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What would a non Asian monk look like mechanically?


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Well after another "I just don't like Monks thread", something struck me. Several people don't dislike the class so much as the name. At least 3 posters mentioned an incompatible attitude between Kwi Chang Caine and Friar Tuck. If the Shaolin influence on the Monk CLASS makes the Friar Tuck class unavailable due to nothing more than nomenclature, what's the fix?

What does Friar Tuck, as a class entail?
What is needed in a non martial monk?

Tuck was clearly able to defend himself in fiction. In the real world the Jesuit Orders were not incapable of combat, at least to likely allegorical stories I encountered years ago.

In my personal games I'm more likely to use Monks (the class) as a political or philosophical devotee moreso than a religious order.

Thoughts?
If the monk were renamed as Mystic Warrior, what would the new Monk look like?
And more importantly, is it necessary?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Necessary? Nah.

What would a non-eastern monk look like? Theologian cleric is my guess. Maybe Evangelist.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think a non Asian monk can look like anything you want. That's the freedom I want with the monk. Then a monk order can be something that fits the location.


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A non-asian monk would look like a cleric or a paladin depending on whether they were militant (The Knights Templar, The Knights of St John, The Teutonic Knights) or not.


Yeah that was my thought.
If Desna has monks they would be Clerics or Adepts.

Alternatively I read a book recently called the "Left Hand of God" by Paul Hoffman, it has a little kid that was raised in a monastery that's VERY European and very martial in nature, the kid isn't using Kung Fu so much but he is deffinately a nasty piece of work in a fight. The religious overtones are heavy handed and unflattering to certain branches of Christianity but the book is unflattering to almost all of it's source material.
It's an interesting read for someone trying to reconcile the Monk class from a Western Perspective. Asmodeus or Zon Kuthon would've liked the monastery this kid was raised and trained in.


I figure a non asian monk would be the expert class with a bunch of ranks in knowledge religion and craft: wine.


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I call them Duelists and "skin" the unarmed attacks as their rapier. And just calling some of the other powers/abilities by other names.

I have a pretty awesome Princess bride style Swashbuckler built on the monk class.

Improved Dirty Trick is astounding for such things as popping belt buckles to drop pants, cutting drapes from the wall to drop over head and blind or entangle, Cutting nearby candles in such a way as to spray wax and Dazzle. etc.

He's great fun and the mechanics of the class don't change a whit. Just the way I say he looks and acts.


The Friar Tuck problem is terminology. He can be a cleric or inquisitor or ranger.

The non-asian skilled combatant problem should be solved by making all PCs assumed to have the basic competency to hit people with their fists and use combat maneuvers effectively.

Get rid of improved unarmed strike and let anyone use their feet or elbows. Get rid of AoOs for combat maneuvers. The +2 to CMB for improved maneuvers would still be worth a feat if the tax prerequisites were removed. This way everyone has a basic functional proficiency in common fighting techniques at level 1. This way even rogues can fight dirty instead of it being a fighter or monk only privilege. And pretty much just one archetype of each at that.


If you read the demon war by R.A. Salvatore the enemy at the beginning is part of a order of monks who are non Asian yet practice martial arts.


BltzKrg242 wrote:

I call them Duelists and "skin" the unarmed attacks as their rapier. And just calling some of the other powers/abilities by other names.

I have a pretty awesome Princess bride style Swashbuckler built on the monk class.

The special monk weapons give the monk an inbuilt asian flavor. In order to westernize it you might want to give them a favored weapon (Maybe decided by their monastery or whatever--that is, DM controlled--maybe just chosen by the player) from the martial weapon list; maybe even one exotic like a bastard sword or something.

Also if you've got like a month to spare you might try reading Anathem by Neal Stephenson. Complex book, but it's got monastic characters who know some martial arts and aren't definitionally asian.

Cheliax

Chuck Norris, any MMA style fighter, the drunk who picks fights as professional sporting events....


Tetori Monk would be a perfect fit for Nacho Libre...


