Advanced Race Guide: Naga Aspirant Druid archetype & Naga Shape

[Heroics]

Does the Naga Shape replacement ability from the Naga Aspirant Druid archetype mean that there is no continued progression for the base druid Wild Shape class ability?

Does this also remove the previously gained base druid Wild Shape class ability (gained normally at level 4)?

What brings this question up is the last line of the ability "This otherwise works like and replaces wild shape.". (Emphasis mine)

I really like this Archetype otherwise, however the loss of other forms is a bit of a deal breaker (intended for PFS - yes I have the appropriate chronicle sheet - so house ruling is not an option).

Naga Shape:

Naga Shape (Su): At 6th level, the naga aspirant can use her
wild shape ability (gained at 4th level, as normal) to assume
the form of a true naga. This effect functions in a similar
manner to a shapechange spell with the following exception.
The druid’s true naga form is unique, representing her
personal evolution. When taking naga form, the nagaji’s body
transforms into that of a large serpent, though she keeps her
own head. The naga aspirant loses her limbs and her size
increases by one category, granting her a +4 size bonus to
Strength and Constitution, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, and a +2
enhancement bonus to her natural armor bonus. She gains a
+10 enhancement bonus to land speed and a bite attack that
deals 1d6 points of damage. She can cast verbal spells in this
form, but cannot cast spells with other components without
metamagic or feats such as Natural Spell. This otherwise
works like and replaces wild shape.

[Cheapy]

My take is that you still have 4th level version of wildshape.

At 6th level, you just get a True Unique Naga form to shift into as well. But I've asked myself this question frequently, so FAQ'd it.

[Red-Assassin]

I think this should aslo be faq'd. I agree with cheapy on this one.

[Belafon]

I don't see how you can read this as not allowing normal wildshape. Here's the first line of the ability:

Quote:

At 6th level the naga aspirant can use her wild shape ability (gained at 4th level, as normal) to assume the form of a true naga.

The ability is gained as normal and it doesn't say anything about losing other wild shape forms like the cave druid (for example) does.

[Red-Assassin]

Belafon, I guess it depeneds how you read it.

Does this replace Wild Shape with Naga-shape.

It states you gain Wild Shape normally, at 4th level.

It states it gains Naga Shape at level 6 works like but replaces Wild Shape at level 6. (Why is the spell shape change mentioned at all a 9th level spell that allows you to shape change as a free action)

Augemented Form at level 9 cleary as no relation to Wild Shape ability replacement.

So what happens with wild shape at level 8. Do you gain regular shape change abilites past level 6. Does the 6th level ability actually replace the Beast shape 2 version of shape change?

I will present 2 options.

First player friendly after level 6 you still gain the ability to shape change via beast shape 3, 4 and others. This would be much more open to players. I think this is the intent of the effect, or the naga form is just an added form, in addition to regular forms.

Second Player unfriendly, after gaining Naga-Shape you can't gain more shape changing as far as beast shape or elemental form, stuck with soley Naga Form. Augmented form really is a slow progression if this is the case, as well doesn't follow wild shape progression.

Why I think that RAI follows the first option. The abilites with augmented form doesn't really make the form to powereful. I could see this converted to a bloodline if this was the case, since thematically Naga's are sorceror based, or another option to replace Wis to Cha as the main caster stat.

[cartmanbeck]

Red-Assassin wrote:

Belafon, I guess it depeneds how you read it.

Does this replace Wild Shape with Naga-shape.

It states you gain Wild Shape normally, at 4th level.

It states it gains Naga Shape at level 6 works like but replaces Wild Shape at level 6. (Why is the spell shape change mentioned at all a 9th level spell that allows you to shape change as a free action)

Augemented Form at level 9 cleary as no relation to Wild Shape ability replacement.

So what happens with wild shape at level 8. Do you gain regular shape change abilites past level 6. Does the 6th level ability actually replace the Beast shape 2 version of shape change?

I will present 2 options.

First player friendly after level 6 you still gain the ability to shape change via beast shape 3, 4 and others. This would be much more open to players. I think this is the intent of the effect, or the naga form is just an added form, in addition to regular forms.

Second Player unfriendly, after gaining Naga-Shape you can't gain more shape changing as far as beast shape or elemental form, stuck with soley Naga Form. Augmented form really is a slow progression if this is the case, as well doesn't follow wild shape progression.

Why I think that RAI follows the first option. The abilites with augmented form doesn't really make the form to powereful. I could see this converted to a bloodline if this was the case, since thematically Naga's are sorceror based, or another option to replace Wis to Cha as the main caster stat.

Yeah I think it was intended that you keep regular wild shape and just ALSO can turn into a Naga, which gets better at higher levels. I don't think the way it's written precludes this, so I'd say we should assume this until a FAQ is written.

[Cheapy]

Hmm

Quote:

True Naga (Su)

At 20th level, a naga aspirant metamorphoses into a unique naga. Her wild shape form becomes her natural form, though she can transform into her original nagaji shape at will. Her creature type permanently changes to aberration.

This ability replaces wildshape (at will).

