So I am playing a spell caster that is specializing in enchantment spells currently 4th level. And the longer I play the more I realize that I hate enchantment spells. Cause it seems like the most I am doing is impeding enemies for one round and being 4th level I still do not have a lot of spells so I can't even impend large numbers of enemies. So I am growing very frustrated with not feeling like I am being effective in combat. All of my party members were being swarmed by enemies and I was feeling really helpless to stop them.
So any suggestions?
I generally find enchantment and many divinations to be next to useless.
My 2C.
Can you give us some examples?
Also can you tell us your class? spellcaster with enchantment spells can mean a lot of things.
I'm assuming you're using either a wizard or sorcerer?
The Sleep spell can help against lower level enemies at least. Once you can cast 3rd level spells, you can cast Deep Slumber.
There are other options that are a bit harder to use in combat.... Hypnotism can affect a number of creatures and maybe allow your allies to get into position. Charm Person could allow you to convince one enemy that he needs to stop is friends from fighting (hopefully by grappling an enemy). I guess Unnatural Lust (ick) could be used to distract two enemies at a time.
Yea, it would probably be a good idea to make sure you have a few other options, even if it is just using burning hands or magic missile.
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Is your campaign combat focused? Enchantments may be so-so in combat, but they can have a huge effect on the rest of the game...
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Is your campaign combat focused? Enchantments may be so-so in combat, but they can have a huge effect on the rest of the game...
Loimprevisto has struck the heart of the issue.
Scorching Ray, Mage Armor, Fireball, Black Tenticles, Haste, these are all good spells. However, they are primarily only good in combat.
Charm Person, Suggestion, Geas, Dominate Person, these spells are amazingly powerful, useful, and flexible in many situations, but mediocre in combat.
One spell, or school, can't do everything.
Can you give us some examples?
Also can you tell us your class? spellcaster with enchantment spells can mean a lot of things.
Witch class and the sleep hex has been banned.
An example is we were fighting a bunch of human henchmen types like close to 20 of them in one room. So everyone else got surrounded since they were all pretty much between me and the bad guys. And all I could do was either evil eye them or a command but that was like once. I did a hold person on the bbg granted he made his will save the next round.
And then we found some kind of undead after that and all of my spells were useless for that I shot cross bolts at it or at least I tried didn't hit a thing.
Now I am also a player that is use to hitting things this is my first time playing a dedicated spell caster.
Bards can do some pretty nice things with enchantments.
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Witch class and the sleep hex has been banned.
How about Evil Eye, Misfortune, and Cackle? There are still a lot of good, spammable options for a Witch without the Sleep Hex.
On the main subject, anyone specializing in Enchantment really needs to keep other options around. Many enemies are immune or have high will saves, meaning you need to spread your slots around for other options outside your preferred school. Exactly what to recommend is going to depend heavily on level and patron, though.
Witch class and the sleep hex has been banned.How about Evil Eye, Misfortune, and Cackle? There are still a lot of good, spammable options for a Witch without the Sleep Hex.
On the main subject, anyone specializing in Enchantment really needs to keep other options around. Many enemies are immune or have high will saves, meaning you need to spread your slots around for other options outside your preferred school. Exactly what to recommend is going to depend heavily on level and patron, though.
Well my patron is enchantment.
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Can you give us some examples?
Also can you tell us your class? spellcaster with enchantment spells can mean a lot of things.Witch class and the sleep hex has been banned.
An example is we were fighting a bunch of human henchmen types like close to 20 of them in one room. So everyone else got surrounded since they were all pretty much between me and the bad guys. And all I could do was either evil eye them or a command but that was like once. I did a hold person on the bbg granted he made his will save the next round.
And then we found some kind of undead after that and all of my spells were useless for that I shot cross bolts at it or at least I tried didn't hit a thing.
Now I am also a player that is use to hitting things this is my first time playing a dedicated spell caster.
I would advice to get slumber hex unbanned, I mean come on, it only affects 1 person, and your GM can throw undead and other mind-immune creatures from time to time.
The slumber hex is a pretty good hex. My 4th level witch has it and in all of the times that I have used it I believe it has only worked once or twice.
Witch class and the sleep hex has been banned.Can you give us some examples?
Also can you tell us your class? spellcaster with enchantment spells can mean a lot of things.
Why do I get the feeling that your GM is just anti-good magic? Well, read some of the guides on spellcasters and you'll see some of the limitations to enchantment you have already expressed.
