The anthropomorphic elephant in the PFS / ARG room

[Jewelfox]

To recap in case there's anyone who dun know what we're talking about, the Advanced Race Guide and the guidelines for using it in Pathfinder Society games just got released. The Advanced Race Guide details rules for how to play 30 races not already in the Core Rulebook. The number of these races playable in Pathfinder Society games without special permission is 0.

The way to get this special permission is to receive a campaign boon from attending other Pathfinder Society events, usually those held at conventions. This results in numerous players who want to play a certain race but aren't allowed to, and a tiny handful of players who are allowed to play a certain race, many of whom probably don't want to. For some reason, this is seen as okay, and the people who've pointed out that this is inequitable are seen as spoiled and entitled whiners.

The justification for why this is okay partly involves game balance issues, but mostly centers on how people don't want the PFS to be like Mos Eisley. The assumption is that if ARG races are allowed, all of a sudden PFS will be swarmed with them.

This is screwed up on multiple levels.

First off, let's take that assumption at face value. At your next PFS game, everyone's playing Kenku Bards, Kitsune Summoners, and Catfolk Rogues who say "nya." I don't know how you'd describe this, but I'd call it a flipping spectacular success for the Advanced Race Guide.

My FLGS got 11 copies in today, and after I bought mine they were down to three. What does that tell you about what Pathfinder players want? I personally know at least one person other than me who'd go back to playing PFS if they were allowed to play an ARG race.

Yet this is the way things are right now, by design. If you want to play a character you can identify with, and that character's race isn't in the half-dozen or so that've existed since 3.0 came out, you have to first create a different character, put in your time, and pray. This despite the fact that the choice of class affects gameplay a heck of a lot more than race does, and there are OVER 9000 class archetypes on offer, many of which (Gunslinger, Synergist) are extremely different from everything else.

Here's the elephant in the room.

The "we don't want Mos Eisley" argument is loaded with more unfortunate implications than the Order of the Stick has metagaming. Let's look at the ways to interpret it, from the most to the least charitable.

1. We want to preserve the Golarion setting.

Golarion is a world dominated by HEDGHogs (humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings). HEDGHogs comprise nearly all of the characters in the lore. It is very HEDGHy. Allowing non-HEDGHog characters compromises the creative vision, and will make the world seem less like Golarion and more like the (unbelievably successful) Star Wars series.

Problem: This argument is self-refuting. If anyone feels threatened enough by the prospect of a large number of ARG race player characters to need to invoke Mos Eisley against them, that demonstrates that enough people want to play non-HEDGHogs that "preserve Golarion's racial purity" is not a priority for the player base.

2. We don't want weird player characters hanging around.

HEDGHogs have been around since the start of 3.0 and before. Ergo, they are not weird like Tengu and Kitsune are. Weird stuff should either be disallowed altogether, or only allowed with special dispensation from on high.

Problem: This doesn't make any sense at all unless you accept the premise that "weird is bad." Which is dangerously close to "diversity is bad", especially when you factor in players who don't want to play "normal" races but do want to play "weird" ones. Which brings us to the most unfortunate way to interpret that argument:

3. We don't want weird players hanging around.

There it is, the big anthropomorphic elephant stomping all over the rulebooks.

Tieflings are disallowed because of the stereotypes of the kind of people who play them. Aasimar are disallowed because of the kind of people who play them. Catfolk and kitsune are especially disallowed because of who wants to play them. Anything else, talk to the hand, because we don't want your kind either.

The Geek Hierarchy joke is funny because it's true. No one wants the damned furries ruining the game with their damned furriness. Because all furries and all furry characters (including Abel) are sex-crazed maniacs, and the existing rules against R-rated stuff at the table are somehow inadequate at keeping their fur-fueled libidos at bay. This is so self-evident that we have to tell people not to use half of the $40 book they just bought in droves, rather than test the hypothesis.

Well, I'm a furry. Hell, I'm an otherkin. And I've GMed Pathfinder for all-furry groups before, where all the players except my significant other were completely new to Pathfinder. These are new players who got exicted about the game, going out and buying Reaper minis and dice and everything, because it let them go on D&D style adventures with their furry characters.

