I'll be running Rise of the Runelords soon and a player has asked if he can have the Bone Revelation with a dip into Oracle that scales with him, when his base Class is a Witch.
A Witch uses Intelligence and an Oracle uses Charisma, but his stats are focused entirely on Intelligence.
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 20 (+2 Human)
Wis: 10
Cha: 10
Now, I was thinking if I got him to focus a little on Charisma, I would let him count his Oracle levels as Witch levels for determining his Revelation Power (Armour of Bones), but I don't want to make things unfair on the other players, so what's the best way I can go about this?
If I said he could use the Oracle Powers with his Intelligence instead of Charisma, would that be fine?
Should I allow him to use the Armour of Bones as one of his Hex's instead, so he doesn't have to go one level Oracle? It would probably be the easiest way to do this as all he'd be doing is spending a Hex on it, could use it with his Intelligence and stay as a Witch throughout.
I want to do this in a way where it won't be broken (doesn't seem like it's game breaking at all tbh, but his Witch raises the dead, so thematically the Bone Revelation fits), but will be fair and balanced out.
I don't usually GM, which is why I'm asking for advice on the best way I can do this.
We;ll be starting next Tuesday.
Thanks very much. :)
Hmm, well he wants to be a Witch because his concept is a Harrower who can raise the dead to fight for him.
Witch was the only Harrowing Class he wanted to be, so I figured that was fair enough.
Making this replace a Hex is acceptable I feel, as apart from my Girlfriend playing a Magus, the other two will be using a Vanilla Barbarian and a Sword and Shield Fighter, so I don't really see it as a problem as it's just treating this as if it were on the Witches spell list and being Intelligence based, for fluff, we could say for years she studied the arts of Undead and has developed abilities from the Oracle list to use through mental thinking, rather than Charisma.
He won't be getting the spells from the Oracle list if I do it this way. It'll just literally replace one hex for this ability. So, I don't think it'll give him a huge advantage really.
You could work together to build an archetype for the witch who has an ability that works like armor of bones but gives up something else (and not something he never wanted to use to begin with.
If he already has an archetype think about hwo you could change that archetype.
Something I could think of would be to use raise dead to animate some bones to protect you instead of making them become a skeleton.
Don't do it, I had a simialr problem with one of my players and the chartcter became so overpowered it was ridiculus, it ruined the game.
The player had a witch and wanted an oracle curse and some of the spells and mysteries combined to add to the hexes and patron spells. I tried to compensate as I liked the concept but It didn't work out too well and was really hard to tone down. In the end the player became almost like a demi-god overshadowing the other players.
Stick to the classes as is or if the player wants Oracle as well as witch powers let tell him to multi-class instead. It will save you a lot of grief and the other players will thank you for it.
and yes if you go the route as cyberknight says make sure he gets a curse.
It sounds like it could be that the player may be playing up to the fact that you don't Dm very much, maybe he is seeing if he can as cyberknight says cherrypick the best bits of certain classes, maybe see what he can get away with. Some powergamers are like that unfortunatley.
I'm pretty sure that's what my player was doing. I'm Dming a new game game now and one of the parameters was that classes are as they are in the rules. Its working out great now.
Then again he may just have a good concept, maybe find a way of making the Necromancer concept for the witch work instead.
One thing I don't understand: that armor of bones mainly gives him an armor AC bonus, right?
And actually, the way it is described I'd make it a worn armor with arcane spell failure and all...
Why can't he just take the witch spell "mage armor" and describe it as looking like bones?
It's the same bonus and they don't stack.
I fear he is either very inexperienced or he'll try to abuse your inexperience as a DM. Some rules are rather spread out and not really obvious to beginners. Make sure he is not stacking boni that do not stack! A witch has a lot of offense (just search this forum for people complaining about the sleeping stuff from the witch), if you give her a lot of defense too, that character might quickly get out of hand (if that player is really trying to "break it").
To sum it up: that ability doesn't do anything the witch couldn't do on her own... if it's just looks, just allow him to describe the spell's look as he likes.
Ask him what he is really looking for. Also tell him: either he gives you a full build (till level ~20) or you reserve the right to veto anything even if he "planned for it". (usually that'll calm down rule-twisters).
Houseruling such stuff usually opens a can of worms you'd best be prepared to deal with: where do you draw the line, why this, but not that?