I'm a fan of the school, but combat control is not the enchantments forte. You need to branch out your spells and pick your moments with enchantment.
Also, tell your GM to stop being silly.
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Definitely agreed that you can't just do enchanement with nothing else. Or any one area with nothing else.
For instance, I have a new Tattooed Fey Sorceress who double specializes in enchantment and evocation. The Varisian Tattoo boosts her evocation, while the Fey bloodline boosts enchantment. For each new level of spell known, I intend to take one of each, then utilities and other spells later.
At 1st level that means Sleep and Magic Missile, along with Daze and Acid Splash as cantrips, though I'm aware Acid Splash isn't evocation and wouldn't benefit from the tattoo even if it were. The point is I get one direct damage and one enchantment spell for each spell level. If something's got a mind, I enchant it. If not, I blast it. When I get 2nd level spells, it'll be Scorching Ray and Hideous Laughter, etc.
Splitting specialties this way makes you more flexible.
Echoing Fromper's advice - be a fork, not a knife!
Enchantment *can* be very strong in combat, but it's dependent on creature type (to say the least) and you have to REALLY crack out your save DCs. That said, it's common for the boss villains to be humanoids, so it can be very handy.
Enchantment is VERY handy out of combat - certainly, it eases life in humanoid cities!
In combat, though, you need to be able to buff allies and hinder-or-harm enemies. I'm running a (currently) 9th level human Fey bloodline sorceress who specializes in enchantment and necromancy (what I call the "love me or die" approach). If she can't confuse or charm them she can blind, curse, and poison them - when she isn't hasting the party and casting "Fly" on the raging barbarian. Because my necromancy DCs are high (SF and GSF: Necromancy) I can often handle undead by controlling them (persistent command undead, DC 22 will save), though it's much more effective vs. corporeal undead.
(Pro tip: lesser rod of persistent spell is the enchanter's best friend!)
In general, my character design philosophy has ALWAYS been to master two things: one which is useful in combat, and the other which is useful outside of combat. "Enchanters" would do well to be mindful of such a balanced approach.
Definitely agreed that you can't just do enchanement with nothing else. Or any one area with nothing else.
For instance, I have a new Tattooed Fey Sorceress who double specializes in enchantment and evocation. The Varisian Tattoo boosts her evocation, while the Fey bloodline boosts enchantment. For each new level of spell known, I intend to take one of each, then utilities and other spells later.
At 1st level that means Sleep and Magic Missile, along with Daze and Acid Splash as cantrips, though I'm aware Acid Splash isn't evocation and wouldn't benefit from the tattoo even if it were. The point is I get one direct damage and one enchantment spell for each spell level. If something's got a mind, I enchant it. If not, I blast it. When I get 2nd level spells, it'll be Scorching Ray and Hideous Laughter, etc.
Splitting specialties this way makes you more flexible.
I would love iit if witches got magic missile
If your DM isn't going to let your character shine after four levels, he's not going to let your character shine in the future. With enchantment and illusion, the power of the spell is directly proportional to how comfortable your DM is at being flexible and adjusting encounters on the fly. It sounds like you've got a controlling DM rather than a collaborative one, so I'd aim your character for a heroic suicide and reboot. It's the only way your DM is going to let you have fun.
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Can you give us some examples?
Also can you tell us your class? spellcaster with enchantment spells can mean a lot of things.Witch class and the sleep hex has been banned.
An example is we were fighting a bunch of human henchmen types like close to 20 of them in one room. So everyone else got surrounded since they were all pretty much between me and the bad guys. And all I could do was either evil eye them or a command but that was like once. I did a hold person on the bbg granted he made his will save the next round.
And then we found some kind of undead after that and all of my spells were useless for that I shot cross bolts at it or at least I tried didn't hit a thing.
Now I am also a player that is use to hitting things this is my first time playing a dedicated spell caster.
Yeah, hold person got nerfed really hard in 3.5 and remained nerfed in Pathfinder. In 3E and previous editions, it held you for the whole duration without additional saves. To see how it actually worked, see halt undead only apply it to humanoids instead. It was much better. These days I don't even bother to use hold person because it's save negates with a save every round. Way too risky.
