I'm pretty sure this has already been discussed,but i don't find what i really need.
Soon i could need a home rule to prevent a couple of spellcasters from casting their spells,a magus and a sorcerer.
It is still hypothetical,but i'm pondering the possibility of having my party captured/enslaved soon or in upcoming quests,but now the problems i'm having is how to do it.
I know a GM must be extra careful when handling such situations,and the real concern isn't to arrange for a cool escape,but how to keep the spellcasters imprisoned for awhile.
When a player asked me, i told him "of course there are ways of keeping you from casting your spells...or else when a BBEG captures the PCs,and it happens sometimes,the only other possible choice to be sure you won't cast the spells you still have memorized is outright killing you"
When and if it will happen however i'll need to know what such ways are;
a sorcerer (draconic bloodline if this is important)is a pain in this regard,since she already has Eschew materials and if he takes Still spells and Silence spells....i don't want to think at that;for the magus it should be enough to strip her (female elf) of spellbook/components bags,but she will still have memorized slots, and can still take the aforementioned feats.
I thought of maybe some necklace that casts a personal anti-magic field and is person-specific,so it wouldn't work on other spellcasters,but maybe i'm overacting with designing such an item? Isn't it too powerful?
Blindness/Deafness is also (a) low-level and (b) a good start. Hard to target what you can't see OR hear. Doublecast it, once for each effect.
I think the most simple way is to bind/gag them. This takes away somatic and verbal spells that they need to cast. Moreover, spell casters absolutly suck when it comes to actual physical things, so if you take proper precautions you can easily handicapp the spell casters and let the rogues shine.
As far as the Anti-Magic field, and depending on the charater level, its a pretty high spell, especially to make it permanent. I'd use caution becuase the story may not seem beliveable if there is an anti magic field in the middle of a goblin dungeon. (Catch my drift?)
Just bind/tie up and gag them, now if you have a spontaneous caster with eschew materials and still spell and silent spell and he succeeds in his concentration check.... well then just let him to use his character OR if the captor knows that the character has all of this then simply kill that character, it's the only logical and most efficient thing to do.
I think the most simple way is to bind/gag them. This takes away somatic and verbal spells that they need to cast. Moreover, spell casters absolutly suck when it comes to actual physical things, so if you take proper precautions you can easily handicapp the spell casters and let the rogues shine.
As far as the Anti-Magic field, and depending on the charater level, its a pretty high spell, especially to make it permanent. I'd use caution becuase the story may not seem beliveable if there is an anti magic field in the middle of a goblin dungeon. (Catch my drift?)
Yes, i'm not an inexperienced GM, it is just my first time handling these matters with Pathfinder. I thought that an anti-magic necklace only usable on one person and only removable by its owner could have maid for a good subplot without being too much abusable;but you never know what players may come up with.
And eventually the item would be found in high-security prison dungeon run by the government the PCs are held by.
Black bag them to effectively blind them removing line of sight/effect.
However my personal favorite is to constantly hit them with nonlethal damage. An unconscious spellcaster is not casting anything mwahahahaha
If it's just a matter of escape... dimensional anchor can make sure they don't teleport out.
Deeper darkness doesn't grant saves and works vs darkvision.
Mad Monkeys hihi
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Other than direct precautions - you can add roleplay related reasons: "If anybody escapes, your friends will be executed immediately."
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I thought of maybe some necklace that casts a personal anti-magic field and is person-specific,so it wouldn't work on other spellcasters,but maybe i'm overacting with designing such an item? Isn't it too powerful?
Yes, you're overreacting even thinking of such an item. Firstly, that item would be insanely expensive (528,000 gp) which makes one wonder exactly why the BBEG is strapping half a million gold pieces to the neck of these foolish adventurers. If they did escape, the necklaces are probably the most valuable treasure they ever got.