But PFS doesn't want us there, because somehow the idea of playing a HEDGHog does not interest us. And frankly, I think there are a ton of other unfortunate elephants lurking there in Mos Eisley. How about teenage anime fans? Paranormal romance readers? Goths? Tell me who you'd freak out about if they showed up with their favorite character, and I'll tell you what your prejudices are and whose money Paizo is losing.

Yeah, this is overblown. Yeah, I'm another person whining about nothing. But I and my friends also aren't showing up to our FLGS to play PFS and spend $$$. Instead, my significant other and I go to D&D Encounters, where the DM allows them to play a Gnoll Swordmage. And if that's the way everyone wants it to be, just keep on doing what you're doing.

I'll keep working on forking Pathfinder. You wouldn't believe how enthused my players are about it.

[Shivok]

Wow. Holy Bat Thread .

But really I get your point. I've argued your point and I've tried to look at it from both sides of the fence.

Others have done the same thing these are the ideas that have come up:

1. Make a chronicle sheet that allows one race per player (exception race boon gained at the conventions.)

2. Change the reporting system so that you can register a race in a special Id number (ex. PFS# 9578-R) just like when new characters are made.

3. Allowing a race after a year or two, then moving on to a different race

4. Give GM 1 race boon per star to give out.

5. Banning all non-core races

6. Opening up the races that have already been awarded via boons.

There are many more ideas some good, some bad. The point of all this is to let you know that everyone is aware of this thread (probably the 10th thread on the subject so far)

I personally would like # 1 or 2 implemented but the company's workload for IT is pretty jammed up right now so it wont be happening soon. Given that I waited almost a year for a race boon means that I'm willing to wait a little longer. I do not want the ARG races to be opened up completely either I think the boon method is fine, but I also see the need for the wider base of players to have the opportunity.

I am sure this subject is being debated on the VC Boards and by the PFS Leadership. Give them some time to come out with a plan that is amenable to everyone. The ARG just came out and Season 4 is just around the corner. Lets just be patient.

Shivok
'Supporting the Cause, Not always the methods'

[Harley Quinn X]

I will just leave this comment from Mike Brock about opening races right here, then exit from this thread.

[Paz]

Mike Brock has made a few posts recently (including this one and this one) that could be read as implying that some races may be opened up at the start of season 4 in August. I'd wait to see what the new season brings before putting too much effort into arguing for major change.

[Matthew Morris]

To the Original Poster.

There have been several threads (I've started at least one, and abducted others) on if/when/how the 'boon races' as I call them should be opened up.

Is it fair? (IMHO) No. Life's not fair, get a helmet. More importantly, instead of ranting and stomping your feet and threatening to go somewhere else, offer creative suggestions.

This isn't an elephant in the room everyone's ignoring. It's been talked about since the book was announced. I'd love to play an aasimar (at some point). I'd love for my niece to play a kitsune, if she wants. That's why I've been trying to persuade Mike and the PTB to come up with something new. Not stomping my feet and holding my breath. And to be honest, posts like yours don't help.

[Lass]

The fellas at PFS have listened to several of us (me included) crying over the lack of new races and Mike Brock has hinted at more post GenCon. So hold tight, I feel your pain, but as always Paizo is doing its best to maintain its well earned reputation for being reactive to the fans.

[BigNorseWolf]

To mathew morris,

I believe he's not offering creative solutions because he's arguing that there is no problem to solve in the first place.

[Alitan]

My two coppers, as someone who opted out of Organised Play due to a number of issues, none germane to the topic at hand...

Convention boons are all very well. As someone who can barely afford his own copy of the CRB (but DID scrimp and save to get one, because Pathfinder ROCKS) I won't ever see a convention boon. Time off work+travel costs+convention fee+temporary housing costs=not going to happen, me going to a Con.

Not a big deal, since I've stopped playing PFSOP: I don't NEED a boon to play something off-standard.

BUT, for the PFSOP fan-base, many of whom likely find themselves in similar financial straights (gotta love this economy) this "conventioneers-only" policy on new races really sucks. Not "kinda sucks" or "sucks a bit," but "Charybdis-level suckage" sucks.