Currently our group has a psionic character who has been making great use of the psionic equivalent of enchantment (telepathy) spells. She recently charmed a CR 10 9 headed half-black-dragon hydra. The critter is a monstrous engine of destruction, but he only had a +5 Will save. He rolled a 6 and ended up her thrall. It's things like that that make enchantment spells really cool. :P
The biggest problem with enchanters is that your GM needs to be honest. Fudging GMs are the bane of enchanters. Most of them don't want their BBEGs becoming your plaything. Me, I don't care. One NPC out of a dozen I say. :P
So I am playing a spell caster that is specializing in enchantment spells currently 4th level. And the longer I play the more I realize that I hate enchantment spells. Cause it seems like the most I am doing is impeding enemies for one round and being 4th level I still do not have a lot of spells so I can't even impend large numbers of enemies. So I am growing very frustrated with not feeling like I am being effective in combat. All of my party members were being swarmed by enemies and I was feeling really helpless to stop them.
So any suggestions?
I can relate. My PFS character is an Elven Enchanter (specialist wizard), and while I really like the character concept I had in mind, he hasn't had too many opportunities to shine in PFS scenarios. And I'm stuck with him (my friends won't want to go back to level 1 just to allow me to change my class).
I should have kept the concept for a non-PFS campaign with more RP-oriented encounters and urban locales -- might have had more success there.
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Are you looking to...
1) Impend large numbers of enemies?
2) Avoid party members were being swarmed by enemies?
3) Avoid feeling really helpless to stop them?
4) Have a lot of spells/Powers?
Then look no further! Be a... MASTER SUMMONER!
As a lv 4 Master Summoner, you can (with the Superior Summoning feat at lv 3):
1) Summon up to 1d3+1 Eagles, riding dog or any other monsters to block large number of enemies.
2) Use these monsters to protect your party mates.
3) STOP attacks, by using your monsters/animals as meat shields.
4) At level 4 that's 5+int mod per day of summons. In addition to your daily allocation of spells. Plus the summons last for mins per level!
Summons give you all of the above without the horrors of saves, spell resistance and immunities that enchantments suffer from.
So throw out your flimsy enchantment spells and be a tanking-by-proxy Master Summoner today! :)
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Can you give us some examples?
Also can you tell us your class? spellcaster with enchantment spells can mean a lot of things.Witch class and the sleep hex has been banned.
An example is we were fighting a bunch of human henchmen types like close to 20 of them in one room. So everyone else got surrounded since they were all pretty much between me and the bad guys. And all I could do was either evil eye them or a command but that was like once. I did a hold person on the bbg granted he made his will save the next round.
And then we found some kind of undead after that and all of my spells were useless for that I shot cross bolts at it or at least I tried didn't hit a thing.
Now I am also a player that is use to hitting things this is my first time playing a dedicated spell caster.
The fact that the Slumber Hex has been disallowed makes the high level witch in me cry a little. That hex alone makes being a battlefield controller oh-so-very worthwhile.
Also, things to play with, look at getting some other debuff-type spells if you're going that route. Black Tentacles at higher levels is just fun (if used properly), and Summon Monster can be your greatest ally when it comes to evening out a fight, especially against constructs/undead/mindless creatures.
EDIT: Fiendish Crocodiles solve EVERYTHING. Also, at your next level, you get a nasty little spell called Bestow Curse. Evil Eye their saves down, then hit 'em with that to drop their biggest strength.
The trick to a Witch is making it easier for your party to kill the enemies, not to be the big badass blaster (though the Elements Patron lets you do that, too), but to be a general battlefield debuffer/control type.
Yeah, hold person got nerfed really hard in 3.5.
Your kidding right. Hold person/monster rocks. Last 3.5 game I played I took out an entire encounter solo using hold monster and nothing else.
Then again my DC was like 34 for that spell at level 15 so that might of been it.Yeah, if you want to be a good enchanter it like the others said, you have to branch out. Find another school to mix and match with.Or do what I do...if I cannot kill the creature on my own, I buff the hell out of the rest of my team and have them kill it.
Yeah, I'd blame the obscenely high DC for that one. If your opponents have a 5% chance to save, then multi-save spells are still pretty amazing. However, a more reasonable hold person DC at 4th level is around DC 16 (10 + 2 + 4 ability), 18 with spell focus and greater spell focus. So that's assuming an 18 key stat and 2 feats. Enemies who have only a +0 Will save (likely mooks) will have a 20-40% chance of saving each round. Every +1 will is another 5% chance. It's hard enough to get the spell to stick on the first round, let alone long enough to actually last the whole duration.
I prefer 3E hold spells. Hold Person and the like last 1 round/level and only allow 1 save (the initial save). You could always dispel it or something, but it made it actually useful. IMHO, it's not very good as is. Hold Person used to be a good spell (and was awesome in Baldur's Gate).