You could run one as a Pankration fighter by concentrating on strikes, grabs, and maybe trips. Although, if you use a cestus you are worse off than fighting with bare fists by the rules, so you should ask your GM to let you use monk's unarmed damage rather than the 1d4 of cestus. Making an MMA style fighter probably wouldn't be much different, grappling, locks, and strikes are big in both sports. That's going to be my next monk character, though I'm leaning towards going with the Martial Artist archetype instead of the Tetori one, even though the Tetori would work well with it's extra grappling goodies.


I have 2 Aldori Monasteries in my Kingmaker campaign, using 2 different archetypes.
They get Aldori Dueling swords as monk weapons.

There is an Erasil monastery, it's got a few Rangers a couple of Clerics and a couple of Adepts, the rest are commoners.

There is also a Monastery of Aroden, the last of his faithful in a hidden corner of the River Kingdoms. Mostly Vanilla Monks with a Ranger or two rounding out the leveled non NPC classes.

Then we've got a big, big monastery for the Drunken Hero, it's got a little of everything but it's more of a walled farm at this point.


Well the monk certainly has an asian inspiration. So moving it back to a setting with a western influence changes a few things. However there are numerous wrestling, boxing, other martial arts to pick from that mimic the monks martial ability. Additionally you have in western christianity mistics in the orthodox church, further there are gnostic sects which philosocically organize themselves similar to monks. So while it may be dificult to pin point a historical western order. It is possible to think of a western feeling sect that uses unarmed combat and techniches rather than falling on exotic monk weapons perhaps use simple weapons or bludgeoning weapons (priests prior to the creation of the Templar order were not allowed to use swords to avoid, arterial spray, their hope by using the mace or morning start to incompacitate the enemy rather than out right kill them or to make killing them unintentional freeing them from direct responsibility of the opponents death). Many monk weapons are adaptations of farming impliments so a western equivelent might rather than the eastern monk weapons have proficientcies in the sickle, and scythe. Just as eastern monks made more martial versions of these weapons so to the these western orders might use a war scythe or a kama (better sickle).

Hope that helps.


Monk weaponry is a hindrance both mechanically and thematically. We've houseruled some silly stuff in over the years weaponwise, yet still the fighters and rangers outdamage them anyway.


I almost forgot. Chi.

That pesky eastern concept. For a western feeling monk the mechanic of chi does not change though for a gnostic like sect it would be secret knowledge giving them mind over matter control of their body and the energies of their bodies. For a contemplative mystic that feels more like the mideval priest this would be assistance from God. Take the example of Samson from the Bible he was not just strong, "The Spirit of the Lord came over Samson and he slew 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of a donkey." So it is more than strength mentioned here it is a broader help. These western monks might rather than look to chi look to the dieties they have devoted themeselves and their bodies to for this divine assistence.


I think monk weapons should change with the flavor. As it is they grant several exotic weapon proficencies when they grant the standard "eastern weapons" to the monk list so I have no problem adding other exotics to the monk if the flavor is different.


Remember too, that a monk is a well-disciplined ascetic, with a non-martial philosophy. They could be scholars, they could be scientists, they could be chroniclers, travelers, a geographic society,...they are a cloistered organization existing for academic and philosophical pursuit. Whatever fighting prowess they possess, they have in order to protect themselves and (perhaps) the locals whom they help support (or the other way around). They're not soldiers.

Remember that to pick up a sword, and put on a coat of mail, was to be a man-at-arms. You were a soldier, and of a bent to use force and stick metal bits through other people in order to make your will known. Monks avoid this deliberately. They don't serve in armies.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
zagnabbit wrote:
Monk weaponry is a hindrance both mechanically and thematically. We've houseruled some silly stuff in over the years weaponwise, yet still the fighters and rangers outdamage them anyway.

It's almost as if they aren't intended to be huge damage dealers, huh.

Silver Crusade

I briefly played a Shaonti "monk" who looked more like conan the barbarian than Jet Li. You don't have to describe unarmed strike as Kung Fu.


Hitdice wrote:

The special monk weapons give the monk an inbuilt asian flavor. In order to westernize it you might want to give them a favored weapon (Maybe decided by their monastery or whatever--that is, DM controlled--maybe just chosen by the player) from the martial weapon list; maybe even one exotic like a bastard sword or something.

Also if you've got like a month to spare you might try reading Anathem by Neal Stephenson. Complex book, but it's got monastic characters who know some martial arts and aren't definitionally asian.

i don't even have them use specialized weapons. Mechanically everything stays the same, I just call it something else. Sai=Swordbreaker dagger etc.