I don't have purchasing figures, but I IMAGINE that OP players are a significant percentage of Paizo's paying customers... who won't be able to use their shiny, new Advanced Races Guide for their OP because of, what? Realism issues about race balance in a fantasy game system?

>coughcough<

Let me try that again: "realism issues about race balance in a fantasy game."

>coughcough<

Nope. Can't get it out without that pesky "b*llsh*t" cough cropping up.

I'm not suggesting an open field day on the ARG races... but their has to be some way to expand racial selection so that the lucky few include those who aren't privileged to attend cons.

I think the idea of race boons/GM star upthread was a good one, for an example...

[Matthew Morris]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

To mathew morris,

I believe he's not offering creative solutions because he's arguing that there is no problem to solve in the first place.

I read it as "You aren't letting me play X, so you're hurting yourselves, so I'm taking my ball and going home." *shrug* I just prefer to try to sweet talk you into using my ball in your game. :-)

[WalterGM]

Jewelfox wrote:

But I and my friends also aren't showing up to our FLGS to play PFS and spend $$$.

PFS has no admission price. That's determined by the GM/FLGS.

[Feegle]

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Jewelfox wrote:

But I and my friends also aren't showing up to our FLGS to play PFS and spend $$$.

PFS has no admission price. That's determined by the GM/FLGS.

I think Jewelfox meant that his group isn't buying more Pathfinder stuff, because they're not playing PFS at the moment. But I could be wrong.

[Fromper]

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Jewelfox wrote:

But I and my friends also aren't showing up to our FLGS to play PFS and spend $$$.

PFS has no admission price. That's determined by the GM/FLGS.

$3.99 per scenario looks like an admission price to me.

[WalterGM]

Jeff Mahood wrote:

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Jewelfox wrote:

But I and my friends also aren't showing up to our FLGS to play PFS and spend $$$.

PFS has no admission price. That's determined by the GM/FLGS.

I think Jewelfox meant that his group isn't buying more Pathfinder stuff, because they're not playing PFS at the moment. But I could be wrong.

He said that he had bought the ARG and would continue to play it at home (I believe) just not in an OP format.

[godsDMit]

Fromper wrote:

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Jewelfox wrote:

But I and my friends also aren't showing up to our FLGS to play PFS and spend $$$.

PFS has no admission price. That's determined by the GM/FLGS.

$3.99 per scenario looks like an admission price to me.

You dont have to buy the scenario to play through it.

[sveden]

I was just discussing at my FLGS how completely amazing and awesome it is that races from this book is not legal for PFS yet.

Paizo has consistently proven that they care about their organized play. The simple fact that they just released a new book and AREN'T allowing it proves that they are cautious. And that adding the book to organized play is not a cheap ploy to sell units.

Let this book simmer for a little bit. Let the players use it, abuse it and point out possible flaws.

Then and only then should Paizo consider adding potentially content from this book.

/edit changed "this book" to "races from this book"

[WalterGM]

Fromper wrote:

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Jewelfox wrote:

But I and my friends also aren't showing up to our FLGS to play PFS and spend $$$.

PFS has no admission price. That's determined by the GM/FLGS.

$3.99 per scenario looks like an admission price to me.

Admission fees are paid to participate. One person needs to own a copy of the scenario. As a GM I ate that cost. I didn't charge anyone admission.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

sveden wrote:

I was just discussing at my FLGS how completely amazing and awesome it is that races from this book is not legal for PFS yet.

Paizo has consistently proven that they care about their organized play. The simple fact that they just released a new book and AREN'T allowing it proves that they are cautious. And that adding the book to organized play is not a cheap ploy to sell units.

Let this book simmer for a little bit. Let the players use it, abuse it and point out possible flaws.

Then and only then should Paizo consider adding potentially content from this book.

/edit changed "this book" to "races from this book"

So what that sarcasm? Or did you miss the update to Additional Resources?

[Sarta]

I thought I would jump in quickly here to say that boons to date have not just been limited to conventions. Anyone who ran a Beginner's Box Bash at their local store had an opportunity to pick up a Tiefling or Damphir boon. Who is to say that something similar won't happen again?