Secondly, antimagic field is a crutch. Try to forget it exists as a GM. Most good players (especially wizards) either have ways of dodging antimagic field (even if activated within 10 ft. of them and not on their turn), or methods for getting around it (many of those methods actually using magic). Antimagic field is a high enough level spell to threaten the verisimilitude of most worlds if used with even mild frequency for mundane tasks such as preventing spellcasters from caster. Only weak GMs believe antimagic field is a good option for GMs.
Instead, turn to the more mundane. As TriOmegaZero pointed out, simply tying casters up in Pathfinder can produce nearly impossible to beat Concentration checks. Using a 1st level wizard with true strike and a few assistants can easily set the DC in the mid 30s to low 40s + spell level.
Resetting traps in their cells that are cheap can prevent people from getting adequate rest without actually inflicting pain. A resetting trap that casts create water to spray down the caster every 4 hours or so should be enough to prevent the atmosphere from being very useful for preparing or regaining spells. Other examples might include mage hand or even ghost sound. All of these resetting traps are less than 1,000 gp if memory serves.
You can also put a guard nearby. The guard could be something as mundane as humans who switch shifts regularly, to an undead or construct with specific instructions to keep them in their cell and not let them cast spells. Bound and gagged you are pinned. Even if by some miracle you manage to beat the Concentration check, have the spell stilled, and the spell silenced, anyone standing near you still get an attack of opportunity the moment you begin casting the spell; allowing yet one more chance to slap you into submission (and slapping you around isn't exactly difficult when you're literally helpless).
|
Depending on how you want the breakout to occur, there's always poisons to keep them tolerable.
Id Moss for Wizards and Magi
Insanity Mist for Clerics
Ungol Dust for Sorcerers and Oracles (though the drain on it kinda sucks)
Not enough to keep 'em unconscious, but unable to cast. Also use Str/Dex poisons to keep them too weak to move (at 0).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What about just casting feeblemind? -4 to both there saves and makes it so they can't cast spells.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In our games we always used cold iron as sort of anti-magic material.
Manacles made from cold-iron could impose a very high spell failure chance on the caster (80 or more %, even with still spell). So the character still has a chance to cast, yet it is very narrow (and dangerous if you use spell fumble cards)
In one adventure I played in the really powerful casters would be encased in a coffin of cold iron (kinda like the Earthbender-King from Avatar).
Other ways would be one person constantly watching and having a ready action to strike when a spell is cast. For a normal guard that would be not really feasible, but a construct or an undead would have the patience.
One way it could be implemented for example is an Iron Cobra construct physically bound to the caster (maybe the shackles themselves are part of the cobra body) that will bite him, injecting lethal poison if he casts a spell.
Third option depends strongly on setting and the place it happens. But if the BBEG has access to a wild magic zone he can put the caster there. Casting is dangerous in such zones and the caster might kill himself trying to flee.
Such a zone could come from many things. Chaos node. Trapped chaotic outsider. A mysterious cave the BBEG found by chance.
Outright denying magic via anti-magic is a hard thing to as it completely negates a character's abilities. Make it hard for magic to be used or add a harsh penalty to it. This way it can still be used tactically.
Also it could make great roleplaying material. The cleric healing a dying friend even though he knows the manacles will shoot poison into him when he does...
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
If a player spends 2 feats on Still Spell and Silent Spell in order to be able to get out of being imprisoned, they deserve to be able to get out of being imprisoned.
This.
If your players have expended a lot of effort to avoid being captured, making scenarios that hinge on them staying captured is a bad idea. If you have to go to absurd lengths to pull something like this off, it should be a warning sign.
As GM you always have unlimited resources. But your NPCs should not. If a character goes to reasonable lengths to prevent assassins or thieves from entering his tower, you don't send in super thief to breach it; you let the thief get caught and use that as a plot point.
So expect the casters to escape despite reasonable precautions (blindfold/gag/manacles), or give the PCs good reason to deliberately not escape until the time is right (i.e. convince them to allow themselves to be captured to bypass all the big bad's defenses).
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Another way of thinking about it is that even real life maximum security prisons are not impenetrable, just VERY VERY hard to get out of.
