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How do I divvy up items?


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The only guy I have who does this does it right he takes from a chest or body but he never screws anyone on it. He might make out with a handful of coins or a fist sized gem. But he won't take weapons or such and claim he never found them.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:

I've got to say, I'm a bit jealous of this sneaky rogue. It would have been even better if he sold it, then gave you just the wealth you needed so as to buy it, as a friend, so you are indebted to him, and then referred you to the shop, and took a cut from the seller to get an immediate buyer.

Dm is right, got to know it to act. Sad but true.

Indeed, which is why matters of group loot should not be hidden from the other players. I wasn't the only one at the table outraged by what had happened. We were all angry, and thankfully the GM recognized the issues this had caused. The rogue, however, refused to play along; he insisted he was simply playing his character and should be allowed to continue.

He was kicked him from the group. Incidentally we had no further troubles.

A game cannot thrive when there is discord among the players at the table. Hiding wealth and stealing from the rest of the party is one of the fastest ways to cause such discord. You can play a sneaky thieving rogue without cheating the others players. When you can;t trust the other players, everyone loses.


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Grollub wrote:

While some may think it's "within character" to steal from the party as a thief. It is counter productive to the party as a whole, not only in game but outside of game as well.

In game... you're screwing over the people who help to keep you alive.

And bad people sometimes do bad things to folk that are helping them.

Quote:
Out of game.. it's bound to cause hard feelings if you are totally ripping them off.

Some games, I am certain that is the case. I have been in quite a few groups where we laughed about it afterwards. But, then again, that was always with friends and never with first time players in the group.

Quote:
I for one, kill any thief when my character finds out, irregardless if they "pay up or not" ( I tend to the evil side of things ).

Awesome IC responce, serves the rogue right for messing up bigtime with the wrong mark.

Quote:
As a GM I've seen this multiple times where 1 player "skims off the top" thousands of gold from the party coffers, and plays the downlow to hide it for a while, then wonders why he's in deep trouble when the jig is up.

Well, the character skimmed I hope...and if caught, I can easily see the rogue trying to downplay the act. "Honest officer, it was my first time! Never happen again. Party scout's honor. Wait?! What do you mean you are going to kill me?! It is just coin!!! C'mon guys! I will pay it back... honest."

If it is the player getting upset, well, truthfully, that does seem kind of immature. If one is going to play with fire, expect to get burnt.

Greg


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I have to say this argument has gotten way too black and white. There is a great difference between a thief who pockets a gem now and then and a thief who takes key magic items (like the sword in the above example).

I played in a three year game where the thief took small sums and we all knew it. He would hold up a bag of gold and a wand and say "look what I found", but pocket the 100gp gem for example.

I think Heaven's Agent is right that "stealing from the rest of the party is one of the fastest ways to cause such discord" but I disagree that every single bit of treasure is needed in the group pile to make everyone happy. The group can work with the thief's player to find a place where both can be achived.


danielc wrote:
I think Heaven's Agent is right that "stealing from the rest of the party is one of the fastest ways to cause such discord" but I disagree that every single bit of treasure is needed in the group pile to make everyone happy. The group can work with the thief's player to find a place where both can be achived.

I agree completely; not every piece of loot needs to be considered part of the group pot and divided up as such, but the group needs to be aware of all loot that is gained and decide together what is to be done. Hiding your gains is never a good idea, and outright stealing from your companions should never be permitted.

Osirion

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Shifty wrote:

That's Player Business.

GM's to stay clear of that part... well well clear.

I have learnt the hard way siding with one player in the past. All I can say is make sure that equipment is immediately recorded on charater sheets and don't just let a record be kept.

Beware the wizard with plans to make items. They are usually the player that feels ripped off as they do not get as many big item drops as the fighter types.


A thief character was played, entirely in character, and he got kicked from the actual gaming group? I am baffled.

Yep, dan, it is an old trick. Goes back far into second ed at least, as far as I know.

So it has been happening for decades, and some don't like it. Simple.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Yep, dan, it is an old trick. Goes back far into second ed at least, as far as I know.

So it has been happening for decades, and some don't like it. Simple.

First edition too. Remember many a thief character taken aside in games and told, "if we catch you stealing from the group, we are gonna cut off your <insert body part>."

But, I am not saying every group it must be a rogue stealing from the group. I am saying that not every PLAYER group is inherently hostile to the PLAYER for having such a character.