If the PFS staff were to simply open up play to any and all races, it would have a few effects:

1.. Given the nature in game of who our characters are and the jobs they are given, it seems reasonable that there would be more humans, elves, dwarves, and the rest of the core races acting as operatives and trouble shooters. A lot of players who want to feel immersed would have problems with a team consisting of a grippli, hobgoblin, wayang, and nagaji being assembled in order to quell a riot in Ustalov.

2. Mike would lose one of the few player and GM rewards that he has access to which costs the Society very little money. That may sound cheap, but let's face it, we all love Paizo and want to see them stay around. We also don't want the cost of published material to go up in cost. We also don't want to pay dues. So, that basically means we don't want PFS to have a big budget for boons and such.

3. This is going to sound mercenary, but I work in a corporate environment. Conventions matter a lot from a marketing perspective. A gaming convention provides an opportunity to reach and pull in hundreds of new players. Organized play means they can continue to play once the convention is over. A boon granted to a new player at a convention may help seal the deal and those given to veteran players and GM's reward them for creating a good experience for these new players. This all provides motivation for people to purchase books -- even if just to use the boon. Again, I love Paizo and want them to succeed, so I have no problem with this tactic.

[sveden]

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

sveden wrote:

I was just discussing at my FLGS how completely amazing and awesome it is that races from this book is not legal for PFS yet.

Paizo has consistently proven that they care about their organized play. The simple fact that they just released a new book and AREN'T allowing it proves that they are cautious. And that adding the book to organized play is not a cheap ploy to sell units.

Let this book simmer for a little bit. Let the players use it, abuse it and point out possible flaws.

Then and only then should Paizo consider adding potentially content from this book.

/edit changed "this book" to "races from this book"

So what that sarcasm? Or did you miss the update to Additional Resources?

Check my edit you quoted. Not sarcasm.

[Skeld]

My personal preference is that anthropomorphic races be left out of PFS. Nothing prevents you from going crazy with them in your home game (just like nothing prevents me from banning them in mine).

PFS should cut a path down the middle of the road. Leave the races out except for special boons (which should be rare).

-Skeld

[BigNorseWolf]

Will Johnson wrote:

. Anyone who ran a Beginner's Box Bash at their local store had an opportunity to pick up a Tiefling or Damphir boon.

Assuming you have a local store. Some people don't. Its a 50 minute drive to my local store, so I'm better off going to conventions for one day even i can't stay over.

I do go to cons on occasion (more now since finding PFS- I like the con gaming style but always hated being handed a lousey character someone else made in 15 minutes and didn't think through ) I did manage to get a tengu, but i realize that some people live waaaaay out in the boondocks and can't do that.

[Todd Morgan]

Reasons for restricting races in PFS
1. Race boons are a huge draw for conventions. By opening them up, you eliminate a cheap way for Paizo to support small conventions.
2. The ARG is not campaign specific and it's possible that some of these races don't even appear in Golarion.
3. Some of the races that do appear in Golarion are wholly evil which wouldn't work for PFS as you cannot play an evil character.

Rail against any PFS restriction all you want, the reason for them is to have a better, longer lasting campaign as a whole.

I think we have all seen the power creep in an OP campaign where everything is wide open (and how that turned out) and I would hope people enjoy playing PFS enough to know that the restrictions the leadership put in place are for the benefit of everyone and are not created lightly.

[Drogon]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Assuming you have a local store. Some people don't. Its a 50 minute drive to my local store, so I'm better off going to conventions for one day even i can't stay over.

I'd be willing to bet that should you pick a (not so local) game store to work with you may get access to stuff like the Beginner Box Bash. I know I would work with outside area coordinators and players, if they asked. I currently work with one in Wyoming to help him run D&D Encounters stuff. I'm in south Denver, Colorado. I would happily do everything I could to provide help gaining boons and such for your local groups.

Venture Captains, as well, should be able to help out with this stuff.

Reach out and see what happens.

[Sarta]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Will Johnson wrote:

. Anyone who ran a Beginner's Box Bash at their local store had an opportunity to pick up a Tiefling or Damphir boon.

Assuming you have a local store. Some people don't. Its a 50 minute drive to my local store, so I'm better off going to conventions for one day even i can't stay over.