I always like the 3.5e class Archivist (from Heroes of Horror) as a western-style monk.

Archivist was a divine spellcaster that learned spells like a wizard and chose spells from the cleric spell list at level-up but could scribe any divine spell from any divine class into its prayerbook. It also had some bard-like qualities in that it could make knowledge checks in combat and tell the party how to better fight the monster, granting them combat bonuses.

I always thought of the archivist as fitting the western-style monk image of studying in books and scribing them, and having their divine magic based around that.


Cheapy wrote:
zagnabbit wrote:
Monk weaponry is a hindrance both mechanically and thematically. We've houseruled some silly stuff in over the years weaponwise, yet still the fighters and rangers outdamage them anyway.
It's almost as if they aren't intended to be huge damage dealers, huh.

Agreed.

I'm not in the camp that bemoans the monk not getting to add +23 to damage. The mechanical issue is that their weapons are just slightly modified versions of simple and martial weapons. That for whatever reason have substandard characteristics but also cost less. Thematically because unlike a sickle, which is a farming implement a Kama costs less, despite being a deliberately weaponized design. That's counter-intuitive.

Wose still they picked strange choices for the baseline starter weapons. The Nunchuks were a relatively obscure weapon prior to Bruce Lee's film career. The Siangham? In twenty years of martial arts tournaments I've seen it performed twice. The only times I've even seen them, even as wall mounts. The Kama is considered a fairly modern weapon style by some martial arts historians.
But the Butterfly Sword is the foundation of Wushu weapon styles, it's a starter weapon style. Costs a feat. Jo Sticks? They were in the original Player's Handbook and are the starter TWF form of Escrima and at least 2 other styles I've encountered. Not even statted in 3.x.

I don't blame Paizo, they just copied and pasted. But seriously are daggers as flurry weapons game breaking, or cause a suspension of disbelief?

The biggest issue I have is printed adventures. How often do you see magical "monk" weapons? That's a penalty for monk players right out of the gate. But Kukri, I've seen those so often it makes my head hurt. This is a mechanical issue as well.


I liked the Archivist as well. I still use the class occasionally for Sages.

This thread pointed out a glaring hole in my home games, I've never used a masked grappler. I'll get on a Luchadore soon.


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This is really more a question of semantics than of Asian vs. non-Asian monks. Most Buddhist and Shinto monks don't train in the marital arts. But in 1st edition D&D (actually in the supplements to the basic books), a monk class was created that was based on Shaolin monks and that had martial powers.

Since its a fantasy game, one could certainly have the monk class represent any sort of weird, martial ascetic.

Non-martial ascetics existed (exist) in a a variety of cultures. See the wikipedia article for more info.

Non-martial ascetic characters could be represented by clerics, druids, or oracles. A person could write up an even more non-martial class, but since this is a class for adventurers, it seems somewhat dumb to even bother.


That is why I started the thread.

I've used adepts and experts for years for monastic residents. It works fine with the occasional PC class thrown in.

Basically in the other thread there was a sense that somehow the monk class hurt the western concept of a religious ascetic. Personally I think spellcasting hurts the concept of the western ascetic far more than a martial themed mystic warrior who happens to have been trained in a monastic modeled school.

Spellcasting takes faith away from the pious adherents that would otherwise join a monastic order or a nunnery. Spellcasting actually makes faith a path to personal power not a path to personal enlightenment or spiritual grace. That's the 800 pound gorilla that never gets addressed in the monk hate threads. To often the monk is pointed to as a blasphemy to medieval European tradition while the real culprit, the one that destroys all pretense of historical accuracy is ignored.
Just as soon as you say medieval Europe plus magic, it's not medieval Europe any longer. In medieval Europe the spellcasters would have been burned at the stake, including the divine casters, because to the peasants magic is magic. The Paladins would probably skate by, they don't get spells until they are high enough level that their reputations precede them. Alchemists might fare well too but more for their lack of spell casting. Bards could be subtle I suppose but mostly any spellcaster is going to be seen as being in league with the devil. If you dispose of that, that core superstition and prejudice, it's not really medieval Europe.