Truthfully, I have been in player groups that loved Tinker gnomes and Kender characters. Those are tables I step away from. *shudders*

Greg


Given the skill set of the thief of 1st ed, good luck catching them once they get a few levels.

I'm not trying to be hip and trendy here, but I find I don't agree much with the dictats of a group deciding things for my pc, unless I am the group leader. So I stick to playing individual CG characters, and ignore directives. Unless I'm playing a char that would respect such an unelected assembly. Absolutely pull my own weight and contribute though.

If a party member stole a bit, I don't think I'd mind so much, but would laugh if they got caught "what is the dc to make a hangman's knot?". I guess it is just a thief being accepting that other thieves are out there.

Thieves. Parties love them if there are traps, hate them if they skim loot.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
A thief character was played, entirely in character, and he got kicked from the actual gaming group? I am baffled.

A player ran his rogue as a thief and insisted on being able to steal from the party. After his actions were identified as the cause of strife among the players and difficulty within the game he was told to stop. He refused, and was kicked as a result. A rogue does not have to be played as a lying thief that steals from his supposed allies. That's a player decision.

If this baffles you, then there's nothing else that can be said: you are entirely missing the point of the game.

And for what it's worth, we got through traps fine without him. Rogues are not nearly as important as some think they are.


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Is also good to remember that loot is almost NEVER equally divided up by the party. Unless the party sold every piece of loot they had, divided the wealth equally among the party members, with remaining bits of coin used in a way not benefitting anyone pc over the others. Haven't seen it done that way in a while but the dm at one point made everyone take a level in expert. Specializing specifically in accounting. Hence began the accounting chronicles.


Not the accounting, noooooooo!

There are many points and reasons to play D&D/Pathfinder, Heaven, it is naïve to claim there is just one.

As examples, other reasons to play the game other than to obey the group and never hurt their feelings.

1) To have fun.
2) To play through a story.
3) To change a story and impact a fantasy world.
4) To play a character.
5) To advance and develop a character.
6) To overcome serious obstacles a take a lot of risks, also on the way to 1, fun.
7) To accrue loot, items, and beef your characters stats and potential (this can get out of hand, especially if the rest are under-emphasised and this one over-emphasised).

There is not just one "point", but you would like to claim there is. Sorry, but you are wrong.


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In regards to the party getting along with each other, it is important for the game to continue. However, not every single pc gets along with each other. They aren't married to each other or joined at the hip. Party conflict does happen. That is between characters. I remember a dodgy rogue noble-wannabe. He claimed himself to be honourable and all that but would attack opponents who were not even raising a hand at the party. One was even badly injured. I guess he was role-playing the character's low wisdom and doing it pretty well. It reached the point where there was a city overrun by zombies. Certain commoners who very recently turned adventurer enter the city and grab some supplies. The rest of the populace wants them to share but they don't have enough and aren't willing. Up rocks a selfless lawful good monk. He meets the pc and agrees to come along to hear the adventurers' sides of the story. It very quickly became apparent that the rogue had no intention of being lawful despite proclaiming so. Decided to arrest them and throw them to the angry mob. Mob justice. Lol. Monk disagrees, states that there isn't a clearly established military and laws. With his high wisdom he sees the act for precisely for what it is: Respect and acceptance from the masses at the expense of a few poor bastards. So combat ensues and the monk proceeds to incapacitate him and his men. There was help from other npcs, especiallly a hob-goblin npc who was CG. Rogue pc is not killed but is incapped and stuff is taken by the npcs. Thats an example of two pcs not getting along. One pc goes" I will be dodgy and very morally questionable since it benefits me." Other pc who is altruistic says:"no you won't."


The weirdest force-push towards getting along I've encountered, was with a newish dm. Guy said we all woke up drunk, some naked (questionable?) and we were all friends. I thought for a moment, and added, "but I'm not sure Skadi has friends". This guy wasn't really into friendship. Yeah he could cooperate with a party, but he was more interested in ladies than in his compatriots and their feelings, if you know what I mean?

Good story, yep, the evil commander turning against the good party was a great and memorable bit of rp.


The short of it IMO is don't play characters that are going to be disruptive to party unity unless it's been agreed to by all that PvP style playing is par for the course before hand.*

If you're joining a new group, ask how they feel about that sort of thing beforehand, explain to any new player joining your group how you play things.