That phrasing is curious. Perhaps they really do only get the Naga form after level 6.

[cartmanbeck]

Cheapy wrote:

Hmm

Quote:

True Naga (Su)

At 20th level, a naga aspirant metamorphoses into a unique naga. Her wild shape form becomes her natural form, though she can transform into her original nagaji shape at will. Her creature type permanently changes to aberration.

This ability replaces wildshape (at will).

That phrasing is curious. Perhaps they really do only get the Naga form after level 6.

Damn... that's a good point. Hmm... that would sure suck, right there!

[Red-Assassin]

cartmanbeck wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hmm

Quote:

True Naga (Su)

At 20th level, a naga aspirant metamorphoses into a unique naga. Her wild shape form becomes her natural form, though she can transform into her original nagaji shape at will. Her creature type permanently changes to aberration.

This ability replaces wildshape (at will).

That phrasing is curious. Perhaps they really do only get the Naga form after level 6.

Damn... that's a good point. Hmm... that would sure suck, right there!

Well that would be a good indicator for option 2.

Though it still has the problem refering to the level 4 druid option instead of the sixth level archetype power of Naga - Form.

Feels like a double negative, indicates a need of a FAQ.

If you replace the wording of "wildshape form" with Naga - Form, it would fit better with option one. I could see it using wildshape for forms out-side of Naga Form. But specifically to the base Nagai form, as at will. Other wildshape still limited to times per day.

[Cheapy]

I'm not so sure it'd suck. They get some extremely powerful toys as it is. Some of the best wizard spells in existence? Check. Divine Power? Check.

At-will AoE Gaze Attack charm person? Everyone within 30' of the druid will be Charmed.

[Mojorat]

I was looking at this at the other day. I think the nag a dorm is their only form. The reason being this. It gives an enhancement bonus to AC. Basically this means it doesn't stack with an amulate of natural armour or barkskin.

If they still had their normal forms there would actually be no reason to use the nag a form. Because a mirror imaged image armoured bark skinned dire tiger who casts spells would be way better than the naga form.

However if they loose other shapes it makes more sense.

Just cannot figure a good stat setup for this at to meet. Various nag a themes.

[cartmanbeck]

Cheapy wrote:

I'm not so sure it'd suck. They get some extremely powerful toys as it is. Some of the best wizard spells in existence? Check. Divine Power? Check.

At-will AoE Gaze Attack charm person? Everyone within 30' of the druid will be Charmed.

You have a point, but that one time when you need to fly across a chasm you're going to wish you could still turn into a bird...

[Red-Assassin]

Yeah Cheapy, the spell replacement of replaces sponateous though. I do agree that that shores up the druid spell list. More so that 1/2 the selected spells do not have a somatic component. Stopping at 4th level is nice and may require a couple meta magic feats to spread spells to higher levels.

The other problem is half of the Naga gained abilities at 9th and higher uses 2 different stats for dc's CHA and Con.

Another problem with Naga form it doesn't really allow you to copy a certain Naga.

So as a 6th level power that you may have to keep. The 1D6 damage seams to be wrong instead of 1d8. The creature also looses reach that some Naga's have.

The gain of 4 con is nice though NA is a bit lower by 2. Then as you progress past beast shape 2 the powers certainly loose compared to beast shape 3 and 4.

Thematically it is still a very unique archetype. I will definately try to create one, though it would need to be pretty MAD.

Charm is nice though it would be a low DC unless you pump CHA up.

[Cheapy]

You could try fireballing the chasm....

normal druids can't do that....

[Red-Assassin]

Fire Domain druids can..

[Red-Assassin]

Or you could just cast beast shape X at 10 minute a level.

[Cheapy]

Red-Assassin wrote:

Charm is nice though it would be a low DC unless you pump CHA up.

You'll find that low DCs don't matter as much when it's an at-will thing.

Fails the first time? Keep on doing it!

(And when I first read this archetype, I immediately went to look up the exact rules of gaze attacks. IIRC, the wording of this basically means it's always on, although a standard action use for a single person is available.)

[Cheapy]

Fire Druids aren't normal :D

I just learned that druids can't cast Beast Shape. Funny, that. Makes some sense though.

[Red-Assassin]

Dang cheapy didn't know that about beast shape.... though fur domain is an option.

I like the sleep poison, but even these are around 13th level or so.

[Cheapy]

Actually, I'd guess that the gaze attack thing is probably going to be errata'd.

[davidernst11]

I'm pretty sure this is the interpretation:

Naga Shape does indeed replace Wild Shape (as per the big black bolded text in the Druid description of the Core Rulebook) but according to Naga Shape, a Druid gains wild shape at level 4, as normal.

There is no Wild Shape II or Wild Shape III, but only Wild Shape, which the description says you gain. "As normal" means that its abilities increase with your Druid level at the normal two level increments.

The reason why it says it "replaces Wild Shape" is that without that phrase, by RAW you would have both Wild Shape and Naga Shape, which includes Wild Shape. Therefore you would gain it twice, giving you twice the amount of Wild Shape uses at each level (2 at level 4, 4 at level 6, 6 at level 8, etc.) That phrase was needed to keep rules lawyers a way to exploit a vaguely written description as having two separate abilities, which are nearly the exact same thing.

