I would also NEVER allow it to stack with itself for extra feats and spells. One casting at a time.
Paragon Surge it's a polymorph effect so it is always one casting at a time.
Best thing to do is to use contingency with this to not lose actions or spell slots. Oracles must use paragon surge to get contingency to have paragon surge contingent on subsequent days.
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Why would my builds scare anyone? Most are reasonable and fun! :)
So, do I have to be a Half-Elf for it to go into my spells known? Because, I'd take it, then access it via wand of Alter Self or Polymorph.
Reading further I can see that Poly acts as Alter Self. With AS I can see why/how you're not considered that type. Thanks for the help.
The first line, indicating you simply 'transform' into the humanoid gives the immediate interpretation that you count as that creature... since you are it.
I'll have to scour a little closer, consider things like reincarnate and 3PP to get around it. It also leaves the possibility of becoming a human, or at least 'counting as human' to also gain the human feat that makes you count as a Half-Elf (Example: Half-Orc).
I am quite certain it's possible. I'll also have to look through other spell lists and see what upper Cleric's and Psion's gain for abilities.
Thanks for the answer to my query, I'll just have to actually crack open books to solve this one.
you can still use this spell as a human. Take the Racial Heritage feat and select half elf as your racial heritage. now you get the human favored class bonus, and this half elf spell.Doesn't work. Only in places like Eberron are half-elves considered their own race. the choices in this case would be "Elf" or "Human".
Can we ask why Half-Elf is contained under the Race tab? Why they have Racial Traits and Racial Feats if they are indeed not a race?
Can you provide a link to the statement that declares they are not actually a race and cannot be identified by feats, traits, etc... that specifically target a race? I mean, they even have their own Racial Traits... which shouldn't be possible if they are not a distinct race.
Reincarnating into a half-elf would work, but not alter-self since your race/type/subtype does not actually change from polymorph effects.
If you reincarnate into a human, you can indeed take the relevant feat, but you lose the effect of the feat if you ever reincarnate into something else since you no longer qualify for it.
LazarX: Where are you getting that half-elves are not a race from? Core Rulebook has this line on page 24:
"Though usually short-lived, even by human standards, these trysts commonly lead to the birth of half-elves, a race descended of two cultures yet inheritor of neither. Half-elves can breed with one another, but even these “pureblood” half-elves tend to be viewed as bastards by humans and elves alike."
Emphasis mine. Although, I have to admit I don't like the feat...
No, I agree Alter Self doesn't work. I actually like how the form changes and poly effects were re-designed for PF.
AFAIK they aren't listed for Favored Enemy, but that is just one case, hardly prescriptive for other effects.
The don't ahve their own subtype that is why the are not for favored enemy.
The don't ahve their own subtype that is why the are not for favored enemy.
Presumably because there was just no need. Anyone who hates humans or elves can stab them extra-well.
Half-elf magus + Paragon Surge + Extra Arcana + Spell Blending/Harmonic Blending (SGG)/Jinx Blending (SGG) = the most versatile spellcaster EVERBroken third party sources need no further comment.
There's nothing in New Magus Arcana (the SGG source) that any reasonable person would consider broken. The fact that the *unbelievably* broken paragon surge is slightly more useful for a magus who can cast 4th level spells and has access to that book that one that doesn't is no sign that the SGG book is borked.
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Yeah, Owen has a track record of putting out a lot of unbalanced, broken material. He clearly does not understand how the pieces of PFRPG go together.Half-elf magus + Paragon Surge + Extra Arcana + Spell Blending/Harmonic Blending (SGG)/Jinx Blending (SGG) = the most versatile spellcaster EVERBroken third party sources need no further comment.
Real nice.
First, Owen and SGG are among the best-regarded and best reviewed Pathfinder 3pp. Second, Owen's credits with Pathfinder go back to its first releases, his credits with d20 go back to its creation, and he is consistently hired by Paizo to work on their major releases. Not only has he shown a clear undertsanding of how the pieces of PFRPG go together, he created some of them.