If the rest of the players aren't cool with their character being stolen from then don't play the sort of character for which it is "in character" to do so. If you do, expect to be quickly kicked out.

*Of course if PvP is on the table, then you'd better be cool when it turns out that Joe's new character is a Bard or Sorcerer who enjoys picking on weak willed thieves and amuses himself by casting heightened Dominate Person and the like on your thief, totally in character, of course.


Yep, rogues aren't invincible, but they sure can be good at theft.


WaySeeker wrote:
Like if there is a sword in the chest, who gets it? I can see splitting up XP, coins, even potions (fudge it so each person gets 1 or something, or just let a magic-user or whoever IDs it have it), but what about the big items?

If the players have issues figuring out who takes what then suggest the "debt" system.

All loot is sold and divided equally among the party, if, however, someone sees a sword they like and want to keep, they can take it and then owe the party the sell price of that sword. He gives up his share of the loot to be divided among the rest of the party until he reaches the point where his debt has been paid off.

If more than one person wants something and they can't talk it out in a few minutes just have them each roll a d20 and whoever gets the higher roll gets the item (and the debt that comes with it).

This way everything is "fair" and the person who wants the sword still gets it at half price.

Generally speaking things that can be helpful to the entire party (like wands/scrolls/potions containing healing spells, or identify or the like) are charged to no one even if they're being carried/use by the party wizard or cleric.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

There is no backstab here, that is an entirely separate thing, and limited to previous editions, lol.

It is profiteering, now the members of the group want to profit (or don't if they are vow of poverty monks), but they are also individuals. Most certainly so since the chars are run through separate players. If one scouting rogue goes I'll just take this, and not declare it, maybe make a bluff later, that is just a rapscallion being a rapscallion, a bounder being a bounder, a rogue being a rogue.

Are you fine with your PC being kicked out of the group, or even killed, if he's caught? Are the other players fine with PvP? If not, then avoid screwing them over - the social contract says don't do it. If the social contract allows for your PC to be a jerk and take the consequences, then ok.


Not sure rogues really buy into the social contract, unless they are LG. Damn mavericks!

Rogues are risk-takers, seizing jewels or light loot before the party sees them, picking pockets when they are drunk at the tavern, it is all just another layer of risk.

Osirion

Sure all rogues are risk takers... but not all are choatic by nature. Most party buying in treks involves some contract getting X from Y. :)


An established understanding of what sort of limits before the game is underway should happen. If everyone is fine with it, no problem. Otherwise, it shouldn't happen. Of course, not every dm is going to sit the players down before the campaign starts and read them the ten commandments. It may not even be a rogue who is taking more than their fair share. Fighter, ranger, bard, wizard, cleric etc. They can also do the same thing. Alot of pre-lude assumptions which are "set in stone." If that is the game you run, its all good if everyone has fun. However, don't assume that there is only one way to play and those who do not follow the same style are inexperienced/poor/jackass gamers. Seen a lot of the "my way or the highway" mentality. Not an impressive sight, especially when the player/dm is right there in front of you.


Kev is my favourite rogue of all time. He has his priorities right as an evil rogue.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/RenoCraft/zogonia25.jpg

Kev - human rogue. His actions throughout the comics imply that he is of Evil alignment- most likely the traditional "Neutral Evil" of a scummy rogue. He is lazy, self-absorbed and greedy, but is quite skilled with the various skills of a thief (picking locks and disarming traps primarily). He is also equally skilled at brutally murdering anything and anyone that sufficiently irks him, though he is so lazy he tends to sit on the sidelines when Domato and Dindil are fighting in dungeons.

http://annex.wikia.com/wiki/Zogonia

Andoran

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Rogues are risk-takers, seizing jewels or light loot before the party sees them, picking pockets when they are drunk at the tavern, it is all just another layer of risk. ... Kev is my favourite rogue of all time. He has his priorities right as an evil rogue.

If you want to play evil characters, then the rest of your party can play evil characters. If you get caught stealing from them, you should be happy if your character just gets killed and animated as undead. There are much more horrific things that could be done to them.

Back to the main topic... It's totally anachronistic, but "For all practical purposes : introduction to contemporary mathematics" has some very interesting discussion on this and other topics of practical interest. http://www.colorado.edu/education/DMP/fair_division.html has a few algorithms, and if you gave the PCs a magical fair divider, you could even use something like http://www.math.hmc.edu/~su/fairdivision/calc/ .

