Cleric based leader / supporter / healer / crossbower help


Advice


I am getting back into the game after a few years and am tearing my hair out trying to nail down my character. Our group is a wizard, sorcerer, magus (war warder), fighter, rogue, inquisitor (infiltrator), and me. 15 point buy, no 3rd party (besides the war warder).

I would like to play a cleric of Abadar (nobility/leadership and travel/trade), aiming to eventually use spell storing bolts in the the crossbow. I also want to use scrolls for utility spells, not sure if I want to craft them but it would make sense. I may also end up crafting wondrous items and/or magic weapons and armor. I am not intrested in melee but may use a flail or stitched sling to disarm and trip if the melee comes to me.

I cannot decide between human, halfling, or aasamir (with infernal bastard alteration and -2 to one stat for GM balance). So I need help with that decision, stat array, traits, feat planning, and level dip possibilities (I like falconer ranger and lore master fighter) to add skills/flavor/weapon proficiencies/feats.

The character will be a night watchman who is not the face, but rather the leader of this big group of people he considers to need sheparding. Combat focus is buffs/support/heal/occasional crossbow shot. Non combat focus is planning and preparation like Hanibal Smith of the A-team and guidance like Shepard Book of Firefly.

So, what should I aim for, what should I avoid?

Grand Lodge

Two questions.
Is Abadar a must?
Is crossbow a must?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Two questions.

Is Abadar a must?
Is crossbow a must?

I knew these questions would come up fast. They are not MUSTs but I like them for the theme of a watchman. Also, I like the crossbow for the crit, the prone firing, and the lack of need for strength.

Liberty's Edge

First thing you should note is spellstoring enchantment only applies to melee weapons. So no to the spell storing bolts. (Interestingly, you can use it on weapons that are both melee & range aka a dagger..)
However there are 3 ways to by pass this.
Route one is Arcane Archer. This will take a minimum of about 11 levels , assuming 1 for (insert arcane class here) 8 lvls of cleric for +6 attack bonus and heavy access to cleric list & 2 levels of arcane archer. This will allow you to spell store with bows, however, not crossbows.
Route 2 requires 4 levels of magus with the Myrmidarch archtype. Big advantage here is that you can make the ranged spellstrike with any weapon, but that 4 levels less of the cleric.

Route 3 is probably the sanest and least complicated option. Take one level of Spellslinger Wizard archtype and go the rest cleric. The spellslinger will allow you to cast your spell through your gun (though you will need to invest in the reach metamagic feat to use most of your touch spells, it is worth it because the gun adds an external bonus to the DC of your spells equal to the gun's enhancement bonus at the time of the casting.

So now the question is how attached are you to using a spellstoring ranged attack.

Next question you need to ask is of your GM, is he going to allow the leadership feat? Nobility Domain gains the feat for free, so you should no long before you get it whether he will allow it, considering you have a 6 player party to begin with.

Once you've got a these guys answered to you're liking let us know where you stand.

Just another idea you migh want to consider, look into team up feats with you're fellow party members. This would be the kind of thing leaders would likely do, working with their allies.


The character I'm playing currently in Kingmaker is almost the same as this.

I originally began play with the Nobility and Travel domains (that extra land speed and teleportation ability is nice), but changed the Travel Domain for Charm, which was much better and what I wanted to play in the first place (no idea why or how I overlooked/missed it).

He's modelled on Lelouch from the Animé of Code Geass and is the party Leader.

He leads from the back, but supports his allies well and moves to the front when Diplomacy is needed. He's pretty terrible with his crossbow, but can hit things, though his main ability is to turn the tide of battle in favour of his pawns (the other PC's) and himself.

He does this with Command, Murderous Command, Hold Person and Charm.

He's a Tactician that has the ability to Heal via Channel Energy (and Cure Light/Mod/Critical Wounds etc, by sacrificing his Enchantment Spells in dire situations), suggests the best methods to take down opponents and guides the party on what formation they should take. He also takes note of all quests and people he feels are important, aids them whenever possible, is a very good diplomat and always has his Crossbow loaded, ready to get the jump on someone before he reverts to using his spells once more, to tell enemies to kill each other, drop their weapons and fall to the floor.