Third, he's a designer on the product we're discussing, he *didn't* design the spell most of us agree is broken, and he chimed in here to answer some design theory questions that were express asked of him. And then you slam him and his company with vague claims of ignorance, low quality, and uncaring marketing that can ruin people's games?
For shame.
Yeah, Owen has a track record of putting out a lot of unbalanced, broken material. He clearly does not understand how the pieces of PFRPG go together.
There are over 100 SGG Pathfinder products, some of which have been nominated for rewards in excellence. If you feel he has a "track record," name ten pieces of unbalanced, broken material. That's less than 10%.
People think the 3rd party stuff is broken but paizo material is a-ok?
*rolls around on the floor laughing his ass off!*
*wipes a tear from eyes* Man, you guys... no matter how low my estimation of you, you always manage to make me shake my head and say, "I give them too much credit." It's like the respect limbo. How low can you go?
Just...wow.
Breaking news: cheese in D&D!
Coming up next: Wizards are powerful!
This spell isn't in D&D, it's in Pathfinder.
Yeah, Owen has a track record of putting out a lot of unbalanced, broken material. He clearly does not understand how the pieces of PFRPG go together.There are over 100 SGG Pathfinder products, some of which have been nominated for rewards in excellence. If you feel he has a "track record," name ten pieces of unbalanced, broken material. That's less than 10%.
I think Caedwyr was ironizing on the prevoius comment, you know.
However, if only for Spell Blending, I'd state that magi are MUCH more advantaged than sorcerers by this spell.In fact, I happen to have an half-elf magus who's VERY happy about it...
Yeah, Owen has a track record of putting out a lot of unbalanced, broken material. He clearly does not understand how the pieces of PFRPG go together.There are over 100 SGG Pathfinder products, some of which have been nominated for rewards in excellence. If you feel he has a "track record," name ten pieces of unbalanced, broken material. That's less than 10%.
I have to say that in PF's incarnation of the game the quality of 3rd party material reached new levels, SGG has contributed significantly to that development imo. I am much less hesitant to allow 3rd party material than I was previously. Many 3rd part products now seem to be slightly underpowered rather than overpowered, and I adopt quite a few as homebrew material even if it is just for NPCs in many cases.
Note : I still like to keep things simple so I rule 3rd party material to be allowable by special request and work in the opposite direction with PF material, in which I specifically disallow certain material.
Yeah, Owen has a track record of putting out a lot of unbalanced, broken material. He clearly does not understand how the pieces of PFRPG go together.Half-elf magus + Paragon Surge + Extra Arcana + Spell Blending/Harmonic Blending (SGG)/Jinx Blending (SGG) = the most versatile spellcaster EVERBroken third party sources need no further comment.Or maybe he simply doesn't care. SGG's material is marketed to players so that they'll buy his stuff and badger their DM's to incorporate it. He's not in a position to worry about how it fits into Paizo's material or whether it becomes a time bomb compared to that or another supplement.
But then again the buck stops at the GM's door. Or at least it should.
Oddly enough NO ONE at my table has had a problem with ANY of the products from Super Genius Games also as one of my groups DM's I give free access to all of the Genius Products.
I wonder if you people who seem to be bashing Owen about his products actually know that he does A LOT of freelance stuff for Paizo. They seem to think he has very balanced stuff, they seem to think he is skilled enough to write some of their product.
Just because it does not fit "YOUR" opinion of balanced does not mean it is unbalanced.
If you don't like his products then don't buy them, period, don't go bashing them. Especially when Owen K.C. Stephens is ALWAYS open to answer any questions about his products, and done so often on these forums.
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This spell sounds incredible I see half elf being nearly mandatory now and this spell being a must have I had no problem with it.
HOWEVER you pointed out a combo with undead bloodline and ablative barrier at the top of all of this. One problem with that. It doesn’t work.
Just because you don’t take any damage from the attack doesn’t mean the spell didn’t convert the damage to nonlethal. It actually explicitly requires the spell to convert to nonlethal so that it can then be ignored by the nonlethal dr of the bloodline.