(Okay, so I've never got to use such things in game. In my most recent party, it's always been "who wants this" and "well, you'll benefit from it more, but I can take your old one". Boring, civilized ways of handling it.)


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Not sure rogues really buy into the social contract, unless they are LG. Damn mavericks!

The player social contract, not the PC contract! :) You need to keep the two clearly distinguished in your head. It's ok to play antisocial PCs if the other _players_ are happy with it, whatever their PCs think!


To the OP - divvying up items is a player issue not a GM issue. If you want to influence it then the best thing is not to allow item purchase, and hand out items with an obvious user. With free item purchase those items may be sold; without it you can be fairly sure they'll be used by your preferred PC.

Cheliax

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
A thief character was played, entirely in character, and he got kicked from the actual gaming group? I am baffled.

Seriously?

A player was consistently acting in a manner that infuriated the other players, was asked to change his behaviour, refused to do so, and was kicked from the group. I fail to see what is so baffling.

What the actual behaviour was is irrelevant; would your group keep a player who was ruining everyone else's fun?

Since this is a beginner box thread (although I think it should probably be moved as it's more of a general discussion about stealing from the party) then the safest advice is for beginners not to steal from the party, since it can create player conflict that can disrupt even experienced groups.


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Heaven: so at level 4 you were 1000gp short to buy a magical weapon that you needed? But at level 4 your WBL should be between 6000 and 10500 gp. So how come being 1000gp short made it impossible to spend 2500gp or so on a magic weapon? Are you sure you had your buying priorities straight, or were you actually behind on WBL already?

And were there no alternatives? No priest that could cast Magic Weapon on your sword? Tiresome to do it every combat, but it's a fix.

And was there no reason IC to suspect the thief at all? You might not have seen him pocket any loot, but did he have suspiciously much money to spend? In that case you could set a trap for him - hide some loot, make him scout, and see if he reports the loot. To verify your suspicions.


That is a good idea, in fact it could also be a good test for every new party member. Ever hear of Vlad the impaler story about the merchant and the extra coin?

The Merchant's Money

A merchant was traveling through Dracula's kingdom when he remembered about the supposed honesty in it. He had nowhere to stay and the night was falling so he decided to leave his cart full of coins in a public plaza and go to sleep elsewhere.

In the morning, the merchant found 160 coins missing from his cart. Very depressed about this, he informed Dracula about his loss and Dracula promptly told him to stay in his palace for the night. Dracula then ordered his guards to find the thief or else he would destroy his whole kingdom and impale everyone within it.

Dracula secretly sent the 160 coins to the merchant's cart plus another coin. The next day, when the merchant returned to his cart, he was very pleased to find the 160 coins. When he went to thank Vlad the Impaler, he mentioned the extra coin. Vlad told the merchant that the thief had been caught and was being impaled at the moment and that if the merchant hadn't mentioned about the extra coin, he would have been impaled too.


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Interesting idea. Vlad was truly a visionary statesman (in the Lovecrafting sense of visionary, arguably).

Anyway, the rogue withholding the short sword the fighter needed was a dick move. I'd see the difference between nicking money/jewelry and an item clearly placed by the DM to rescue a PC. That's what I mean by OOC knowing how far you can go.

Also, it's stupid IC. Presumably the rogue noticed that monsters were getting hard to hit. If you arm the fighter so he can handle them, you're increasing your own survival odds. Withholding the sword is something a smart rogue only does if he's planning to leave/destroy the party soon.


Yep, it is isn't always easy to be the only survivor of a tpk.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Not sure rogues really buy into the social contract, unless they are LG. Damn mavericks!

Rogues are risk-takers, seizing jewels or light loot before the party sees them, picking pockets when they are drunk at the tavern, it is all just another layer of risk.

The player is the one that has to abide by the social contract. Not the character.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Heaven: so at level 4 you were 1000gp short to buy a magical weapon that you needed? But at level 4 your WBL should be between 6000 and 10500 gp. So how come being 1000gp short made it impossible to spend 2500gp or so on a magic weapon? Are you sure you had your buying priorities straight, or were you actually behind on WBL already?

Most of my wealth was in the form of useful magic and nonmagical goods that we had found as part of our adventures. I had very little actual coin, and while I could liquidate some of my gear that would end up leaving insufficient in other areas and have a negative net result on my overall wealth level.