Yup, I played at a couple of your tables at Neoncon (Khortos Envoy and Hall of Drunken Heroes) and had a blast.

I totally agree that not everyone has the ability to run something like a BBB at their local store. My point was simply that boons have historically not been limited to just conventions, so there is no reason to believe that they will be in the future.

[BigNorseWolf]

Matthew Morris wrote:

I read it as "You aren't letting me play X, so you're hurting yourselves, so I'm taking my ball and going home." *shrug*

I don't see that as an accurate summation of his statement, nor do i feel that painting it as childish is productive.

Quote:

I just prefer to try to sweet talk you into using my ball in your game. :-)

And he's making a rather direct argument against the grounds that the decision to let some people use that ball and some people are not. ONE of those arguments is the bottom line. He's clearly NOT taking his ball and leaving.

[godsDMit]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Will Johnson wrote:

. Anyone who ran a Beginner's Box Bash at their local store had an opportunity to pick up a Tiefling or Damphir boon.

Assuming you have a local store. Some people don't. Its a 50 minute drive to my local store, so I'm better off going to conventions for one day even i can't stay over.

Please excuse Will. What he meant to say was 'anyone who ran it at all'. It didnt matter if it was in a store or not. You could invite some friends over to your house and played it there, and you would have gotten the boon.

[CRobledo]

Todd Morgan wrote:

2. The ARG is not campaign specific and it's possible that some of these races don't even appear in Golarion.

3. Some of the races that do appear in Golarion are wholly evil which wouldn't work for PFS as you cannot play an evil character.

These two are my big ones. ARG is not Golarion specific, so I just want the campaign to keep it in Golarion. If races are going to be opened up, it would be my preference to start with a subset of the races that has already been given out as a boon in the past (i.e. "retire" them from boon rotation), as these have established presence in Golarion already (for example, the dragon empire races).

[Shivok]

Will Johnson wrote:

My point was simply that boons have historically not been limited to just conventions, so there is no reason to believe that they will be in the future.

To add to Will's comment Mike has said in the past that he is working on guidelines for PFS Event support. So we may see this as well. This should alleviate the belief that you can only get boons at conventions.

I know we've all been a bit impatient at times with these issues but I think Paizo has been very receptive to the concerns of its fanbase.

[Todd Morgan]

Not only that Shivok, but from what I've seen, they try not to make any decision lightly. They talk to employees outside PFS to get feedback, they present it to the VOs and to the players for feedback and they weigh it all when they come up with this stuff.

[Fromper]

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Fromper wrote:

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Jewelfox wrote:

But I and my friends also aren't showing up to our FLGS to play PFS and spend $$$.

PFS has no admission price. That's determined by the GM/FLGS.

$3.99 per scenario looks like an admission price to me.

Admission fees are paid to participate. One person needs to own a copy of the scenario. As a GM I ate that cost. I didn't charge anyone admission.

The OP's point, and mine in pointing out the $3.99 per scenario, is that if players aren't playing PFS, then Paizo is losing money. It doesn't matter who pays the $3.99, it's still money that Paizo could be making and isn't. And for a group playing a weekly game, it adds up.

[Matthew Morris]

Todd Morgan wrote:

Reasons for restricting races in PFS

1. Race boons are a huge draw for conventions. By opening them up, you eliminate a cheap way for Paizo to support small conventions.
2. The ARG is not campaign specific and it's possible that some of these races don't even appear in Golarion.
3. Some of the races that do appear in Golarion are wholly evil which wouldn't work for PFS as you cannot play an evil character.

Rail against any PFS restriction all you want, the reason for them is to have a better, longer lasting campaign as a whole.

I think we have all seen the power creep in an OP campaign where everything is wide open (and how that turned out) and I would hope people enjoy playing PFS enough to know that the restrictions the leadership put in place are for the benefit of everyone and are not created lightly.

1) Which is why we had an entire thread suggesting alternatives.

2) I'm not aware of anyone saying 'open up everything' No book, including the CRB, has everything open.

3) See 2 above.

And actually your statement 1 conflicts with your statement "Rail against any PFS restriction all you want, the reason for them is to have a better, longer lasting campaign as a whole."

