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ARG brings Spell Resist to the masses


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at least 3 races in the ARG can trade traits for some version of SR the dwarf version is SR 5 + stat + character level.

Im not saying it horrible or overpowered. most monsters that matter are going to be higher level than the character and will thus have a really good chance to beet the PC SR.

I just wonder peoples opinnion on it because, while i have always wanted to give my character spell resist, its nearly sacred limit to monsters only made it special and now that is gone.

kind of sad to see that exclusivity go.

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

It's a trap.


whats a trap?


anyone could get it anyway. with a 4 feat investment

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blue_the_wolf wrote:
whats a trap?

Spell resistance. Enemies are more than likely going to overcome it, while your teammates also have to roll to overcome it in order to cast any spells on you. And if your cleric is not focused on overcoming spell resistance, when he goes to cast a beneficial spell on you in combat, he might end up wasting that spell to no effect.

Now, if you don't expect to receive such spells in combat, and plan on being healed outside of combat where you can lower your SR, it may work out for you. Or if your fellow spellcasters focus on buffing their caster level checks to overcome SR. But there will always be times when you need a spell cast on you, and your own SR thwarts you.


What TriOmegaZero said. The Dwarf version is particularly bad, since you are trading a +2 on saves vs an even broader category of effects for it. A Caster of equal level to you only has a 20% chance of losing a spell to the Dwarf's SR. A couple extra levels and Spell Penetration and it becomes a given that they will break through. Meanwhile, anyone who stuck with Hardy is still getting a +2 on relevant saves, even those from spells that didn't allow your SR in the first place.


Aasimar version was the best I saw:

"Exalted Resistance: An aasimar with this racial trait
gains spell resistance equal to 5 + her level against spells
and spell-like abilities with the evil descriptor, as well as
any spells and spell-like abilities cast by evil outsiders. This
racial trait replaces celestial resistance".


SR sucks. Even when it is class level +10 it sucks.

Player 1:You are bleeding out. Let me cast a spell to help you. Darn it, I could not bypass your SR. I will try again......repeats

Later on:
Player 1: I cast haste. Sorry Player 2 I could not bypass your SR. Maybe if you use a standard action to drop your SR I can hook you up next time.

edit:changed wording.


Matthias wrote:

Aasimar version was the best I saw:

"Exalted Resistance: An aasimar with this racial trait
gains spell resistance equal to 5 + her level against spells
and spell-like abilities with the evil descriptor, as well as
any spells and spell-like abilities cast by evil outsiders. This
racial trait replaces celestial resistance".

This is not too bad because it is selective. If SR worked like this it would be worth taking. I gave when I was supposed to have it, and I don't even ask for anything in return.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The idea that SR is a super overpowered awesome PC ability is indeed not as accurate as folks are saying.

SR is really really good for monsters (assuming there's at least one PC spellcaster, if not, then it's a 100% waste).

For PCs, who fight against enemy spellcasters MUCH LESS OFTEN than monsters and NPCs... spell resistance ends up applying to ally spells as much as or even more often than against enemy attacks.

It remains an excellent defense... but it can really come back and hurt you. I was playing a drow character in one of Jason Nelson's games, and now and then I'd get into a situation where my SR actively hurt me. Once, it even nearly killed me—I'd been knocked down to negative hp and was bleeding to death, and the cleric kept failing her SR check to get through my SR to cast cure wounds spells on me. I eventually made the stabilization check (or maybe I got a potion or something)... but yeah. Not as great as you might think.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Enemies are more than likely going to overcome it.

Enemies with class levels maybe. It's been my experience that most spellcasting monsters have a caster level lower than their CR. Of all those monsters in the spellcasting role in the Bestiary I, only the Azata, Nymph, Planetar, and Trumpet Archon stand out by having their CR = CL. The other 17 spellcasting monsters in the book have less then their CR (some far less).

I was also about to say that I remember a game developer stating that SR hurting you wasn't the intent of the ability, but then James popped in with his own unfortunate experiences.


Also wanted to add the following:

Beastiary Universal Monster Rules excerpt wrote:

Spell Resistance (Ex) A creature with spell resistance can avoid the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. To determine if a spell or spell-like ability works against a creature with spell resistance, the caster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level). If the result equals or exceeds the creature's spell resistance, the spell works normally, although the creature is still allowed a saving throw.

Format: SR 18; Location: Defensive Abilities.

Notice that a creature CAN avoid the effects of spells. It looks like it gets a choice to me. Unconscious characters are also considered willing for the purposes of receiving harmless spells too, aren't they?