Quote:
And were there no alternatives? No priest that could cast Magic Weapon on your sword? Tiresome to do it every combat, but it's a fix.

There were not, no. Doing this is not only tiresome, it saps your casters resources at an incredible rate, and pretty much forces you to abide by the 15 minute work day.

Quote:
And was there no reason IC to suspect the thief at all? You might not have seen him pocket any loot, but did he have suspiciously much money to spend? In that case you could set a trap for him - hide some loot, make him scout, and see if he reports the loot. To verify your suspicions.

No, we had no way of knowing. He had been accumulating his wealth, not spending it. IC we knew he was picking pockets on the side, possibly even ours, but no reason to suspect that he was swiping substantial quantities of coin and loot.


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I think that's just setting priorities then. If you thought the other magical items were more important, that's your choice.

Yeah, casting Magic Weapon is a bit of a drag for a priest, but is only a level 1 spell, and if it switches a whole fighter on, that's actually a pretty good buff; compare to Bull's Strength for example, it achieves far more in terms of damage and action economy. Besides, it creates support among other players to get you a permanent magical weapon, because everyone can see you need it.

And hey! Coincidentally the priest is always just out of spells when the rogue wants a Cure spell.

---

I agree that players need to abide by a social contract. I don't agree with your social contract; I think it's too extreme. Mine would be more like this:

* You can steal small-time stuff, particularly if you're alone.
* You don't start looting until the battle is won.
* You don't hide stuff that's obviously necessary for another player. You mostly get to steal from the "neutral" loot, like money and gems.

---

As a GM, you need to be a fair arbiter in this. If a PC does stuff in secret, he should get a fair chance to keep it secret. But that's not a guarantee; if you trek with people through the wilderness for months, it's pretty hard to hide that you're carrying a sword (a small precious stone is easier, and coin is anonymous). And magical stuff may be noticed if you happen to stand within a wizard's Detect Magic cone, which they use to find car keys and such all the time.

If you sell special loot in town, you risk rumor getting out. Selling it without your party finding out about it (AND noticing that you're being secretive) may not be easy. You'll be paying extra to the fence to keep his mouth shut.

Also, cursed items and monsters like Cloakers and Mimics are pretty harsh on rogues.

If the other PCs suspect him of picking their pockets, did they never go through his stuff to make sure? And then wonder about this odd-looking shortsword he never shows to anyone?


Most of my gear wasn't magic, and what was were things that a fighter really can't do without. My armor, for instance: selling it to buy a weapon would not have left me with enough coin to replace it with a mundane set. If I had sold my shield as well, maybe, but then I would have had the lowest AC in the group, too. Selling off useable items that are vital to your class is never a realistic option. You are always going to end up with less wealth than you started with, and you will be less effective at your role.

Ascalaphus wrote:

Yeah, casting Magic Weapon is a bit of a drag for a priest, but is only a level 1 spell, and if it switches a whole fighter on, that's actually a pretty good buff; compare to Bull's Strength for example, it achieves far more in terms of damage and action economy. Besides, it creates support among other players to get you a permanent magical weapon, because everyone can see you need it.

And hey! Coincidentally the priest is always just out of spells when the rogue wants a Cure spell.

Still imposes a mandatory 15-minute work day, though. And even in the best situation there is no net gain for the party: I would have been buffed to effectiveness, but then the cleric was rendered ineffective.

Ascalaphus wrote:
If the other PCs suspect him of picking their pockets, did they never go through his stuff to make sure? And then wonder about this odd-looking shortsword he never shows to anyone?

He sold the short sword for half and pocketed the coin. IC we had no reason to check his stuff. As I mentioned, we all knew he was a thief, but there was no indication of how much he was pocketing. We didn't even know that until the GM told him to tally his cache.


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I think, like anything else in the game, as long as it's not disruptive, let the rogue have his fun. It could be a plot for later use (eg. The Hobbit). It all comes down to if the players can handle that sort of thing or not. If the PLAYERS are going to get offended, it's best to put a rule in place that such attempts will be noticed, or thwarted by the DM, most of the time.

The DM can always talk to the players and say, "okay, I'm keeping track of how much cash everyone has, and those who lag behind will be given an opportunity to make up for it." That way, if the rogue chooses to steal to get his cash (which is perfectly valid for the character), the other PLAYERS know that his stealing will not be allowed to over-balance the game in his favor.