Hitdice wrote:
BltzKrg242 wrote:

I call them Duelists and "skin" the unarmed attacks as their rapier. And just calling some of the other powers/abilities by other names.

I have a pretty awesome Princess bride style Swashbuckler built on the monk class.

The special monk weapons give the monk an inbuilt asian flavor. In order to westernize it you might want to give them a favored weapon (Maybe decided by their monastery or whatever--that is, DM controlled--maybe just chosen by the player) from the martial weapon list; maybe even one exotic like a bastard sword or something.

Also if you've got like a month to spare you might try reading Anathem by Neal Stephenson. Complex book, but it's got monastic characters who know some martial arts and aren't definitionally asian.

Crusader's Flurry allows the Monk to flurry with their god's favored weapon.


I think root cause of your question (as well as many others) is the tendency of people to cling to the letter of the rulebooks like a drunk clings to a fence, forgetting that these are roleplaying games we play, built to encourage imagination. Rules are here to be a crutch, not a railroad.

What's in a class name? Not much - at least there shouldn't be. Not every barbarian has to be a hulking muscled brute clad in fur loincloth looking to get drunk and start another barfight. He could just as well be a generally nice guy who occasionally has anger management issues - or he could even be played as sort of a Dr. Jeckyll/Mr. Hyde dude, for example. The rules are here to tell you how the game mechanics relating to your character work, not how your character looks like and behaves.

In the same vein, a monk? In my mind, monk is a generally martial character characterized by fighting skills stemming from immense self-discipline and life devoted to practice and perfection, usually coupled with a degree of asketicism (often unintentional, coming from things like "I am practicing, I don't have time to drink and carouse" attitude).

Especially with the aid of archetypes, this kind of character modelling is easier and easier to do: Robin Hood could easily be a Zen Archer. Obi Wan-Kenobi could be a Sensei. Zangief could be a Tetori and so on. Admittedly, due to RAW restrictions of monks to certain weapon types, some creativity and a degree of difficulty are present, depending on what you do. Coming up with an asketic swordmaster may require some negotiating with the GM for monk abilities to work with non-monk weapons, etc, but (In My Very Humble Opinion) RAW should not be rigid like a rebar rod to the point where it hurts the RP.

In the general sense of "How do you deal with Monks being inherently asian-flavored", answer is generally "Use your imagination." Perhaps your character is a life-long pilgrim, sworn to poverty and aiding of other pilgrims; spending his life on the road he has learned to defend himself with unarmed techniques and makeshift weapons and farm implements (which you can re-skin several monk weapons into). Or he's a warrior tired of killing, who embraced the non-lethal ways of dealing with his opponents through evasion and control (combat maneuvers, sort of like judo). Or maybe he's a failed wizard whose mind just wouldn't grasp the structure of arcane magic, but who still innately taps magical flows to enhance his luck in fisticuffs.

I hope this wasn't too long-winded or preachy - it's a Roleplaying game; you own it, you run with it! :)

~Andro


Gnomezrule wrote:

I almost forgot. Chi.

That pesky eastern concept. For a western feeling monk the mechanic of chi does not change though for a gnostic like sect it would be secret knowledge giving them mind over matter control of their body and the energies of their bodies. For a contemplative mystic that feels more like the mideval priest this would be assistance from God. Take the example of Samson from the Bible he was not just strong, "The Spirit of the Lord came over Samson and he slew 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of a donkey." So it is more than strength mentioned here it is a broader help. These western monks might rather than look to chi look to the dieties they have devoted themeselves and their bodies to for this divine assistence.

So, basically the 3.0 Sacred Fist Prestige Class?


I like the Gnostic spin there Gnomzrule.

There is a lot in Christian tradition that is non standard. As a result there is some nonstandard stuff you could do with a game that strived for Europe in the Dark Ages or Renaisance.


zagnabbit wrote:

Well after another "I just don't like Monks thread", something struck me. Several people don't dislike the class so much as the name. At least 3 posters mentioned an incompatible attitude between Kwi Chang Caine and Friar Tuck. If the Shaolin influence on the Monk CLASS makes the Friar Tuck class unavailable due to nothing more than nomenclature, what's the fix?

What does Friar Tuck, as a class entail?
What is needed in a non martial monk?