Sorry when I see stinky cheese that is actually just moldy cheddar I have to throw it out.
This spell sounds incredible I see half elf being nearly mandatory now and this spell being a must have I had no problem with it.
HOWEVER you pointed out a combo with undead bloodline and ablative barrier at the top of all of this. One problem with that. It doesn’t work.
Just because you don’t take any damage from the attack doesn’t mean the spell didn’t convert the damage to nonlethal. It actually explicitly requires the spell to convert to nonlethal so that it can then be ignored by the nonlethal dr of the bloodline.
Sorry when I see stinky cheese that is actually just moldy cheddar I have to throw it out.
I don't think you're getting how the combo works. There was nothing in the combo about not taking any damage from an attack.
The point of the combo was to have the spell convert up to 5 points of damage from each attack into NLD, and then have those 5 points of NLD reduced by the 3rd level bloodline power. The combo does rely on the aforementioned conversion and I was not assuming that "the spell didn't convert the damage to nonlethal".
Thus you essentially get DR5/- for as long as the spell is still able to convert damage to NLD, albeit in a roundabout way.
Why does this not work?
3PP, generally, shouldn't be held accountable of how their publish material interacts with official material published by Paizo after its publication.
Humbly,
Yawar
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i see what you mean now i have seen an ablative post saying the same thing but claiming since the damage was further prevented from being dealt as nonlethal from the dr provided by undead bloodline that the Ablative was never consumed. that is what does not work. if what your saying is you are just using it as a low level way to score a sweet dr 5/- for the third level spell then yes you are correct. I thought that your post was a continuation of the "it gives me dr 5/- for 1 hr/lvl since the bloodline prevents the converted damage." that was the cheese. what you are using is definitely useful i just didn't think anything special of it for a bloodline and 3rd level spell combo. sorry for my conclusion jumping.
Owen has a track record of putting out a lot of unbalanced, broken material. He clearly does not understand how the pieces of PFRPG go together.Just because it does not fit "YOUR" opinion of balanced does not mean it is unbalanced.
If you don't like his products then don't buy them, period, don't go bashing them.
No, but if it meets HIS definition of unbalanced, it's an entirely rational post for HIM to make.
Saying he can't post criticisms based on his own criteria... well, that line of self-righetousness is just not going to WORK.Perhaps just asking what his criteria for balance are, and how/what products of SGG violate that, would be more constructive.
Yes but many of the people that bash 3pp products are not much more than armchair game designers that bash creators based off how they perceive a product, not how the product actually plays out in their games. When I make a post pointing out how something is OP in the game it is because I've actually made an attempt to use said product and have at some point asked around if I was misusing said piece ahead of time then point out where I may think something is OP.
I don't however go into a thread and point out a game designer saying he or she makes consistent bad choices and does not care about what his or her customer base thinks.
Critique is good, bashing a Game Designer who often has the good nature to come in and talk with those who have questions about his product is not.
Owen has a track record of putting out a lot of unbalanced, broken material. He clearly does not understand how the pieces of PFRPG go together.Just because it does not fit "YOUR" opinion of balanced does not mean it is unbalanced.
If you don't like his products then don't buy them, period, don't go bashing them.No, but if it meets HIS definition of unbalanced, it's an entirely rational post for HIM to make.
Saying he can't post criticisms based on his own criteria... well, that line of self-righetousness is just not going to WORK.
Perhaps just asking what his criteria for balance are, and how/what products of SGG violate that, would be more constructive.
Realmwalker hit it on the head. Saying you feel something is unbalanced is an opinion; bashing someones entire work line..especially when people buy them and love them is just that bashing. Or to put it another way..his opinion of unbalanced must be WAY off what a whole lot of other peoples are..which makes one wonder why there was such a blanket statement of "unbalance and broken".
As far as the combo itself..no one..Paizo or any 3pp can see how every feat/spell/whatever will interact with every past product, let alone future ones. The answer is simple..if you don't want the combo..don't put that one spell/feat/whatever in your game. No drama, no bashing.
We don't allow that 3PP garbage in our games!