Fantasy societies will have figured out ways of dealing with spellcasting offenders. As a matter of course, spellcasters will be finger-bound, gagged, and spell components/spellbooks confiscated. This alone will be enough to stop anything except a Stilled, Silent, Eschew Materials-ed spell. If a player has invested all the resources into those feats and can pull it off, that's the fantasy equivalent of somebody attacking a maximum security prison with a tank battalion to bust their buddies out. It's very secure, but it just isn't equipped to handle that kind of escape attempt because it's pretty unlikely that that level of resources would be brought to bear in the first place.
The kinds of detention facilities that are equipped to deal with magical offenders will probably be protected with the likes of hallow with dispel magic (to shut down spells) or detect magic (to make magic use obvious to the guards) tied to it. Spellcasters will be watched whenever they eat or use the latrine because they'll have to be ungagged and/or unbound to do so.
The ultimate option for detaining high-level spellcasters would be something like stasis or a demiplane where magic doesn't function.
While I understand you are doing this for plot reasons, just a word of caution: It's very tricky and dangerous to take away a character's class ability for the sake of storyline. Especially a main class ability such as spell from a sorcerer.
With that being said, as people have said before; If the character is investing feats to be able to cast while grappled/bound, you should not simply "find ways around that", because it's a slap in the face of the player.
If you take away your casters' spells, make sure to have scenarios where they can use skills or something to stay in the game. No one likes to feel like they go to their session just to sit on the proverbial couch because their class got shut down.
As for things you could do:
- bind/Gag
- Strip of items
- Keep them from sleeping/not give the sorcerer a chance to meditate
- Anti Magic Field
- Supersticious barbarians :D
- Solitary Confinement room (if they cant cast teleportation spells, they can't get out) with supersticious barbarians guarding
I'm mostly echoing Charlie Bell's comments. Think up an element of the characters' imprisonment that keeps the emphasis on what will happen if they are discovered to have escaped...rather than on if they escape at all.
Otherwise you are "telling" the PC's that your scenario is all about breaking out of this prison. It's like sitting a beautiful hand crafted chess set down in front of a master chess player, looking into their eyes accross an empty chess board with timer...and a crowd of super-duper chess fans cheering them on all around you...and then asking if they would like to play a game of Uno instead. No, they want to kick your booty at chess in front of the adoring crowd and then smite your ruin upon the mountainside as Gandalf would say.
Put an anti-jail character in jail? They're going to break out and fight you every step of the way if you attempt to 'keep' them imprisoned. This is also the type of scenario that can turn actual game groups sour, set up an antagonistic game of 'one upsmanship', and badwrongfun could be had by all.
Without knowing the personalities of the players and the minutiae of their characters I can't really give meaningful advice to further the point for your specific group. But, everyone has a pressure point that exists outside their direct means of control. Any BBEG worth their black mamba super villain cape should be well informed as to the who/what/where that matters to each PC. This plot hammer is used all the time in books/movies/comics/rpgs/videogames.
Find a pressure point for each PC and kick it with a black jackbooted heel. Power, money, women, men, glory, friendship, loyalty, honor, more power, chicken fries, limited edition tatooed gnomes...everyone has something they want. Threaten to break it/kill it/take it away if they escape.
Sure Superman could break out of jail. But Lois Lane is going to get a bullet in the ear if he does.
Step Up Feat chain and Disruptive Feat.
There was a creature in Ravenloft called a "Witchbane Leech" whose presence on a spell caster imposed a spell casting failure chance. The more leeches the higher the failure chance. In fact I believe one module had a section that revolved around the PCs being captured and held in steel shackles containing water and a number of witchbane leeches to keep them from just blasting their way out of the sanatorium where they were held.
Obviously, these are old D&D creatures... but it wouldn't take much to either convert them or create something similar from scratch.