Ah, I'm not worried about him breaking the game because he's our usual GM and he hates broken characters. He also usually only wants to do standard things within the rules, but just liked the sound of Bone Armour and wanted it to look unique, so I'm fine with that.
He literally only wants that one ability from the Oracle, no curses, no spells or anything like that, so I think that's acceptable and if the other players find out and get annoyed with it, they can have an extra trait to start with if they want.
Cherry picking isn't an issue thankfully and I do know quite a few of the rules from trying to break characters myself within the house rules. :p
just liked the sound of Bone Armour and wanted it to look unique, so I'm fine with that
Just rewrite Mage armor to look like bones... less trouble and easier to deal with. ;-)
The other players won't be able to complain, too.
Ah, I'm not worried about him breaking the game because he's our usual GM and he hates broken characters. He also usually only wants to do standard things within the rules, but just liked the sound of Bone Armour and wanted it to look unique, so I'm fine with that.
He literally only wants that one ability from the Oracle, no curses, no spells or anything like that, so I think that's acceptable and if the other players find out and get annoyed with it, they can have an extra trait to start with if they want.
Cherry picking isn't an issue thankfully and I do know quite a few of the rules from trying to break characters myself within the house rules. :p
I do not see why he would need a scaling armor of bones, mage armor can work fine as is with some fluff. Other than that I'd say that one of the prime drawbacks of a witch is the lack of defensive spells and abilities, a single feat does not seem to cover the benefit it grants, I'd probably make a feat chain much like 'Eldritch Heritage'. Probably requiring skill focus knowledge religion in this case and allowing a single revelation as an oracle level -2 at lvl 3, 11 and at 17 without level penalty, along with the required charisma score, meaning he probably has to reduce intelligence a bit too.
To dovetail on what others have pointed out, has he explained why re-flavoring Mage Armor isn't sufficient?
Anyway, here's a homebrew feat that I don't believe is broken:
Fully Revealed Path
Prerequisites: Cha 13 and Mystery class feature
Benefit: Choose a single Revelation you have gained from your Mystery. Your class level is considered to be your character level when determining the effects of that Revelation only.
I wouldn't do it. If he wants to be an oracle and have their abilities then be a multi-class witch/oracle,
There's a reason they haven't developed a Woracle, or an Oritch.
Tell him if he's un-happy with being a Witch, he can play an Oracle. All of this ability theft (things like Eldritch Heritage) just waters down the real rp-value of the classes. PF developed the hordes of archetypes purely for this reason.
If it is truly about flavour, dipping in Oracle is unnecessary, he can just buy armor made of bone. There's no need to hand him another classes ability simply to obtain the fluff.
Give him a "Bone Armor" spell with the same stats as Mage Armor but the Necromancy school, if he's not too keen on just reflavoring.
A very good, balanced suggestion.
If he seems sour after this, you know for sure someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes...
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I'll be running Rise of the Runelords soon and a player has asked if he can have the Bone Revelation with a dip into Oracle that scales with him, when his base Class is a Witch.
A Witch uses Intelligence and an Oracle uses Charisma, but his stats are focused entirely on Intelligence.
** spoiler omitted **
Now, I was thinking if I got him to focus a little on Charisma, I would let him count his Oracle levels as Witch levels for determining his Revelation Power (Armour of Bones), but I don't want to make things unfair on the other players, so what's the best way I can go about this?
If I said he could use the Oracle Powers with his Intelligence instead of Charisma, would that be fine?
Should I allow him to use the Armour of Bones as one of his Hex's instead, so he doesn't have to go one level Oracle? It would probably be the easiest way to do this as all he'd be doing is spending a Hex on it, could use it with his Intelligence and stay as a Witch throughout.
I want to do this in a way where it won't be broken (doesn't seem like it's game breaking at all tbh, but his Witch raises the dead, so thematically the Bone Revelation fits), but will be fair and balanced out.
I don't usually GM, which is why I'm asking for advice on the best way I can do this.
We;ll be starting next Tuesday.
Thanks very much. :)
I would not let him have it. If he does he should have to take a feat similar to the Eldritch Bloodline feats just as if he was trying to get something from a sorcerer's bloodline.
Have him take something like skill focus as a prereq also before he takes the custom feat that gets him the revelation. <---my 2 cents.
Flavor should never be a reason to empower a character or take away from a character. By having him take the feats he would be paying for the rules exception .