EDIT: Yep, I'm right. The PRD glossary says a creature can choose to lower their SR in order to benefit from the positive spells from others.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've always run it that way, but I've never seen any concrete rules allowing it. It requires a standard action to lower it, but nothing says you can willingly fail/have the caster automatically succeed.

Of course, if anyone could find that loophole, it would be you. :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Looks like another ARG alarmist topic, quelled before the first page.

We should make a drinking game about this. A shot for every mountain made out of a molehole :)

Shadow Lodge

My liver can't take that.


Ravingdork wrote:

Also wanted to add the following:

Beastiary Universal Monster Rules excerpt wrote:

Spell Resistance (Ex) A creature with spell resistance can avoid the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. To determine if a spell or spell-like ability works against a creature with spell resistance, the caster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level). If the result equals or exceeds the creature's spell resistance, the spell works normally, although the creature is still allowed a saving throw.

Format: SR 18; Location: Defensive Abilities.

Notice that a creature CAN avoid the effects of spells. It looks like it gets a choice to me. Unconscious characters are also considered willing for the purposes of receiving harmless spells too, aren't they?

EDIT: Yep, I'm right. The PRD glossary says a creature can choose to lower their SR in order to benefit from the positive spells from others.

Now I am going to have to find the rule in PF, not 3.5 that says it takes a standard action to lower it. Actually I would not mind errata saying it is an immediate action, but I am sure I saw otherwise somewhere. Darn you RD. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Found it in less than one minute.

Quote:

Spell Resistance

Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. Some spells also grant spell resistance.

To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature's spell resistance. The defender's spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn't affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.

Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below.

A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature's next turn. At the beginning of the creature's next turn, the creature's spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).


Good for you Wraithstrike!

Please note, however, that it in no way contradicts what I said. :)

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Is this going to be like seeker and the qinggong monk?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Is this going to be like seeker and the qinggong monk?

?


Ravingdork wrote:

Good for you Wraithstrike!

Please note, however, that it in no way contradicts what I said. :)

You are correct, but I read your earlier post as saying you can do so without using a standard action. :)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Is this going to be like seeker and the qinggong monk?

I think I remember that thread. :)


Pomkin wrote:
anyone could get it anyway. with a 4 feat investment

4 Feats is a lot of Feats for classes that only get 10 or so...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Is this going to be like seeker and the qinggong monk?

No not that one.


Ravingdork wrote:
Notice that a creature CAN avoid the effects of spells. It looks like it gets a choice to me. Unconscious characters are also considered willing for the purposes of receiving harmless spells too, aren't they?

Creatures with SR always have it up, unless they consciously lower it using a standard action. Even on consecutive rounds the SR will re-initiate unless you continue to use a standard action to suppress it. It's something that is naturally inherent, and you must focus time and effort to suppress.

If a creature is 'dying' or unconscious it remains active. It would only go away when they are dead (too late to really help them.

The word can is not signifying choice, it signifies probability. SR is not an assurance, it is a possibility as there is a caster level check involved. This 'interpretation' is also consistent with the fact that time and effort is required to lower SR. It is also consistent with the fact that it is active and affects things even if you are not aware of them. If you had a choice, neither of these would be required as part of the ability. You can ask for clarity on the issue, but I think we both know what the answer will be.

It should be noted that SR does not prevent Ex or Su abilities, nor does it effect the creatures own spells, abilities or items.

SR can be powerful but it comes with it several difficulties. It's your choice to take it, but the majority of players see it as both hyped and more dangerous than it is worth.


I just find it crazy that in the Race builder you can get SR 11+Character level for 3 points.

A friggin feat cost 4.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It doesn't matter how many points it costs if the DM doesn't approve of it.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
It doesn't matter how many points it costs if the DM doesn't approve of it.

Well that doesn't really mean anything. A GM could disallow Humans. He could rule no use of Sneak.

It doesn't change the fact that Pathfinder came out with the rule.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber
Dragonamedrake wrote:

I just find it crazy that in the Race builder you can get SR 11+Character level for 3 points.

A friggin feat cost 4.

Which part of "SR is useless" didn't exactly register with ya, mate?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber
leo1925 wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Is this going to be like seeker and the qinggong monk?
No not that one.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *rams flaming forks in his eyes, jumps the window, lands on a mountain of burning toxic waste barrels*

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Yep to Wraithstrike and James Jacobs.

There's a reason why "let the core monk's spell resistance work only against offensive spells already!" was a fairly common houserule before Qinggong and other archetypes let 'em trade it off.


TakeSR but make sure your Healer is a Witch - Heal Hex is a SU and not subject to your SR :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
It doesn't matter how many points it costs if the DM doesn't approve of it.

Correct! And its still pants too!