Casting a level 1 spell several times a day is hardly a 15min work day. Annoying, but not the end of the world.

Anyway, I agree with rando's point: the GM should keep an eye on the wealth distribution in-party and if necessary correct it.

To my mind it aids immersion if the rogue can actually derive part of his wealth from stealing, while an upright character benefits from a good reputation and gets a break from traders/temples etc. Maybe your fighter could get the sword as a gift from an uncle who's retiring from the soldier business.

I would rather have such corrections by the GM after WBL tally disguised as IC events, than the very strict OOC rules you advocate.


Good idea on the npcs helping the honest fighter, while the rogue profits from dishonesty through skill.

Andoran

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Ascalaphus wrote:
To my mind it aids immersion if the rogue can actually derive part of his wealth from stealing,

My problem is that I feel that players who play rogues like this want to be the exception. It aids immersion if my enchanter actually mind-controls people, so magically coercing the rogue to hold off the dragon a few rounds while we escape should be okay? It aids immersion if the fighter can actually derive part of his wealth from killing people and taking their stuff, so killing the rogue and taking his stuff should be fine, right?

Your group wants to play like this, more power to you. But the rogue should not have the exclusive right to be abusive to the other characters, and it seems like the rogue player who wants to steal from the other characters wants the excuse to do this no matter how much it annoys the other players and characters.


Ascalaphus wrote:

If as a GM you notice that there's a significant wealth disparity in the party, AND that it's causing real trouble, you can intervene subtly. The cleric/paladin's order gives them a magical weapon needed for the current quest, while the thieves' guild says they have other things on their mind right now, or are just not trusting enough to hand over something powerful. The result is that the cleric/paladin is rewarded for being virtuous while the rogue is rewarded for rogue behavior; both players got to play in the style of their class. I like that much better than OOC forbidding the rogue from stealing like a rogue.

You can also point out to the rogue player that you're fine with him getting some more loot, but you do want to keep WBL in balance, and that he should find some cool things to spend it on that don't really affect his relative anti-monster potential compared to the rest of the party. Result: the rogue is spending a lot more on booze and loose women than the paladin, but overall WBL stays the same in the party.

I find this to be a great example how a little OOC cooperation between players and GM can easily allow for the RP of a selfish character while still adhering to the social contract between players and keeping everyone around equal WBL.


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Well, I for one am sort of guilty as far as this behavior goes. My bard in a 4E game is keeping a tiny bit more money for the group than she should be, strictly- she handles the group's money, and keeps in in the Bag of Holding along with most everyone's useless gear and stuff to hawk... Except for two characters, who insist on keeping their own money. As a result, she usually winds up giving them a silver or two less, either because it's a pain to divide properly [our GM insists on separate coin totals], or if she thinks they can afford it. But she always announces what magic items the group has obtained, and always lets the others decide on who gets what, while giving her input, which usually winds up being what the group decides on due to the logic behind it.

She's a selfish character in that she eventually plans on taking some of her share of the money and sending it home to her parents, and technically cheating the other two out of minuscule amounts of money in the meantime. But to be fair, the majority of the purchasing in the game is done by her anyway, and she'd be more than willing to help out if the two who keep their own money needed it. So she has a certain amount of team spirit [although she's usually the one calling the rest of the team morons...] and ability to lead... It's a bit of a gray area for myself.


Between Loyalist and Heaven, I've been on both sides. One was with the rogue holding (no joke) about 85% of the wealth in a level 6 game with eight players. But he was an experienced player and other half of us were playing in our first campaign. In the next game, he went so far as to be on an opposing faction's payroll as assassin and saboteur. This time, however, players were more aware of the "Looking out for #1" nature of humanity that should be recognized. Most people in the game world know to be wary of certain things.

Mechanically speaking, only a druid has an even chance of catching a thief on a flat opposed skill check if I remember correctly (at higher levels).

As a rogue, I used a rule of thumb like... I shouldn't have more than ~10% of the rest of the party. A smart thief knows when he has a sweet gig (healer? check. meatshield? check.) Taking too much runs the risk of the previously mentioned not having a resource that reduces the group's cash flow. In Heaven's example, his problem could have been remedied by the cleric keeping a few Magic Weapon spells handy for the nasty looking ones.

"Priest, could the Powers That Be that grant your blessings spare one or two for the bigger of the nasties? The troll we fought a fortnight ago had worse bug bites than sword slashes by the end if things."