(J/K...about it being garbage.)
Yes but many of the people that bash 3pp products are not much more than armchair game designers that bash creators based off how they perceive a product, not how the product actually plays out in their games. When I make a post pointing out how something is OP in the game it is because I've actually made an attempt to use said product and have at some point asked around if I was misusing said piece ahead of time then point out where I may think something is OP.
I don't however go into a thread and point out a game designer saying he or she makes consistent bad choices and does not care about what his or her customer base thinks.
Critique is good, bashing a Game Designer who often has the good nature to come in and talk with those who have questions about his product is not.
Realmwalker makes a good point. This is one of the problems that causes some other gaming systems to suffer. I got to witness this first hand during my time as a freelancer for another system, and there were multitudes of "armchair game designers" that liked to take potshots at the freelancers because of some perceived notions of improper quality. The response of those in charge was to actively promote power creep in order to keep their on-site fan base happy... At the expense of many dedicated players (such as myself) who moved on to other games. Unfortunately for that game system, some of the freelancers promoted this behaviour amongst the fans and called it "open source testing", even though it was anything but. In the end, it hurt sales and a lot of players lost confidence in the product.
I think it has the potential to hurt both third party products and Paizo to arbitrarily bash materials put out for the game. It also discourages Game Designers from coming in and using the community as a resource for development (i.e. it's exactly the way not to get your voice heard). Paizo openly encourages the development of third party materials and has worked with some of the third party developers before on their officially sanctioned products. Speaking as a former freelance writer, I would like to politely discourage you from alienating capable writers who are willing to put their energies into a game that you love.
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OGL is what has made PF possible, and what it thrives on.
Lets show some respect. PF supports 3PP, and 3PP supports PF. The only thing that's not being supportive here is us...
*lights candle and sings kumbaya*
i see what you mean now i have seen an ablative post saying the same thing but claiming since the damage was further prevented from being dealt as nonlethal from the dr provided by undead bloodline that the Ablative was never consumed. that is what does not work. if what your saying is you are just using it as a low level way to score a sweet dr 5/- for the third level spell then yes you are correct. I thought that your post was a continuation of the "it gives me dr 5/- for 1 hr/lvl since the bloodline prevents the converted damage." that was the cheese. what you are using is definitely useful i just didn't think anything special of it for a bloodline and 3rd level spell combo. sorry for my conclusion jumping.
No worries. I did not explain how my combo worked, and was not aware that someone had tried to use a similar combo whilst also stretching the rules in a way that, I totally agree, is wrong. =)
Don't forget that multiclass half-elves can choose feats fit for their OTHER classes too!^^
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Especially when you can use favored class bonuses to pick up an extra spell every level, this will probably be restricted to utility spells and a way to defeat weird enemies like golems.
Does anyone else think it's odd that half-elven oracles (and witches) can choose an extra spell known as their Favored Class Option, but half-elf sorcerers can't?
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Owen has a track record of putting out a lot of unbalanced, broken material. He clearly does not understand how the pieces of PFRPG go together.Just because it does not fit "YOUR" opinion of balanced does not mean it is unbalanced.
If you don't like his products then don't buy them, period, don't go bashing them.No, but if it meets HIS definition of unbalanced, it's an entirely rational post for HIM to make.
Saying he can't post criticisms based on his own criteria... well, that line of self-righetousness is just not going to WORK.
Perhaps just asking what his criteria for balance are, and how/what products of SGG violate that, would be more constructive.Realmwalker hit it on the head. Saying you feel something is unbalanced is an opinion; bashing someones entire work line..especially when people buy them and love them is just that bashing. Or to put it another way..his opinion of unbalanced must be WAY off what a whole lot of other peoples are..which makes one wonder why there was such a blanket statement of "unbalance and broken".
As far as the combo itself..no one..Paizo or any 3pp can see how every feat/spell/whatever will interact with every past product, let alone future ones. The answer is simple..if you don't want the combo..don't put that one spell/feat/whatever in your game. No drama, no bashing.