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragonamedrake wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
It doesn't matter how many points it costs if the DM doesn't approve of it.
Well that doesn't really mean anything.

Neither did your complaint.


Uh... just like to point out that I personally never said it was overpowered, game breaking or any other negative connotation except to say that I was sad to see its semi-exclusivity to monsters diminished.

in fact, for those who missed it, I SPECIFICALLY said

Quote:
Im not saying it horrible or overpowered.

just putting that out there...


TriOmegaZero wrote:
blue_the_wolf wrote:
whats a trap?

Spell resistance. Enemies are more than likely going to overcome it, while your teammates also have to roll to overcome it in order to cast any spells on you. And if your cleric is not focused on overcoming spell resistance, when he goes to cast a beneficial spell on you in combat, he might end up wasting that spell to no effect.

Now, if you don't expect to receive such spells in combat, and plan on being healed outside of combat where you can lower your SR, it may work out for you. Or if your fellow spellcasters focus on buffing their caster level checks to overcome SR. But there will always be times when you need a spell cast on you, and your own SR thwarts you.

It would be good for an supertitious barbarian.


Nicos wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
blue_the_wolf wrote:
whats a trap?

Spell resistance. Enemies are more than likely going to overcome it, while your teammates also have to roll to overcome it in order to cast any spells on you. And if your cleric is not focused on overcoming spell resistance, when he goes to cast a beneficial spell on you in combat, he might end up wasting that spell to no effect.

Now, if you don't expect to receive such spells in combat, and plan on being healed outside of combat where you can lower your SR, it may work out for you. Or if your fellow spellcasters focus on buffing their caster level checks to overcome SR. But there will always be times when you need a spell cast on you, and your own SR thwarts you.

It would be good for an supertitious barbarian.

Why? The barbarian already has to make saves to receive beneficial spells. Which SR he might not even get to hope that he fails the save.


wraithstrike wrote:
Nicos wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
blue_the_wolf wrote:
whats a trap?

Spell resistance. Enemies are more than likely going to overcome it, while your teammates also have to roll to overcome it in order to cast any spells on you. And if your cleric is not focused on overcoming spell resistance, when he goes to cast a beneficial spell on you in combat, he might end up wasting that spell to no effect.

Now, if you don't expect to receive such spells in combat, and plan on being healed outside of combat where you can lower your SR, it may work out for you . Or if your fellow spellcasters focus on buffing their caster level checks to overcome SR. But there will always be times when you need a spell cast on you, and your own SR thwarts you.

It would be good for an supertitious barbarian.
Why? The barbarian already has to make saves to receive beneficial spells. Which SR he might not even get to hope that he fails the save.

The barbarian saves are already very high, few people would risk to cast beneficials spells on the barbarian, even without the SR.


Gorbacz wrote:
Dragonamedrake wrote:

I just find it crazy that in the Race builder you can get SR 11+Character level for 3 points.

A friggin feat cost 4.

Which part of "SR is useless" didn't exactly register with ya, mate?

If you think SR is useless I wonder if we play the same game. There are some issues with SR, but overall its an amazing ability.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Dragonamedrake wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
It doesn't matter how many points it costs if the DM doesn't approve of it.
Well that doesn't really mean anything.
Neither did your complaint.

You effectively just said "No I'm not you are!". My comment had relevance on the original post and convo. Come on dude.

The original poster was commenting on the ease of getting SR. I added that the Race builder can be used to get SR by spending 3 points. Thats not me complaining. Thats me adding to the conversation. Saying a GM can disallow it can be used to describe anything so really doesnt mean anything in the context of the conversation... The ease of getting SR by using the Advanced Race guide.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You find it crazy, that Paizo decided the ability costs less than you think it should. That's not crazy, it's a difference of opinion. And a meaningless one, because the rules are not set in stone.

Dragonamedrake wrote:
I just find it crazy that in the Race builder you can get SR 11+Character level for 3 points.


SR is good for NPC's. I don't see how it is "amazing" for PC's. Yeah it is good for stopping incoming enemy spells, but it also stops helpful spells.

I don't think the trade off is worth it. I guess if the GM throws a lot of SoS or SoD spells it might be worth more, but I would just try to boost my saves, and win initiative so I don't have to make so many saves.


Any mid to high level spellcaster should have the resources not only to protect himself, but to destroy the enemy himself. With such a character build, SR is much more highly valued as you never really needed those allied spells to begin with.


We are not just discussing the value to spellcaster though, but as whole, and many builds don't use too many spells that can be blocked by SR since many high level monsters have it also. Even with that aside, if someone thinks SR is an issue there are feats that boost your chance to bypass it, as well as items to boost caster level. By that time you are mathematically reducing SR+11 to SR+6 or less if you really care about having to bypass SR.