Tuck was clearly able to defend himself in fiction. In the real world the Jesuit Orders were not incapable of combat, at least to likely allegorical stories I encountered years ago.

In my personal games I'm more likely to use Monks (the class) as a political or philosophical devotee moreso than a religious order.

Thoughts?
If the monk were renamed as Mystic Warrior, what would the new Monk look like?
And more importantly, is it necessary?

To me, Zagnabbit's questions are two very separate questions.

The first question is what class would enable us to play monks like Friar Tuck. And that is not really a question about monks--Asian, Christian, or otherwise. A friar is a member of a religious organization that lives in a secular community to serve it, unlike a monk who lives in a cloistered religious community. Literature and real life have examples of friars and parish priests and Jesuits who have had adventures, such as Father Brown from G.K. Chesterton's stories and Father Marquette who explored the Great Lakes in North America. Sadly, the cleric and paladin classes are too oriented toward spells and combat to resemble those interesting people. A non-magical skill-oriented class, such as ranger or monk or adept, would suit them best.

The second question ties in more to the Am I the Only One Who Hates Monks thread, where the original poster objects to the Asian (Tian Xian) theme of the Pathfinder monk. What would a monk look like if divorced from his Asian roots?

In that thread, Dabbler points out that the concept of the monk is a "mystic philosopher-warrior could do these amazing feats from discipline, self-perfection and martial skill." That concept is not limited to one culture. The Pathfinder monk spends years in intense physical training, mastering the ability to do with his bare hands what anyone could do with a sword (to steal a line from Rich Burlew's Order of the Stick: Origin of the PCs). It is that single-minded pursuit of physical and spiritual perfection that defines a monk.

In modern Western culture the equivalent to a Pathfinder monk is a dedicated athlete.

In modern adventure movies, the common-man hero is often an athlete, or a former athlete settled down to a desk job but keeping in shape, to explain how he or she can manage the physical stunts required for adventure. Thus, the athlete adventurer is well represented in stories.

Imagine a Pathfinder Athlete class devoted to developing the character's skills in sports and then adapting them to adventuring.

  • Running? Track trains in Fast Movement.
  • Leaping? Basketball trains in High Jump.
  • Knocking on opponent aside with a shoulder? Football trains in Bull Rush.
  • Hitting a projectile in midair? Baseball trains in Deflect Arrows.
  • Boxing, karate, and wrestling train in Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple.

Yes, an Athlete is too close to a Monk to be a different class. Athletes are Monks.

A more experienced Athlete is supposed to be an inspiration to people, a mentor and a guide. That can be the spiritual side of the Athlete. That differs from the divine spellcasting spirituality of the clerics and the mystic ki spirituality of the monk, but it seems a suitable variant for the monk. Instead of giving up combat and acrobatic abilities to gain team-support abilities like the Sensei monk does, the Athlete can give up ki abilities to gain the Sensei's abilities.


Old Man Friar Tuck was himself a cleric which means he himself wasa priest.
which ruleswise, he was either a theologeon or an evangelist and thus a cleric.


I like the idea of this kind of monk being a skill monkey with craft and knowledge skills, but I like idea of a fistacuffs monk too.


Eh I wouldn't run him as Friar Tuck but a non Asian monk(aka the class) would be most easily skinned as say a wrestler or boxer or even a street fighter who picks up the dirty trick feats.

If you mean making Friar Tuck as in the historical western monk he's best suited to being a cleric with a cudgel and what not, alternatively you could run him as an orator bard(the merry men sing sometimes?) or an arcane caster since the historical monks were also the main supply of learned men other than the nobility(some overlap but the nobles usually wound up as the higher levels rather than the common laymen).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

Friar Tuck was always more of a Bard or a Rogue than a Cleric to me.

Mechanically a non asian monk would be a Cleric or an Oracle because in european medieval people realized that if you are a good combateer without a weapon you would still be better with a weapon.

So really, the monk with Flurry and Ki has so much asia styled goodness/shenanigan (pick your favorite) that it would not be recognizable as a monk anymore if you would take that from them.


Ancient Greek boxer, wrestler or Pankraitist. Pankration is the oldest recorded " martial art " it predates eastern martial arts by several centuries.

