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Advanced Race Guide races differ from those in Bestiaries?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Last I heard, the developers were saying that, aside from new content, the various races from the Bestiary weren't going to have their basic stats changed from those found in the Bestiaries.

My friend (who just got his hands on the PDF) just called me to excitedly tell me that the Vanara now have a climb speed of 30 feet rather than the Bestiaries listing of 20 feet. (Guess which race he happens to be playing right now.)

What gives? Is this a typo or did they change their minds and make other changes as well? I can't stand contradictory sources.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Humans now get TWO bonus feats!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Note that the changeling now explicitly has 2 claw attacks. In the Haunting of Harrowstone, the racial writeup listed just one claw attack, however the example character, the fluff, and the image all pointed toward two claw attacks. I assume that much like the single-claw for the changeling, the 20' land speed was in error in the bestiary.


Cheapy wrote:
Humans now get TWO bonus feats!

Is that true? I mean the bonus feat and the +2 bonus on the abilility you want are the things that make humans one of the best classes to play (at least from my point of view).

Two bonus feats is just too much to me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rasief wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Humans now get TWO bonus feats!

Is that true? I mean the bonus feat and the +2 bonus on the abilility you want are the things that make humans one of the best classes to play (at least from my point of view).

Two bonus feats is just too much to me.

No.

Grand Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:

Last I heard, the developers were saying that, aside from new content, the various races from the Bestiary weren't going to have their basic stats changed from those found in the Bestiaries.

My friend (who just got his hands on the PDF) just called me to excitedly tell me that the Vanara now have a climb speed of 30 feet rather than the Bestiaries listing of 20 feet. (Guess which race he happens to be playing right now.)

What gives? Is this a typo or did they change their minds and make other changes as well? I can't stand contradictory sources.

All joking aside, this is something that interests me, too (I know, surprise surprise). Were there any other races that seemed to show contradictions to their previous incarnations?

Paizo Employee Webstore Gninja Minion

Removed a post (and its replies). Don't dogpile on another poster, thanks.


Rasief wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Humans now get TWO bonus feats!

Is that true? I mean the bonus feat and the +2 bonus on the abilility you want are the things that make humans one of the best classes to play (at least from my point of view).

Two bonus feats is just too much to me.

Considering most other core races get bonuses that are better than a single bonus feat, nope.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Actually. I just found out that humans now have an alternate racial trait which gives them THREE bonus feats!

But they all have to be Skill Focus (one each at 1st, 8th, and 16th level).

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The change to the Vanara's climb speed was an error... As far as I know, there were no deliberate changes made to the baseline races in this book (beyond some clarification stuff, such as the claw attack for changelings), as such changes are beyond the intent of the book to merely provide a wealth of new options for existing zero HD races and NOT to re-engineer them.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks for the clarification, James!


So what's up with the 2 Human Bonus Feats then?
I don't think that was an error in the Core Rules.
Perhaps that is for playing 'jacked up' Humans to balance when 'high value' races are used?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Once again, it wasn't serious. Humans only have one bonus feat, although, as RD points out, there is a racial trait to give them 3 skill focuses instead of that one bonus feat.

Kinda weird, IMO.


Skill Focus is much less useful than bonus <pick any you met prerequisites> feat. Of course even single Skill Focus is very useful for any seriously skill-oriented characters but how many PCs are actually build that way? Half? One-quarter? I think that less, because there are more ways to boost skill bonus than getting a feat you need for any mildly feat based specialty.

I agree that giving three Skill Focuses spread between levels for a price of one feat seems to be much at first, but this is only eyeballing the initial information about that trait.


Focused Study: All humans are skillful, but some,
rather than being generalists, tend to specialize in a
handful of skills. At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, such humans
gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat.
This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.

That is lame. And broke I give a feat of any thing to get 3 from a list. Dose not sound even remotely even trade.

And it makes 1/2 elf even more broken cause any thing a human can do a 1/2 elf can do as well. So all 1/2 elf now get 3 Skill Focus for free not just one. Come on is take high fantasy to new level.
or 1/2 orc...

Flag, Flag, Flag on the play!

I mean so of the cooles buids use
Eldritch Heritage Cha 13, Skill Focus in bloodline skill, character level 3rd Gain a bloodline power

Improved Eldritch Heritage Cha 15, Eldritch Heritage, character level 11th Gain an additional bloodline power

Greater Eldritch Heritage Cha 17, Eldritch Heritage, Improved Eldritch Heritage, character level 17th Gain a higher-level sorcerer bloodline power

And now you do not have to feat tax to do so.

Is there that many people that think skill PC do not matter that is not big deal.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Tom, does the delay in two of those skill focus feats till 8th and 16th level ameliorate the imbalance in your eyes? Or do you routinely start play at 16th level?


Tom S 820 wrote:

Focused Study: All humans are skillful, but some,

rather than being generalists, tend to specialize in a
handful of skills. At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, such humans
gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat.
This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.

That is lame. And broke I give a feat of any thing to get 3 from a list. Dose not sound even remotely even trade.

And it makes 1/2 elf even more broken cause any thing a human can do a 1/2 elf can do as well. So all 1/2 elf now get 3 Skill Focus for free not just one. Come on is take high fantasy to new level.
or 1/2 orc...