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As someone already said, keep your diversity in spells. Witch is jack of all trades next to bard. Having different spells ready is crucial but biggest bane for them is that most of spells are from Enchantment school of magic.
Key is also in knowing what will you encounter in the near future and setting appropriate list of spells.
I can recommend some good spells to be considered:
Chill Touch ( in combination with Prehensile Hair or Spectral Hand is highly good low level spell vs the undead, vs who witches hate )
Touch of Fatigue Cantrip ( again with Hair or Hand or some other reach spell. It requires 2 saves to pass but it gives fatigue debuff for rounds/level )
Ill Omen ( if you dont have Misfortune hex, Ill Omen is no save spell that requires NPC to reroll any d20 once or even more times depending on your level )
Ear Piercing Scream ( single target spell, dazes person, its Fort based )
Mage Armor is a must.
Frost Fall ( is a lv2 spell which might do some good aoe dmg on lower levels )
Web ( is lv2 spell great for controling masses on ground, just make sure your allies have some ranged weapons )
Vomit Swarm ( just take it please, you will love it. )
50% of your spell list should include enchantment spells to be truthful, maybe even less for a witch. Some better enchantment spells come from 5th level only, Suggestion, Dominate, Confusion and some really crippling debuffs which can literally disable BBEG completely.
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Witches don't need magic missile, in fact magic missile is a kinda poor spell even for wizards. When it starts getting good you are probably better off putting utility spells into your 1st level slot.
Also, 20 enemies is a hard encounter at lvl 4. at 1/3 CR each, 2 is CR 1, 4 is CR 3, 8 is CR 4, 16 is CR 6. Add in a BBEG and you easily bump the encounter up past epic (APL +3).
If your GM regularly uses hard/epic encounters you should be justified in asking for your class to have all of its features.
Anyways, if the norm is largish numbers of low level NPCs then prepare AoE spells like sleep, summon swarm and web. Just because your patron is enchantment doesn't mean you actually have to use enchantment spells exclusively. (in fact the patrons are the weakest part of the witch class, yippee, some extra spells and no real interesting things about each patron).
Witches don't need magic missile, in fact magic missile is a kinda poor spell even for wizards. When it starts getting good you are probably better off putting utility spells into your 1st level slot.
Also, 20 enemies is a hard encounter at lvl 4. at 1/3 CR each, 2 is CR 1, 4 is CR 3, 8 is CR 4, 16 is CR 6. Add in a BBEG and you easily bump the encounter up past epic (APL +3).
If your GM regularly uses hard/epic encounters you should be justified in asking for your class to have all of its features.
Anyways, if the norm is largish numbers of low level NPCs then prepare AoE spells like sleep, summon swarm and web. Just because your patron is enchantment doesn't mean you actually have to use enchantment spells exclusively. (in fact the patrons are the weakest part of the witch class, yippee, some extra spells and no real interesting things about each patron).
Just wanted to chime in and say that I don't think magic missile ever becomes a poor spell. If anything, I think it is poorest at 1st level, and only gets better. By 9th level, you have an average 17.5 damage (minimum 10, maximum 25) attack that is basically unavoidable barring a short duration shield spell (or specific magic item that absorbs some damage before being destroyed). It also has a good range (100 ft + 10 ft / level). It is arguably one of the best - if not the best - spell for countering enemy casters (drop a 1st level magic missile to force a huge concentration check for any spell).
In large volleys, magic missile can be monstrous. While less obvious in your typical party (which only has 1 to maybe 2 casters), the effectiveness of such tactics is easy to see with a group of NPC spellcasters. At higher levels, simulacrums and familiars with UMD can get into the game of spamming magic missiles.
Because it never becomes useless (especially for countering enemy casting), it's a wonderful option for mnemonic enhancer, which grants you additional spell slots (3 per casting, or 3 per charge via a wand). If you craft a wand of mnemonic enhancer, you can prepare 3 additional magic missiles spells per charge; setting the cost per extra missile at 70 gp. Roughly the cost of 3.5 alchemist fires. Not a bad deal for 17.5 non-avoidable instantaneous damage.
It's also viciously good when combined with a Book of Harms. Prepare it a few times per day and you get the option to maximize an evocation spell on the spot for free if you take 1d4 damage per spell level. Magic missile is 1st level. You take an average of 2.5 damage to inflict 25 damage (a DC 35 + spell level concentration check in addition to also being damage for 25 hp). Being a 1st level spell, it's also prime for use with lesser metamagic rods.
And so on and so forth. :3