it though.
The enhancement bonuses from the headband, the ioun stone, and Fox's Cunning do not stack.
Gapped on Tomes. I am big on PF because of the removal of prestige.
Thanks.
He's right, they're all enhancements and thus don't stack. Cunning is good, but the items outdo them. As for Ioun's, they're not useful for very much and they're very expensive.
Still thats a 36 without the stone.
Ghosts. Wraiths. Vampires. Mind control anyone with a low will save, level drain anyone with high will.
Keep in mind that the players are supposed to win most of the time. Just because it seems to you that they are sitting pretty after a fight does not mean the players did not have fun or that they never felt at risk in the moment.
Crown of the Kobold King is a neat little low-level adventure that keeps up a fast pace; the players have to rescue a band of kidnapped children before said children become sacrifices, so the clock is ticking, and there are some save or die encounters too.
I vote that you use clever tactics coupled with larger groups of enemies. What comes to mind is Return to Dragon Mountain - an old 2nd edition module unremarkable except that it use of kobolds as the antagonists for a 10+ APL group.
First you'll want to design encounters that minimize the PCs mobility. Battles could take place on restricted terrain (constrained by difficult terrain, ledges, pits or whatever else you can think of) or enemies that use nets and tanglefoot bags when in open space.
Next the enemy should have prepared the battlefield to be advantageous. Maybe a series of small-sized tunnels or heavy objects on swinging ropes (in the case the battle takes place near ledges and pits). A steep bowl depression filled with oil comes to mind (doesn't detect as a trap to the spell but becomes quite hazardous once a kobold throws a flaming rag in). The (inferior) enemies should also have an effective ranged option and the means to keep the PCs at arms length for as long as possible.
The enemy should also have the means to organize and bring superior numbers to bear. I like the idea of ominous battle drums rallying the kobolds to war. The smart party will look to flee and fight another day. If the kobolds have an ogre ally this would be the time to bring him out. Also, group grappling tactics and (in)human wave tactics, streaming around the melee-types to get at the casters.
The enemy should also look to enhance their abilities while degrading those of the PCs. I'm thinking of a kobold cleric that casts bless and bane, a kobold necromancer casting ray of enfeeblement and cause fear.
In summary a smart enemy will never fight the PCs on their own terms, instead choosing their battles to their own maximum advantage whenever possible.
I'd say you should really have a talk with the tool making overpowered characters for the whole party. He sounda like a grade A Munchkineer and is overdoing it. First of all unless your VERY comfortable with the rules and ready to really amp up encounters they should either be getting access to more monstrous races, or have higher ability score rolling methods, not both. In your case with it being your first time DMing I'd allow neither. Give them at most a 25 point buy and limit them to core races. Personally I dont care who he is, at first level before he has a chance to make a name for himself any drow walking into a town, unarmed or not, is gonna have a bunch of CR 6+ guards swarming him.
In short, no matter how crucial this guy is to your gaming group, dont let him push you around. He's one of the people that asked you to DM and that should mean he agrees to play by your rules. You need time to learn the game and the tricks of running one especially.
Asta
PSY
You should decide how you want to run it. Should it be by the book, fairness and equality all around? Or do you want to run cool encounters?
If going for the first option you'll best get ready to go through a lot of frustration over the next 4 or 5 levels as the game (in my experience) is quite easy to tweak into absurdity at the lower levels. As soon as the group get som levels under their belt and doesn't risk a TPK if the monster actually hit them, you can start putting in the interesting encounters. Patience is key here. If you want to challenge them the earlier suggestions with adding enemies, casters and ranged support are soild. You could also use a variety of traps, pits and conditions to harrass them during the fight.
If you're going for the cool encounter approach, Cheat (that probably just condemned me on these forums xD). Cheating isn't easier at all, but it makes for a combat flow that will actually work. Don't break the basic rules of action economy, powers/level and such, be subtle, boost the hit points of select bad guys, cheat the initiative rolls, make a multi-weapon fighter and "forget" to factor in some of the penalties. If this is done right it will make your game memmorable. But be careful, if you overdo it they will find out or you may become prone to hurting them more than is good fun. It's a balancing act between making it look good on film and making it a horrible mash up of a GM power trip.
I used to allow 3.5 prestige classes at my table, but he came up with this ridiculous combo with his Pathfinder wizard Sorceror and the Ultimate Magus from Complete Mage. He took that and I think two feats. With that build he was able to use his bonus spells on his sorcerer side and spontaniously add metamagic feats to his Prepared spells (Evocation School ad mixture subschool) He was letting fly Enlarged Maximized Sonicballs (Fireball) each round.
Ultimate Magus as intended is fine. It's even fine if you +3CL like everyone who uses it does.
His build isn't valid. Admixture subschool (assuming it's the PF one) and energy substution (the most recent 3.5 one, I think it's from complete arcane) don't let you convert to sonic damage. Ultimate Magus also specifically doesn't allow you to spontaneously apply metamagic to metamagic'd spells.
Also, as stated above enhancement bonuses don't stack.
As to the OP, you could tucker's kobolds them. Most of the time fighting smarter will get you a lot further than throwing more/stronger guys into the mix. But don't forget that people are playing to have fun. As long as everyone is having fun it's not a bad thing they solve combat easily. Give them RP stuff too.
Just start playing and improvise a little if necessary.
By improvising I mean things like: PCs doing more damage than expected? The ogre has some 20hp more. Players complaining "ogres always have x hp!"? Your answer: "Like you humans do?" ...
Don't give out magic items, that will balance things...
'Real heroes don't need magical items !'
ennemy summoner with invisibility, have him summon the monsters behind the corner so they don't get the "summoned" aspect.
Talk to the members of the group (all of them) and see what they like and don't like about the game. If they truly want to feel like supers in a normal world and steamroll everything then think long and hard about whether or not that is a game you want to run.
If they want to be supers in a challenging world, then they shouldn't complain when they don't 1-shot goblins. But ask the group what they want out of the game and don't let 1 person dictate the group's response. Good luck!
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give a few potions to the NPC/monsters. if they provide any warning, like loud fighting have them buff up a little.
Fly
Invisibility/vanish
protection from energy
darkvision
bulls strength
blur
Displacement
Find something that fits. if they manage to stealth and surprise them the PCs can get extra loot too.
You could also ignore the fact that they're OP and "punish" them by putting them up against encounters that are designed for non-munchkins. After several fights that are nominal at best they will reconsider their character choices. Or they won't, in which case you as a dm could focus on story more and combat less. If they don't want a challenge, why pull your hair out giving it to them?
Another option: install exploding bad guys. Dark creepers/stalkers are all fine and dandy, but get old.
Make all the baddies explode on death - and the super heroes have to figure out why all the baddies are exploding. Added bonus: *no* rings of evasion or equivalent items are for sale. Anywhere, from anyone. Make them sweat a bit.
The bigger the baddy, the bigger the kablooie...
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Play monsters smart and clever - tactics. Everytime I've done this, it scares the hell out of my group.