Sport in ancient Greece was a form of worship and athletes were revered. Combine that with philosophy being taught as part of the gymnasia then you have your perfect non eastern monk.

A highly trained athlete that belonged to a school with rival schools who studied religion science and philosophy.

So instead of Yi Chen of the Tiger Temple who follows the words of Lao Tzu and believes in the Dao. You have Xenophon of the Athenian Gymnaisia who follows the words of Sokrates and worships Athena.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
zagnabbit wrote:

Well after another "I just don't like Monks thread", something struck me. Several people don't dislike the class so much as the name. At least 3 posters mentioned an incompatible attitude between Kwi Chang Caine and Friar Tuck. If the Shaolin influence on the Monk CLASS makes the Friar Tuck class unavailable due to nothing more than nomenclature, what's the fix?

What does Friar Tuck, as a class entail?
What is needed in a non martial monk?

A non-martial monk is basically a cleric. Friar Tuck would be a martial monk, no two ways about it. The medieval friars were often former knights or men-at-arms and participated in training soldiers in addition to their clerical duties.

zagnabbit wrote:

Tuck was clearly able to defend himself in fiction. In the real world the Jesuit Orders were not incapable of combat, at least to likely allegorical stories I encountered years ago.

In my personal games I'm more likely to use Monks (the class) as a political or philosophical devotee moreso than a religious order.

Thoughts?
If the monk were renamed as Mystic Warrior, what would the new Monk look like?
And more importantly, is it necessary?

The idea of monk as mystic warrior is one I embrace whole-heartedly. The only problem with it are the current restrictions on the class. When I did my re-designed monk I took this on board, wanting a monk that could be 'tailored' to fit the various kinds of mystic warrior concept.

My main points here were:


  • Combat Concept: the monk should have options for using style, not power, to deliver an effective combat option, be that option be available via dealing damage or using maneuvers.
  • Weapon Proficiencies: the monk should have access to effective weapons, if they are a warrior then they need to be martial weapons. The monk should be capable of fighting unarmed, but it shouldn't be his only viable option.
  • Skills available: the monk needs to have skill options, a noble fencer, a scholastic philosopher-warrior, a peasant secretly preserving the mystic doctrine of an oppressed culture, all of these require very different skill-sets and have access to very different weapons.

Hence the monk I came up with can (I hope) be tailored to make a swashbuckler, a ninja, an pseudo-academic, a martial artist, or virtually any form of warrior that eschews armour and uses insight instead of brute force to win.

As for whether it is necessary, hell yes. The monk is the only 'martial class' that requires a mental stat without spells hinging on it. For every other martial class, the prime requisite is strength and X. Only X varies.


My Monk is a Shoanti tribesman trained in ancient tribal fighting techniques. Born and raised in Varisia.

Simple.

I don't know why people feel the need for mental gymnastics to get a Monk into a world of fireballs, magic swords, summoners, angels, demons, and talking stalagmites.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
King Stag wrote:

My Monk is a Shoanti tribesman trained in ancient tribal fighting techniques. Born and raised in Varisia.

Simple.

I don't know why people feel the need for mental gymnastics to get a Monk into a world of fireballs, magic swords, summoners, angels, demons, and talking stalagmites.

Yep. But it could be clearer in the monk fluff & crunch.


Perhaps like Gregorian or Benedictine monks.

What a lot of people don't realize is that the Knights Templar (and I think maybe the Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights) were a monastic order.

But in Golarion the Templars would have become Paladins.

I have suddenly envisioned an order of Templar look-alike monks that have a similar tunic to the Templars (white with red emblem) minus the metal armor and swords.


The Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Perhaps like Gregorian or Benedictine monks.

What a lot of people don't realize is that the Knights Templar (and I think maybe the Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights) were a monastic order.

But in Golarion the Templars would have become Paladins.

I have suddenly envisioned an order of Templar look-alike monks that have a similar tunic to the Templars (white with red emblem) minus the metal armor and swords.

Bah the templars are far more suited to being Inquisitors I think the restrictive code would have stopped the whole holy wars thing that happened involving them.


zagnabbit wrote:
Well after another "I just don't like Monks thread", something struck me. Several people don't dislike the class so much as the name. At least 3 posters mentioned an incompatible attitude between Kwi Chang Caine and Friar Tuck. If the Shaolin influence on the Monk CLASS makes the Friar Tuck class unavailable due to nothing more than nomenclature, what's the fix?