In short if the game world makes SR that much of a big deal then taking the measures to bypass it will be more common, so it still won't be that great, and now if your caster buddy wants to hook you up he has to make sure he can bypass your SR also.


@Omega - Yeah. I think its crazy its that low. I stated an opinion. Something you seem to do all the time. Thats not me complaining and its not meaningless. And how is it not set in stone? Its a rule in a book. Sure the GM can change it but that's a houserule and has nothing to do with the current conversation.

wraithstrike wrote:

SR is good for NPC's. I don't see how it is "amazing" for PC's. Yeah it is good for stopping incoming enemy spells, but it also stops helpful spells.

I don't think the trade off is worth it. I guess if the GM throws a lot of SoS or SoD spells it might be worth more, but I would just try to boost my saves, and win initiative so I don't have to make so many saves.

Buffing and healing during combat is rare. If you have SR up and your need a buff that badly you can withdraw and lower it.

Heck I have seen and played in groups with zero healers other then a wand of cure light. For groups like that SR does nothing but help. And NPC casters are more common then your trying to convince people.

SR is a great ability for out of combat situations also. Magical Traps become almost laughable.

Shadow Lodge

Pssh. I state facts.


Dragonamedrake wrote:

@Omega - Yeah. I think its crazy its that low. I stated an opinion. Something you seem to do all the time. Thats not me complaining and its not meaningless. And how is it not set in stone? Its a rule in a book. Sure the GM can change it but that's a houserule and has nothing to do with the current conversation.

wraithstrike wrote:

SR is good for NPC's. I don't see how it is "amazing" for PC's. Yeah it is good for stopping incoming enemy spells, but it also stops helpful spells.

I don't think the trade off is worth it. I guess if the GM throws a lot of SoS or SoD spells it might be worth more, but I would just try to boost my saves, and win initiative so I don't have to make so many saves.

Buffing and healing during combat is rare. If you have SR up and your need a buff that badly you can withdraw and lower it.

Heck I have seen and played in groups with zero healers other then a wand of cure light. For groups like that SR does nothing but help. And NPC casters are more common then your trying to convince people.

SR is a great ability for out of combat situations also. Magical Traps become almost laughable.

The healing is rare in my games, but but when you need it, you need it. As for buffing, it depends on the group. The guy that plays the cleric in my group often buffs first, and waits into battle second.

Enemy casters, which includes monsters with SLA's are not to much of an issue because saves are normally high. Even without the spells don't often do a lot if they are SoS spells. Blasting spells normally do half damage even on save, but most NPC casters are not built around blasting so the damage is negligible.

I think you can play without primary healers, and still get by better without SR. Now if you are in an all melee party* then I can see SR being more valuable since you don't have any friendly spells to worry about, but that is rare though.

*also includes no buffing

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Ravingdork wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Enemies are more than likely going to overcome it.

Enemies with class levels maybe. It's been my experience that most spellcasting monsters have a caster level lower than their CR. Of all those monsters in the spellcasting role in the Bestiary I, only the Azata, Nymph, Planetar, and Trumpet Archon stand out by having their CR = CL. The other 17 spellcasting monsters in the book have less then their CR (some far less).

I was also about to say that I remember a game developer stating that SR hurting you wasn't the intent of the ability, but then James popped in with his own unfortunate experiences.

SR wasn't originally ever intended to be an ability that's "easy" for PCs to get, frankly, and as such it was never heavilly playtested, so I suspect that the concept that SR hurts PCs as much or more than it helps them never really came onto the radar of the 3rd edition design team. I'm not sure, though... I was on the periphery of things at that point.


Dragonamedrake wrote:
Buffing and healing during combat is rare. If you have SR up and your need a buff that badly you can withdraw and lower it.

Haste, prayer. Most of the time any 1 min/level buffs are hard to be cast prior to combat unless one plays game when world only react to character actions instead of living on its own and encounters only start when the party actually triggers after they had a chance to prepare themselves.

Silver Crusade

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber

Also, it kinda blows when you cast an emergency plane shift in order to bail your party from an ambush on Abyss only to see Johnny left behind to be violated by spiked tentacles of forced intrusion just because his SR decided to say hello at the worst moment possible.


Gorbacz wrote:
Also, it kinda blows when you cast an emergency plane shift in order to bail your party from an ambush on Abyss only to see Johnny left behind to be violated by spiked tentacles of forced intrusion just because his SR decided to say hello at the worst moment possible.

Does anyone have that spell stated out for pathfinder? I only have it for 3.5

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