[Andrew Christian]

I doubt very highly that not allowing complete and open access to all playable races within the Advanced Race Guide will cause people to leave the campaign on any level significant enough to impact Paizo’s bottom line.

I just don’t see this as that big a deal.

Would I like to play a Vanaran? Heck yeah! I love monkeys!

But I’m perfectly happy with any of the races currently available.

[Sarta]

Andrew Christian wrote:

I love monkeys!

I think this is the key take-away.

[Jiggy]

Will Johnson wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

I love monkeys!

I think this is the key take-away.

+1

[Sarta]

Will Johnson wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

I love monkeys!

I think this is the key take-away.

Actually, while that offhand, cheap joke makes me chuckle still, I don't want to seem to be overlooking the very real concerns of the original poster.

The wonderful thing about Pathfinder is that it does allow for such a huge amount of variation in game play. I can run a game for a group of folks who only want to play catfolk or drow nobles or anthropomorphic badger gunslingers for that matter.

Organized, open gaming is in a very difficult situation though. It has to appeal to as wide a player base as possible. So, has to appeal to those who want immersive game play, casual game play, high fantasy, low fantasy, strategy, and role play. Push the campaign too far one way and you upset any number of groups of players.

There is definitely room for furries in organized game play. Even if they don't have a boon to play a special race. I know that Alex Draconis, in Oakland, has a Druid who never appears in human form. Now, I know that this isn't as much as you and many others would like to have it, however it does provide an outlet.

Even more importantly, open gaming provides you an opportunity to meet and recruit others who also would love to get into a home game that really pushes the boundaries on what they can play or do.

[Jiggy]

Will Johnson wrote:

There is definitely room for furries in organized game play. Even if they don't have a boon to play a special race.

I was going to bring this up earlier, but forgot:

Step 1: Pick a race that supports your furry concept mechanically.
Step 2: Make sure Disguise is a class skill, don't dump CHA, buy a disguise kit.
Step 3: Begin each session by passing a note to the GM, saying "I'm technically a half-elf, but everyone thinks I'm a catfolk unless they make a DC 19 perception check".
Step 4: Profit!

I know it's not a perfect solution, but it might help. :)

[CRobledo]

Addressing this part of the OP post as well:

Remember you can always fluff your items in different ways. Buy a Hat of Disguise, Greater and say you look like a Kitsune or Cat folk. Buy some cold weather gear, and fluff it to describe is as an animal pelt that you wear and makes you look a bit like a bear. Heck, even with some Bluff and Disguise checks other characters will believe you as well!

I'm aware of it not being the race per se, but if what you want is flavor for your character, there are ways to do it even now.

edit: Jiggy is the biggest ninja ever, fo' srs!

[Chris Mortika]

Last fall, several of us who'd attended Gen-Con came to the local game day with new PCs. I was playing an Oread monk, with a Dhampyr cleric, a Tengu ranger, a Tiefling magus, and a Half-orc ninja.

When the half-orc ninja throwing farming tools is the normal character in the party, the session stops looking like Golarion.

So, here's a suggestion: a series of low-level scenarios in which several races are open. These are the Pathfinder Special Ops squad missions, where a grippli or a hobgoblin can use its racial skills without let or hindrance. Probably a lot of the retributtive attack sort of missions.

[Dan Luckett]

Matthew Morris wrote:

2) I'm not aware of anyone saying 'open up everything' No book, including the CRB, has everything open.

Not for or against: Just wanted it notated that there are multiple books that have nothing open to PFS (Goblins of Golarion, Orcs of Golarion, and maybe more that I'm not thinking of.)

[Andrew Christian]

Will Johnson wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

I love monkeys!

I think this is the key take-away.

Absolutely!

[Todd Morgan]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Todd Morgan wrote:

Reasons for restricting races in PFS

1. Race boons are a huge draw for conventions. By opening them up, you eliminate a cheap way for Paizo to support small conventions.
2. The ARG is not campaign specific and it's possible that some of these races don't even appear in Golarion.
3. Some of the races that do appear in Golarion are wholly evil which wouldn't work for PFS as you cannot play an evil character.