We're level 3 at the minute (will be level 4 next session) and so far this guy is doing great. We also have a standard party Cleric who unfortunately lacks Selective Channeling, so my guy is actually a more efficient Cleric, even without the preparation of his cure spells.

Really, I don't think you need to worry too much.

Focus with a high Charisma if you want to lead, high Wisdom for your spells and channels and if your main focus is on your crossbow, I'd suggest taking Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. I miss everything because I don't have these, though as they help, I'll be taking them at around level 7 and 9. :)

If you focus in a particular School of Magic for offensive Spells, Spell Focus and Greater Focus wouldn't hurt either.

My build is here if this is of any help to you?:

Name: Lelouch
Class: Cleric of the Nobility and Charm Domains, follows own ideals

Ranks per level: 4
HP per level: 1d8 + 3 (Con + Toughness)
Point Buy: 20
Level: 1

HP: 13
AC: 17

7 str
14 con
13 dex
11 int
16 wis
16 cha (+2 Human)

Idea was for low Strength and Speed, making him physically weak and pathetic, but his Leadership abilities, Spells and Skills are what make him so valuable to the party.

Who needs Strength when you can get others to willingly or unwillingly do your bidding for you? "What's that? I can't take on that boss over there? No problem. I'll just command his henchmen to attack him while my pawns gang up on him. Problem solved!"

Fort: 4
Ref: 0
Will: 5

BAB: 0

Equipment: Breastplate Armour, Light Crossbow with 30 bolts.

Spells prepared:

0 Level - Create Water, Detect Magic, Purify Food and Drink
1st Level - Command, Murderous Command, Charm (Domain)

Skills:

Bluff
Diplomacy
Knowledge Nobility
Sense Motive

Feat Progression:

1: Toughness, Selective Channeling
3: Spell Focus (Enchantments)
5: Greater Spell Focus (Enchantments)
7: Heighten Spell
9: Point-Blank Shot
11: Precise Shot
13: Extend Spell
15: Bouncing Spell
17: Spell Perfection - True Geass (this is what I've named the improved Lesser Geas to)

You would need to adjust the Stats from the 20 point buy to a 15 point buy, but that's what I've gone with and he's been really fun to use, so enjoy your time teleporting around the battlefield to aid your allies! :p


I think my GM will allow the spell storing bolts, and I KNOW he will alloww leadership, we've talked about it. Also, he'll give me something equivalent to a feat with the crossbow, like free PBS or Precise Shot or Rapid Reload. This is based on the idea that I'm already proficient with it, so instead of the free feat of weapon proficiency, I get something else. Anyway, the crossbow will always be secondary to spells. Does that help clarify?


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Hmm, a free feat of Weapon Proficiency? What do you mean? Half-Elves can get Ancestral Arms which gives them a free Exotic Weapon Proficiency as their alternate racial trait, but no Race gets free weapon Proficiency. You just follow the proficiency's of your Class and those shouldn't be changed.

Also, in order to qualify for Precise Shot, you need Point Blank Shot as a pre-requisite.

I'd grab Spell Focus if you intend on de-buffing enemies, otherwise you don't need to worry about it as you'll just be healing your allies, so unless they're really against being healed, you won't need to worry about the DC of your spells (if Healing is your only focus).

Still, Precise Shot is nice because it gets rid of the penalties for firing into combat. So that's a must in my books.

Edit: Also, you don't need Crossbow Proficiency as a Cleric is already proficient with Simple Weapons and that comes under Simple Weapons.

If you wanted to use a Repeating Crossbow however, that would be a different story and you'd need Exotic Weapon Proficiency for it.


If I am a cleric of god A and you are a cleric of God B and all other things are equal but God A has favored weapon of martial or exotic and God B does not, then there is effectively a feat or trait worth of difference between the two clerics, depending on the weapon. The GM says this causes him to give a little something to simple weapon god worshipping clerics.