With that example in mind, the cleric will have a smaller reserve of spells available. By comparison though, there were plenty of other options available to Heaven. Buying a handful of scrolls (3-4) would cost you 75-100g until you could otherwise afford your sword. Some DMs will allow wands with fewer than 50 charges. If a group of adventurers are together for some amount of time and one of them can't keep up for certain reasons (DR/Magic), then who would begrudge giving up part of their share on the next haul to make sure the party meatshield is still around? I think


Note: Premature submitted post, trouble with edit function.

I think even Loyalist would admit that a savvy rogue would know that to be a smart investment. Hell, a really smart rogue would go out of his way to look altruistic about giving the money to the Fighter to obtain his good will, only to later manipulate it to get a bigger score later. If the group decides to go their separate ways, the thief can still make off with his severance package before they split. A short-sighted rogue with a high dexterity is putting his own neck on the chopping block.

If the difference is in magic items, you should either hang the limitless Detect Magickers or the DM for not mentioning that the rogue started lighting up all of sudden. A basic spellcraft check and intelligence would allow you to put together a ballpark number for wealth. If he notices that it increases a good deal more than everyone else, then there are few explanations assuming that no extended downtime is permitted due to the adventure at hand. Once suspicion is on, then the skimming will likely decrease and/or stop for the near future. A couple of brusiers and a Circle of Truth can go a long way. Cheers!


i was thinking of letting the charachters dish it out "IN CHARACHTER" meaning if a barbarrian says "ooh +2 greatsword MINE!!" (whell he wont know until a caster told him it is tho) but he would go smashy smashy if he wouldnt get it

a paladin would be all about a fair split or he aint a paladin maybe even toss for it when there is doubth but never do anything what isnt fair

o rogue would try to steal get it while nobosy is seeing it. and it would be hard to play as ooc you would have to ask what the rogue can see and what he can take while nobody seen it so ooc the other players know but with good checks they are none the wiser.

it also depends on their alignment ofcourse


Heaven's Agent wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
A thief character was played, entirely in character, and he got kicked from the actual gaming group? I am baffled.

A player ran his rogue as a thief and insisted on being able to steal from the party. After his actions were identified as the cause of strife among the players and difficulty within the game he was told to stop. He refused, and was kicked as a result. A rogue does not have to be played as a lying thief that steals from his supposed allies. That's a player decision.

If this baffles you, then there's nothing else that can be said: you are entirely missing the point of the game.

And for what it's worth, we got through traps fine without him. Rogues are not nearly as important as some think they are.

as others said your GM could have prevented this easily by alowing one of the party stumble on his loot somehow and killing the rougue forcing him to reroll another character. or just kill him by devine intervention. if an in game action upsets you irl its the GM's task to fix it.


Heaven's Agent wrote:

I apologize for the insult, but I had had it with your repeated "rogue playing a rogue." It overlooks the issue, and does so with a narrow perspective that fails to address the breadth of what can and does occur in the game. I was voicing a very real concern, which you stated as nothing more than exaggeration.

I've played and run non-standard characters before. To great effect, though I have occasionally run into gearing issues with them as well.

But this time I was playing, and had built, a garden-variety fighter. My build was focused on using a specific type of melee weapon in combat, as is typical for basic fighters. I had a bow, but I wasn't any good with it. I tried other tactics, but with a build emphasizing the use of melee weapons my results were lackluster at best in those roles.

For his part my GM tried to get me the weapon I needed. He added it to a pile of loot the group earned, and I was the only member of the party that used short swords. However, the rogue tucked it away immediately after we downed the boss and before we could examine our gains. The bugger sold it the next time we were in town and pocketed the coin for himself; I was only around 1000gp below the expected wealth level, but the rogue had squirreled away over 2.5K gold that the rest of the party didn't know about; we were aware he was sneaking some coin, but were instructed we could not act upon it because that would be metagaming. And we had no idea how much of our loot he had appropriated, all while claiming an equal share of our divided gains as well.

i think this is more of a GM issue than anything els. a GM should alow evryone to be happy with the game even pickpocketing rogues BUT!! even a rogue establishes a repor with the players and notices that they are saving his life and alowing him to gain in wealth so it is his best intrests to make sure his party is strong enough to defend him. stealing a bit of the top is fine as long it doenst affect the efectiveness in combat or it would hurt him too and no rogue has a death wish.

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