Rail against any PFS restriction all you want, the reason for them is to have a better, longer lasting campaign as a whole.

I think we have all seen the power creep in an OP campaign where everything is wide open (and how that turned out) and I would hope people enjoy playing PFS enough to know that the restrictions the leadership put in place are for the benefit of everyone and are not created lightly.

1) Which is why we had an entire thread suggesting alternatives.

2) I'm not aware of anyone saying 'open up everything' No book, including the CRB, has everything open.

3) See 2 above.

And actually your statement 1 conflicts with your statement "Rail against any PFS restriction all you want, the reason for them is to have a better, longer lasting campaign as a whole."

Did you read the original post at all? That is exactly what they want, a completely open book. I was replying to the original poster WHY nothing had been opened yet.

What about having convention boons conflicts with PFS restrictions? They are two completely different things.

[Shivok]

Daniel Luckett wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

2) I'm not aware of anyone saying 'open up everything' No book, including the CRB, has everything open.

Not for or against: Just wanted it notated that there are multiple books that have nothing open to PFS (Goblins of Golarion, Orcs of Golarion, and maybe more that I'm not thinking of.)

Dan - Orcs of Golarion has some portions open....u gave me a little scare, had to check the Additional resources page to make sure my character was legal.

[WalterGM]

Fromper wrote:

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Fromper wrote:

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Jewelfox wrote:

But I and my friends also aren't showing up to our FLGS to play PFS and spend $$$.

PFS has no admission price. That's determined by the GM/FLGS.

$3.99 per scenario looks like an admission price to me.

Admission fees are paid to participate. One person needs to own a copy of the scenario. As a GM I ate that cost. I didn't charge anyone admission.

The OP's point, and mine in pointing out the $3.99 per scenario, is that if players aren't playing PFS, then Paizo is losing money. It doesn't matter who pays the $3.99, it's still money that Paizo could be making and isn't. And for a group playing a weekly game, it adds up.

As a company, Paizo wants money. As people, Paizo wants to make a solid product. As an organized play group, they want to have a stable world. As has been stated by those more eloquent -- a lot of the ARG doesn't really fit into the PFS world. If/when it does, I'd expect you might see it introduced.

Regarding the 3.99 thing. My point is that it's such a small amount to be asking for entertainment. That's a dollar an hour. Theoretically divided by a GM and four players. That's twenty cents an hour to have fun. I'm amazed that people who have the coin to pay for internet, a computer, and have the free time to post on forums really complain about that price.

Should the authors not get paid? The people that go to cons not get boons? Who prints those off? What about the artists? The editors? The people that organize events -- should they not get support from Paizo for doing so?

Twenty cents an hour? Heck, I pay a full dollar an hour so my players don't have to -- because it's worth it.

[Jason S]

To the OP,

Honestly, you don't know what PFS wants because Brock hasn't laid all of his cards on the table. Maybe they're waiting to see how powerful/unbalancing the new races are before deciding on what to do? They're looking for other options for non-race convention boons, so obviously they are considering opening up races for everyone in PFS.

My opinion is that almost all players I've ever seen choose races because they power game. Maybe this doesn't include you and your friends? If people even remotely roleplayed (most don't), I wouldn't have a problem with a bunch of Aasimar and Kitsune at my tables. Unfortunately, it will be a bunch of dudes that speak and act as themselves, just looking for additional buffs. Yay! And because of that, we'll rarely see the core races (at low levels) in the future because even non-powergamers will be attracted to something that is shiny and new. I hope Brock/Moreland plan on having more tier 1-5 scenarios, because between PC deaths and new races, we'll need them.

The weird theory isn't true, PFS players are 100% accepting of weird, even if most players aren't weird themselves.

And you lost me on that entire furry rant, but if you want to sexy talk with your insatiable sexy Kitsune during a game, it's fine with me. Could be the best part of the scenario. :)

[Matthew Morris]

Todd Morgan wrote:

What about having convention boons conflicts with PFS restrictions? They are two completely different things.

You said the restriction on races was to give convention boons, that is not a reason "to have a better, longer lasting campaign as a whole."

I can't help it when you contradict yourself.