Ah, well there's nothing wrong with a house-ruling if it benefits everyone. :p

If he gives you Point Blank Shot for free, then all you need to do is take Precise Shot at level 1 and if you're Human, you get another feat for free anyway, so that's three feats instead of two at level 1, thanks to your race and your GM. :)

Liberty's Edge

If you're GM is cool with it then you've got plenty to work with. Featwise, foucus on you're crossbow. Though I agree the crit threat is sexy, it does take alot to get decent milage out of crossbows at later levels without some specialization. If he's giving out a free feat without concern for the requirements, ask for rapid reload. This will increase a) your mobility & b) your attaks per round in the long run.
Feats to look into:
Selective channel - the only feat none crossbow related on this list.
Point-blank shot
Precise shot
Deadly Aim
Cluster shot.

These 4 crossbow feat are the most critical for sucess with this weapon longrun after rapid reload.

After these are taken consider Rapid shot and possibly manyshot.
Don't forget to invest in both enchantments for the xbow and the bolts.
Also remeber to pick up different kind of bolts to bypass DR (aka silver, cold iron, adamantine, blunt etc.)

I know you're saying you're casting take priority, but as a buffer healer, there is little you need to look into other than possibly extend spell for you're spells that have good durations.


Yeah, I figure why waste a feat on something I can get a rod for, right? So, with these feats and this style in mind, what about race and level dips?


I usually go Human for the extra Feat and extra Skill per level (on top of your Favoured Class bonus). Though, Heart of the Wilderness is a really nice Alternate Racial Trait for Humans and will keep you alive for longer!

As for Level Dips, I'd honestly say to not bother, but if you're really set on it, Fighter would be your best bet.

My guy is staying Cleric throughout the whole Campaign, but with the Fighter, an extra feat wouldn't hurt.

What you have to remember though is that you really start to limit yourself where spells are concerned if you multi-class and for this build/concept, I really wouldn't go through with it.

Let's say you get Point-Blank Shot for free and go with being a Human. Your feat progression would go like this:

1. Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Selective Channel
3. Deadly Aim (needs a BAB of 1 and Dex 13)
5. Rapid Shot
7.
9. Clustered Shots (BAB 6)
11. Manyshot (Dex 17, BAB 6)
13.
15.
17.

Note: Fill in the above blanks with feats you'd like for this build. Extra Channel is always nice and toughness is an okay choice if you won't have much health. Otherwise things like Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude are good ones to choose from. :)

Most of the above use your Dex, so make sure you have at least a Dex of 15 at level one for Manyshot by level 11 as you can then use your two ability level increments to boost your Dex up to the required number. :)

Doing this will mean you'll probably have to lower and adjust things differently to my stats, but if you're not too worried about many extra spells, then a lower Wisdom is okay as you don't need to worry about your Spell DC's.

So, you could maybe go with these scores:

Str: 7
Dex: 15
Con: 11
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Cha: 16

A 7 Strength and Intelligence isn't ideal, especially if you want Skill Points, but you can sacrifice your +1hp for Favoured Class in favour of +1 Skill point for Favoured Class, so it's not terrible.

Still, it's a shame you don't have a 20 point buy, as the above stats would have been better. Maybe something like this:

Str: 7
Dex: 15
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 16

Half-elves are nice too, but are better for if you want to multi-class and use Exotic Weapons due to their Ancestral Arms Proficiency (usually), but they're still good without wanting any of that. They're immune to sleep effects and get a bonus against enchantment spells, along with skill focus in anything you want, low light vision and a bonus to perception.

Half-Elves are definitely a Race to consider. I love them, but the extra feat for being Human is what usually sways me. :p


Just thought I would post my final concept and see what people thought.

Middle Aged Gnome Cleric of Abadar (nobility/travel)

Stats: 10 14 8 14 16 12 (15 point buy)

Master Tinker and pyromaniac alternate racials.
Plan to use a flail for backup in the begining and hope to get into crafting magical arms and armore and perhaps wondrous items in the future.

Not sue on traits yet, but open to suggestion.

Character is a member of the local city watch and obviouslly a cleric. LN alignment and member of all the local civic organizations. Going to see how the True Neutral majority of party members test his patience and his faith.

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