Secondly, antimagic field is a crutch. Try to forget it exists as a GM. Most good players (especially wizards) either have ways of dodging antimagic field (even if activated within 10 ft. of them and not on their turn), or methods for getting around it (many of those methods actually using magic). Antimagic field is a high enough level spell to threaten the verisimilitude of most worlds if used with even mild frequency for mundane tasks such as preventing spellcasters from caster. Only weak GMs believe antimagic field is a good option for GMs.
Instead, turn to the more mundane. As TriOmegaZero pointed out, simply tying casters up in Pathfinder can produce nearly impossible to beat Concentration checks. Using a 1st level wizard with true strike and a few assistants can easily set the DC in the mid 30s to low 40s + spell level.
Resetting traps in their cells that are cheap can prevent people from getting adequate rest without actually inflicting pain. A resetting trap that casts create water to spray down the caster every 4 hours or so should be enough to prevent the atmosphere from being very useful for preparing or regaining spells. Other examples might include mage hand or even ghost sound. All of these resetting traps are less than 1,000 gp if memory serves.
You can also put a guard nearby. The guard could be something as mundane as humans who switch shifts regularly, to an undead or construct with specific...
.
.
There are a great many simple methods to stop casters from casting, and they're much less heavy-handed than house rules or high-level magic.
- Tie or manacle them up to prevent somatic components.
- Gag them to prevent verbal components.
- Take their spell pouches to prevent material components.
- Prevent them from sleeping to stop memorization/renewal. (If you've read Game of Thrones, consider copying the "sky cells" or something similar. Simply having a guard walk by once in a while banging some pots together works too.)
- Put the caster in a situation that requires a difficult concentration check to cast a spell. (Perhaps manacled under a waterfall or in a pool of thick mud.)
- Have the BBEG treat the Sorcerer as the primary threat and not even bother to lock her up. "You will be my honored guest, or your friends will be killed."
For now, I suggest not worrying about Silent & Still metamagic feats. They're not particularly popular feat choices. If you think the player is seriously considering them, simply add a couple of cheap metamagic rods to the loot and she'll probably change that plan. If your sorcerer takes them anyway, let her escape by using them! Then, once the BBEG knows that she can do that, he can react appropriately.
Lots of great options here, though it seems that someone forgot to mention Fumbletongue.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I also suggest you don’t do this. Look- PC’s have a lot of tricks up their sleeves, which means that in order to capture them without killing them you’re going to either have to super-over power them or hand-wave it. Either will be resented. Then of course, you’re gonna take their stuff away, which is also resented by players. Note that players look upon loot as a reward for good game play.
I know every DM considers the whole “taken captive” scenario, but it’s a very bad idea to spring upon existing PC’s. Now, starting a campaign like that- ala Skull & Shackles, can be a great way of getting PC’s together, starting a campaign, etc.
Someone might have mentioned it, but fight magic with magic?
Silence kills all spells with a Vocal component.
Lead walls (because apparently, they are anti-magical)
Anti-Magic Area.
Be creative?
I wouldn't change the rules too much, because they'll find a way to use them against your casters.
Here are the tools in your arsenal:
This doesn't tell you how to stop their casting, but it provides a good opening. Once grappled, it'll be pretty hard for them to cast (when using high CMB enemies, anyway). Multiple enemies can aid: +2 to grapple for each additional creature. And Silence is still good. If the sorcerer takes Silent Spell, they have to spend a full round action to cast anything, and if they have to do this constantly, it limits their options. Finally, even if the sorcerer gets free, you still have the other party members pinned down. The sorcerer alone shouldn't be able to turn the tide of the battle.
Just as long as it's reasonable for the enemies to behave this way, that is. Every enemy knowing what they prepared that day, or what equipment they have, even without having gotten intel on the party, is a bit of a stretch.
If a character is exceptionally prepared for potential imprisonment, I'd let their efforts pay off. That doesn't mean that they have carte blanche to escape, it just means that they have a hard-earned advantage in their escape attempts.
In a magical world, a prison would have several precautions they might take to prevent magical escapes:
(I assume that low-level magic is common, but more potent magic is beyond the reach of most groups.)