Fix? Why do we need a fix? In my copy of Robin Hood (the Disney version), Friar tuck gets mad with the Sheriff of Nottingham and demands he get out of his church. He then proceeds to unarmed strike the sheriff out of his church by slamming his body into him repeatedly. He then goes on to beat the piss out of the sheriff with a quarterstaff while unarmed, until another soldier moves in and flanks him, pulling a dirty trick, at which point the Sheriff (obviously a warrior if not a Fighter) combat maneuvers some manackles on the now blind (and thus dex denied armorless friar) and carts him off.

See for yourself. Old Sheriff is forced to go into a total defense just to avoid the flurry of quarterstaff strikes! EDIT: Admittedly due to Friar Tuck's lower CMD he gets his staff sundered, but it doesn't really seem to slow him down prior to getting blinded. That loss of Dex is a b~*@+.

Qadira

One way to broaden the horizons of the monk in the game is to realize that East Asia doesn't have a monopoly on martial arts and unarmed fighting styles.


Ashiel wrote:
zagnabbit wrote:
Well after another "I just don't like Monks thread", something struck me. Several people don't dislike the class so much as the name. At least 3 posters mentioned an incompatible attitude between Kwi Chang Caine and Friar Tuck. If the Shaolin influence on the Monk CLASS makes the Friar Tuck class unavailable due to nothing more than nomenclature, what's the fix?

Fix? Why do we need a fix? In my copy of Robin Hood (the Disney version), Friar tuck gets mad with the Sheriff of Nottingham and demands he get out of his church. He then proceeds to unarmed strike the sheriff out of his church by slamming his body into him repeatedly. He then goes on to beat the piss out of the sheriff with a quarterstaff while unarmed, until another soldier moves in and flanks him, pulling a dirty trick, at which point the Sheriff (obviously a warrior if not a Fighter) combat maneuvers some manackles on the now blind (and thus dex denied armorless friar) and carts him off.

See for yourself. Old Sheriff is forced to go into a total defense just to avoid the flurry of quarterstaff strikes! EDIT: Admittedly due to Friar Tuck's lower CMD he gets his staff sundered, but it doesn't really seem to slow him down prior to getting blinded. That loss of Dex is a b$~~!.

Not to say the monk class doesn't need a fix. Just that you don't have to do a lot of weird stuff to the monk to make it fit into a pseudo-western brown robe wearing monk motif. Just like you don't really have to do anything odd to build a perfectly working Samurai out of a Barbarian.


Shadowborn wrote:
One way to broaden the horizons of the monk in the game is to realize that East Asia doesn't have a monopoly on martial arts and unarmed fighting styles.

Pankration is the oldest recorded formalised martial art. Medieval fighting techniques and schools are well documented and are comparable or superior to eastern martial arts. The reason western martial arts fell out of favour is the firearm became the most effective method of resolving disputes. When westerners arrived in the east they romanticised the martial arts as something they lost the skills for.

Hollywood is responsible for our misperceptions of medieval fighting. It was not a mishmash of hack and slash. Knights and men at arms drilled and trained constantly. There were (and still exist) manuals from various masters on the best manoeuvres and forms to use for attack defence.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

for me whenever I think of non asian monks I go to the priest class from tome of secrets, the European monks of the time were some of the most intelligent people in their world maintaining and updating the most intricate libraries in Europe at the time and the priest covers that well.


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Quote:

Ashiel wrote,

Funny stuff with a link.......

Perfect.


doc the grey wrote:
for me whenever I think of non asian monks I go to the priest class from tome of secrets, the European monks of the time were some of the most intelligent people in their world maintaining and updating the most intricate libraries in Europe at the time and the priest covers that well.

Implying anyone would want 3rd party content in their game.

( PS. That was intended to be sarcastic. )


@Dabbler

I've always liked your redesign. But I'm not one convinced that the class needs anything more than skills(points) and to not get shafted with item rules. That's where there is a breakdown I think. Renaming it to Mystic Warrior or Contemplative wouldn't upset me either.

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