So there is no penalty here, only a benefit.

[Red-Assassin]

Dave thanks for the feedback. I think I will make one.

[DrakeRoberts]

Anything relatively definitive on this yet? I'm contemplating making one for PFS, but want to make sure that I'm not going to be limiting myself to the one form if I do. Thanks!

[Samasboy1]

I think I agreeing with David here, but I think your naga form is in addition to your regular wild shape forms.

My reasoning is that the first line of the Naga Shape ability reads, "At 6th level, the naga aspirant can use her wild shape ability (gained at 4th level, as normal) to assume to form of a true naga."

This is similar to the wording in the regular Wildshape ability itself in the Core rulebook, which reads, "At 6th level, a druid can can also use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal or Small elemental."

The word "can" in both sentences is permissive, adding options; not mandatory, setting a requirement. No where in the ability does it state you lose all other forms of wild shape.

Further, the last sentence in Naga Shape reads, "This otherwise works like and replaces wild shape."

Since the ability does specifically remove the ability to change into other forms, "works like" wild shape I take to mean advances wild shape just like normal but for the addition of the above ability. It "replaces" wild shape in that it is an alternate class feature from a racial archetype and must replace the standard, unaltered class feature.

If you wanted to limit it, I would say the Naga Aspirant at least keeps the base (beast form 1) wild shape even if he loses the advancements starting at level 6 (beast form 2 and up, elemental body 1 and up, plant shape 1 and up) in favor of Naga Shape; again since nothing in the ability specifically calls out its loss.

[Taenia]

I think I may be reading this differently. The first line says you gain Naga Shape

At 6th level, the naga aspirant can use her
wild shape ability (gained at 4th level, as normal) to assume
the form of a true naga.

The last line:

This otherwise works like and replaces wild shape.

I interpreted this to me that you now have Wild Shape which advances completely normally except at any time in addition to your normal options for Wild Shape (Plant, Animal, Elemental as per level of druid) you add Naga to that list. So when it says it replaces wild shape it isn't preventing you from changing into any of the forms its just adding a form to the allowed list.

So at 10th level you could change into Animals (Beast Shape 3), Plants (Plant Shape 2), Elementals (Elemental Form 3) and Naga Shape, for 10 hours, 4/day

The Naga Form advances through the augmented form ability

[cartmanbeck]

Taenia wrote:

I think I may be reading this differently. The first line says you gain Naga Shape

At 6th level, the naga aspirant can use her
wild shape ability (gained at 4th level, as normal) to assume
the form of a true naga.

The last line:

This otherwise works like and replaces wild shape.

I interpreted this to me that you now have Wild Shape which advances completely normally except at any time in addition to your normal options for Wild Shape (Plant, Animal, Elemental as per level of druid) you add Naga to that list. So when it says it replaces wild shape it isn't preventing you from changing into any of the forms its just adding a form to the allowed list.

So at 10th level you could change into Animals (Beast Shape 3), Plants (Plant Shape 2), Elementals (Elemental Form 3) and Naga Shape, for 10 hours, 4/day

The Naga Form advances through the augmented form ability

This is my interpretation, as well.

[prototype00]

Hmm, the staff marked this question unclear, so perhaps we should clear it up for them (I might make a new faq thread if people are interested).

Would the clearest question be:

Does the Naga Aspirant get the following abilities:

Quote:

At 6th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal or a Small elemental. When taking the form of an animal, a druid's wild shape now functions as beast shape II. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape functions as elemental body I.

At 8th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, a Medium elemental, or a Small or Medium plant creature. When taking the form of animals, a druid's wild shape now functions as beast shape III. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body II. When taking the form of a plant creature, the druid's wild shape functions as plant shape I.

At 10th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large elemental or a Large plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body III. When taking the form of a plant, the druid's wild shape now functions as plant shape II.

At 12th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge elemental or a Huge plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body IV. When taking the form of a plant, the druid's wild shape now functions as plant shape III.

prototype00

[shadowkras]

I bumped into this question yesterday, any official ruling was given about this?

Here is an example from the same book that says the replaces the animal and elemental options:

Treesinger Elf Druid Archetype

Spoiler:

Wild Shape (Su)

At 4th level, a treesinger gains the ability to wild shape. This ability functions at her actual druid level. A treesinger cannot use wild shape to adopt an animal or elemental form. Instead, when she gains this ability at 4th level, she can assume the form of a Small or Medium plant. This functions as plant shape I, except the treesinger does not yet gain access to the constrict or poison abilities of the plant form assumed.

At 8th level, the treesinger's wild shape gains the full range of abilities available from plant shape I. At 10th level, a treesinger can assume the form of a Large or Tiny plant. Her wild shape ability now functions like plant shape II.

At 12th level, a treesinger can assume the form of a Huge plant. Her wild shape ability now functions like plant shape III.

This ability replaces, and otherwise functions like, the normal druid wild shape ability.