* Spellcasters might have helms locked onto their head. Made without eye openings, these would render them effectively blind. Clamping tightly against the jaw, they would allow the mouth to open barely far enough to eat or drink, inhibiting the caster's ability to use verbal components.
* Lead-lined cells and numerous identical cells would stymie attempts at scrying or mess up teleportation attempts.
* At checkpoints, prisoners and staff would be scanned with detect magic to forestall disguises or charms.
* Anti-invisibility measures might include numerous doors, floors rigged to make noise, trained dogs, and items like "bead curtains".
I had anticipated the problem with anti-magic necklaces,this is why i said "each one only works for one person and that person alone and does nothing else".
Of course i know such an item is a big bending the rules,as basically i'm not building it with magic items creation rules, i'm simply saying "it works that way because i say so".
Again, i'm an experienced GM, i'm not giving away what scenario i'm writing, and i'm not going to ruin the game for the fun of inflicting tortures on the players.
But there are a lot of very useful options here that will work equally well,and without giving the PCs more trasures.
The constantly beat them unconscious method might work. Some sort of antimagic field might work. You obviously indend for them to escape at some point. So . . . . I would drug them all this lets them remember all sorts of fun things the BBEG has in store for them but this particular rare drug not only gets them high, and compliant but it has the added effect of disrupting magic. When the time comes for them to have opportunity to escape. The drugg addicted guard who takes some of the meds used to pacifiy the prisoners takes too much and the meds effecting the PC's wear off.
Here's an idea I got from the boards that I used in a game once and it worked out for the best.
Ready?
Flesh to Stone.
Stops casters without killing or maiming or torturing them.
I had a big bad guy that was an ancient caster trapped in the body of an animated statue. He regained his powers and some followers and made a cult of The Stone King (his name) where he would turn dissidents as well as his most loyal subjects into statues via flesh to stone, then craft them into an animated object. When he defeated the PCs, instead of killing them, he imprisoned the casters to be processed and had the martial characters put to work.
Now, for the flesh to stone part, I created a special "cursed" mask that when applied to a person causes them to turn into stone for as long as they wear the mask. The two casters had these masks. I essentially roleplayed a breakout scene where the rogue and the fighter broke out of their prison, then saved their comrades from their fate of becoming statues, thereby escaping with their lives intact. Was fun and more interesting than an anti magic field.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The constantly beat them unconscious method might work. Some sort of antimagic field might work. You obviously indend for them to escape at some point. So . . . . I would drug them all this lets them remember all sorts of fun things the BBEG has in store for them but this particular rare drug not only gets them high, and compliant but it has the added effect of disrupting magic. When the time comes for them to have opportunity to escape. The drugg addicted guard who takes some of the meds used to pacifiy the prisoners takes too much and the meds effecting the PC's wear off.
Player: "What's the cost and DC to craft it? I have a +23 alchemy check, and I'd like to synthesize or create my own version of this poison; since I'm one of the greats ****ing chemists in the world."
I had anticipated the problem with anti-magic necklaces,this is why i said "each one only works for one person and that person alone and does nothing else".
Of course i know such an item is a big bending the rules,as basically i'm not building it with magic items creation rules, i'm simply saying "it works that way because i say so".
Again, i'm an experienced GM, i'm not giving away what scenario i'm writing, and i'm not going to ruin the game for the fun of inflicting tortures on the players.
But there are a lot of very useful options here that will work equally well,and without giving the PCs more trasures.
Consistency. Say it with me. Consistency. If you're an experienced GM, doing stuff like this will create a DC 25 illusion that you are in fact not an experienced GM but a level 1 GM with a -2 in your key GMing ability score.
The only way that would actually make any sense would be for all the uberly expensive necklaces to also be intelligent magic items; which could then be overpowered by the will of the wearer. Incidentally, intelligent items are even more costly than normal magic items (at least +500 gp minimum). If there was a single time I thought an antimagic field item would be a "good idea" from a usefulness perspective, it would be an intelligent one. The intelligent item could just ready its action to activate the field when something magic was going to attack you (such as when a dragon breaths fire at you).