Chiming in here ... Blackerose and Realmwalker both echo my thoughts here as well. Owen is a quality designer, for SGG and for Paizo and there really is no way to refute that. He's also a really good guy.
Making a comment like Caedwyr did, which is pretty obviously more about some personal agenda than anything else, was not only uncalled for ... it was really uncool.
Also of interest is a comment Caedwyr made recently in another thread:
"What I find interesting is that a lot of the SGG stuff that looks overpowered at first glance, actually ends up being pretty balanced in play (eg, the Dragonrider class), or at least as balanced as the material you'll find in the core book. Owen tends to also have a better understanding of how the various subsystems interact with each other and the need for clear wording that I see in most Paizo books."
Making a comment like Caedwyr did, which is pretty obviously more about some personal agenda than anything else, was not only uncalled for ... it was really uncool.
Mark, please engage your sarcasm detector. Thank you. ~The Internet.
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Mark, please engage your sarcasm detector. Thank you. ~The Internet.
Making a comment like Caedwyr did, which is pretty obviously more about some personal agenda than anything else, was not only uncalled for ... it was really uncool.
Really? Hmmm, yeah ... I guess that might have been sarcasm ... although if it was, I clearly was not the only one to miss it!
I think Caedwyr was ironizing on the previous comment, you know.Yeah, Owen has a track record of putting out a lot of unbalanced, broken material. He clearly does not understand how the pieces of PFRPG go together.There are over 100 SGG Pathfinder products, some of which have been nominated for rewards in excellence. If you feel he has a "track record," name ten pieces of unbalanced, broken material. That's less than 10%.
Just like I said.
Owen is a great writer and a VERY good guy and I think everyone agrees with that here.
The reason Caedwyr's post was perceivably sarcastic was because of how obviously incorrect it was. People who learned to hate on 3PP in their 3.5 days and didn't realize that a lot of 3PP is highly regarded by the Paizo community-and perhaps even Paizo devs itself-didn't get the joke. Hell, Pathfinder is practically just a really good 3PP that happens to not need the 1st party, so all this 3rd party hating feels a little ridiculous to read.
And also, why would a guy who hates some company's 3PP learn the name of the guy heading it? Didn't that seem off? I know it's hard to read subtext on the internet but jeez.
P.S. Spell does seem a bit O.P. Feats are far too variably powerful.
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Sorry for the thread resurrection...
I think it's interesting that although a Sorcerer can use Paragon Surge for Extra Arcana other casters can use it for Preferred Spell (assuming they have a Spellcraft of 5 and the Heightened Spell Feat). So it may allow Sorcerers to spontaneously cast any spell (within their normal level limits), but it also allows Wizards and their ilk to spontaneously cast any spell in their spellbook too.
So whether the spell is the right power level or not, it hardly just benefits Sorcerers. If fact, a half-elf Wizard could put this in his spellbook at level 5 (a level before a Sorcerer can even think about it) and not even bother to memorise it, instead using his Arcane Bond object to spontaneously cast Paragon Surge and allow himself to then cast 'spell X' spontaneously as many times as he could (within the Paragon Surge duration and restricted by the number of spell slots he has available). Or, even better, carry around a Wand of Paragon Surge (which he can make himself by level 5) and happily spontaneously cast any spell in his spellbook whenever he wants.
A half-elf Cleric with a Wand of Paragon Surge can happily cast any Cleric spell he has the level to cast spontaneously, if he choses the Preferred Spell Feat. So... the Oracle is a little obsolete...
Just a few thoughts, really. I like the Paragon Surge spell, mostly because Sorcerers need nice things... but maybe if it had read something like '... any one Feat with "human", "elf", or "half-elf" as a prerequisite, as long as you meet any other prerequisites...' it would have kept the flavour, but dodged some of the potential abuse? Either that, or if it were a Sorcerer only spell... ;)
EDIT: removed reference to 'oracle spell lists' 'cos, you know, they use the cleric spell list... ::slaps self on forehead::
Please note: with Knowledge Pool, EVERY half-elf magus has access to the spell!
MAGI RULE THE WORLD!!!