[Todd Morgan]

I'm sorry, that's just wrong :P

By supporting local conventions, you always have a better, longer running campaign. Look at Living Greyhawk if you don't believe me.

[Drogon]

Todd Morgan wrote:

I'm sorry, that's just wrong :P

By supporting local conventions, you always have a better, longer running campaign. Look at Living Greyhawk if you don't believe me.

Sorry, I have to chime in on this one, and correct your sentence. It *should* read:

"By ALSO supporting local conventions, you will have a better, longer running campaign..."

Ignore local groups and local stores, and the campaign will die just as violent a death as you think it will if conventions are not supported.

Conventions, on the other hand, are something that are "unique" in terms of the experience. I do believe that different boons should be available at those than are available via other means. Likewise, I think certain things should *not* be available to conventions, and should instead be limited to local/store play.

That last paragraph is just my opinion, of course.

[Todd Morgan]

QFT Drgon, QFT

[Patrick Harris @ SD]

The numbering in the following quote was added by me, because I'm lazy, and it makes it easier to respond to.

Jason S wrote:

#1: My opinion is that almost all players I've ever seen choose races because they power game. Maybe this doesn't include you and your friends? If people even remotely roleplayed (most don't), I wouldn't have a problem with a bunch of Aasimar and Kitsune at my tables. Unfortunately, it will be a bunch of dudes that speak and act as themselves, just looking for additional buffs. Yay! And because of that, we'll rarely see the core races (at low levels) in the future because even non-powergamers will be attracted to something that is shiny and new. I hope Brock/Moreland plan on having more tier 1-5 scenarios, because between PC deaths and new races, we'll need them.

#2: The weird theory isn't true, PFS players are 100% accepting of weird, even if most players aren't weird themselves.

#3: And you lost me on that entire furry rant, but if you want to sexy talk with your insatiable sexy Kitsune during a game, it's fine with me. Could be the best part of the scenario. :)

#1: I agree. There is sometimes a dearth of RP that I find disappointing. That being said, I strive to set an example by playing my character to the best of my abilities, which (if I may say so, in my humble, etc) aren't too shabby. I've drawn GMs who flat out said they weren't that great at RPing into it, and I'm trying to get other players into it too, with varying degrees of success. This will be a problem if the ARG races are all available suddenly. But you know what? People are powergaming human builds, too. Maybe if they're some weird alien race, other people at the table can say to them, "Hey, dude, that's nothing like your character. Play your character, why don't you?"

#2: I disagree. This has not been my experience at all. The average geek-to-freak ratio at PFS is high. Even I tend to keep myself reigned in a bit, and it's definitely not because I'm afraid of rejection. Instead, it's because people get weirded out, and they don't know how to cope, and then things are awkward. Yes, geeks fancy themselves "weird," because "weird" is the opposite of "normal," and our subculture's underdog status is critical to its identity. But many geeks are still very conservative in their thinking, and it shows in their reaction to that which they consider truly weird.

#3: See, this is exactly the opposite of where I draw the line. I don't care if every single person at the table is a furry, and tingly in their special places the whole time, as long as they don't involve me in their sexuality. As soon as you draw other gamers into your fetish without their consent, you're transgressing on their right to say "No." I have a few non-standard interests myself, some of which come up during game, and I don't discuss them, because they're not relevant. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy their presence in what amounts to an afternoon of fantasy storytelling--oh, believe me, I do--but I don't make a point of telling other people about it, thereby involving them in my interests. In sum: Non-furry playing human character who licks every manacle we pass in the dungeon: Bad. Furry playing furry character who frequently discusses what he's humping: Also bad. You dig?

[Dan Luckett]

Shivok wrote:

Daniel Luckett wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

2) I'm not aware of anyone saying 'open up everything' No book, including the CRB, has everything open.

Not for or against: Just wanted it notated that there are multiple books that have nothing open to PFS (Goblins of Golarion, Orcs of Golarion, and maybe more that I'm not thinking of.)

Dan - Orcs of Golarion has some portions open....u gave me a little scare, had to check the Additional resources page to make sure my character was legal.

Sorry, Still mostly human here. The VC Kool-Aid Nanites that Dragnmoon keeps saying I ingested must slow in turning me into a robot.