I urge you, as one GM to another, do not ever do that. :P
Magic jar?
I'm going to disagree with all of the "BadWrongFun" posts above as you have already stated you're an experienced gm and are already aware of the hazards of the scenario you've outlined.
A dweomersink hazard (PF GM's Guide, p.244) I think is what you're looking for. Combine that with standard magical prisoner precautions, shackles, blindfold, & gag/magical silence and some sort of alarm and you should be pretty set. Make sure they never get enough sleep and eventually they should run out of spells. Add Menmonic Crystals (PF GM's Guide p. 245) for additional security.
Other thoughts:
If your big bad has sufficient resources and can create its own monsters, a doppleganger-esque or unique undead that can surround the character and wear its own IOUN stone of spell absorbtion may also work for your purposes.
Stoolie with a bell. Gag the PC (so they can't threaten or cajole the stoolie[s]) and put them in with a group of prisoners who know that they are rewarded or have their punishment lessened if they catch the PCs doing something.
If you are running that sort of campaign, you can also do pretty horrible things with magical healing and implanting things in or through the PCs, but that's not appropriate for all campaign types.
-TimD
I just asked how it could have been done.
I knew such items cannot be introduced,and again i should just say "it works this way,you cannot sell it, it is otherwise worthless.It doesn't have any power you can use in combat or to any advantage but it knows it has to keep you from using your powers,but it doesn't keep another spellcasters from doing so;only works for you."
And if the player asks "and who could possibly create such a magical necklace and how many are around" i should say "you don't know stop asking"......not exactly what a good GM should do.
|
|
@Gandall
Some people play in player entitlement games. Don't mind them if you actually have reasonable players who understand what "Guideline" and "Estimated" mean in reference to crafting magical items.
As to how to prevent your casters from casting, I recommend Geas.
Simple, reversible, effective.
|
Put them in half plate and strap a tower shield to them. 90% spell failure rate. Also armor checks apply to most of the skills used during an escape attempt. Grand total of 630 GP. Make it "broken" armor(as in the broken condition) and the armor check gets worse and the AC bonus drops.
A little creative GMing and you could simply have a special uniform for caster prisoners that causes 100% spell failure(maybe 99% for a fighting chance) and restricts movement.
@Gandall
Some people play in player entitlement games. Don't mind them if you actually have reasonable players who understand what "Guideline" and "Estimated" mean in reference to crafting magical items.
It's not about following the crafting custom items guidelines, it's about consistency, sure you as a GM might want to set the price of such an item at 2000gp but you know what happens next? you have the PCs crafting them and using them for solving their problems and you have the players asking why such a, relative, cheap item isn't widely known and used and if it is in fact widely known and used then why didn't the PCs know about it?
Throw a monk at them.
|
|
It's not about following the crafting custom items guidelines, it's about consistency, sure you as a GM might want to set the price of such an item at 2000gp but you know what happens next? you have the PCs crafting them and using them for solving their problems and you have the players asking why such a, relative, cheap item isn't widely known and used and if it is in fact widely known and used then why didn't the PCs know about it?@Gandall
Some people play in player entitlement games. Don't mind them if you actually have reasonable players who understand what "Guideline" and "Estimated" mean in reference to crafting magical items.
Because the item isn't an anti-magic zone, but a simple magical inhibitor placebo to hide the Geas. Or any number of other Macguffins you plug in that will only specifically allow you to restrain casters who were already unconscious so that they are not able to cast spells until they loose said bond.
Hell, you could say it was a knot this person knows how to tie if you like.
I agree you shouldn't allow high powered magic items into the game that throw magic creation out the window. And you don't have to if the item really only does the exact thing you need it to do in the exact circumstance you need to do it in.
Entitlement is the assumption that the players have all the knowledge of how to make or do such a thing just because the BBEG does.