Unless ARG changed something there, neither half-elves or half-orcs have bonus feat trait that they could replace with Focused Study so, judging only by description you provided, they can't take Focused Study.

Quote:

I mean so of the cooles buids use

Eldritch Heritage Cha 13, Skill Focus in bloodline skill, character level 3rd Gain a bloodline power

Improved Eldritch Heritage Cha 15, Eldritch Heritage, character level 11th Gain an additional bloodline power

Greater Eldritch Heritage Cha 17, Eldritch Heritage, Improved Eldritch Heritage, character level 17th Gain a higher-level sorcerer bloodline power

And now you do not have to feat tax to do so.

Is there that many people that think skill PC do not matter that is not big deal.

Half-elves and humans can already get Skill Focus at first level and get those chains quickly. You still have to pay feat tax for them because you have to select specific Skill Focus instead of using it on something else you could want to take. With Focused Study you will get two more Skill Focus feats as a human making it more worthwhile. It all depends upon what alternatives half-elves get to be deemed overpowered or not.


Chris Mortika wrote:
Tom, does the delay in two of those skill focus feats till 8th and 16th level ameliorate the imbalance in your eyes? Or do you routinely start play at 16th level?

No I do not start at level 16. I start level 2 and play till level

18- 20.

But if compare Dwarf Rouge level 16 to Human rouge 16 who is better?
The human by minimum +6 on skills. Really it is more same dwarf has to spend 3 feat to catch up. While the human can spend 2 more feat to +2/+2 to of the skills and +2 to the third. And with pathfinder 10 rank double rule means that is +2 more. Or it mean that human is more versatile skill wise than any one else.

Base line Idea of the game feat is a feat ie all feat are equal.
Do you want 1 dollar now. Or 3 dollars? 3 is greater that one simple math.

Look at like this base line PC get 10 feat per 20 levels. Human got 1 more to make them flexible and playable vs the non humans. Now there get 13 vs dwarf with 10.

Would you let elf get Weapon Focus long bow for free level 1 and Weapon Focus Long sword level 8th and Weapon Focus Eleven Curve Blade at 16th.

If the human had to take skill focus at level on and give up there extra skill point at each level. Sure 20 skill point of versatile to 18 point ahead curve that seems even.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

At level 16, I'd much rather have the +2 to most saving throws, thankyouverymuch.


Tom S 820 wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Tom, does the delay in two of those skill focus feats till 8th and 16th level ameliorate the imbalance in your eyes? Or do you routinely start play at 16th level?

No I do not start at level 16. I start level 2 and play till level

18- 20.

But if compare Dwarf Rouge level 16 to Human rouge 16 who is better?
The human by minimum +6 on skills. Really it is more same dwarf has to spend 3 feat to catch up. While the human can spend 2 more feat to +2/+2 to of the skills and +2 to the third. And with pathfinder 10 rank double rule means that is +2 more. Or it mean that human is more versatile skill wise than any one else.

Base line Idea of the game feat is a feat ie all feat are equal.
Do you want 1 dollar now. Or 3 dollars? 3 is greater that one simple math.

Look at like this base line PC get 10 feat per 20 levels. Human got 1 more to make them flexible and playable vs the non humans. Now there get 13 vs dwarf with 10.

Would you let elf get Weapon Focus long bow for free level 1 and Weapon Focus Long sword level 8th and Weapon Focus Eleven Curve Blade at 16th.

If the human had to take skill focus at level on and give up there extra skill point at each level. Sure 20 skill point of versatile to 18 point ahead curve that seems even.

It sounds to me that for any build that wants skill focus at 1st level, it's a great choice, and for any build that doesn't, it's a useless one. Which is exactly the same as every other racial substitution. For example, the Eye for Talent racial substitution is decent for any human who has a pet/minion, and useless for everyone else.

If the concern is stepping on the half-elf's toes, humans could already do that by spending their free feat on Skill Focus. And even then, half-elves still would have an advantage because they could swap their skill focus for a proficiency feat that normally requires BAB +1, even if their starting BAB is +0.

Overall, it seems reasonably balanced to me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Drejk wrote:
Skill Focus is much less useful than bonus <pick any you met prerequisites> feat. Of course even single Skill Focus is very useful for any seriously skill-oriented characters but how many PCs are actually build that way? Half? One-quarter?

When I loaded up all of my old human characters to see which ones had taken skill focus in the past (and thus could now switch it out for two or three skill focuses) I found that about half of them benefited from the new rule. Many of them who had spent one or more general feats on Skill Focus, now got Skill Focus for free and were able to take other, more suitable general feats instead while also maintaining their character concept.

For me it was a direct power increase.


1 for 3 is not balenced it greater by 2. Simple. Base line idea is all feat are equal. Now you saying some not as good as others that only 1/3 feat. What this swap also skill focus is worth less that trait. So I should be abe to swap any feat for 3 skill focus feat.

All AP are priced the same so can get old one for 3 for price of 1.
NO this dose not make sense.

Eye for Talent racial substitution is that same as alertness or any of +2/+2 feat. Just +2 goes to stat for pet/follower ect. It should most likey be clean up to say it can only be applyed to one not all. It would not be fair to 4 different one if made build, with Wizard/duird /sommer/ with leadership. That would be broke as well.


Makes a human beast bonded witch/fighter with a homuculous quite the beast, with his super HP, super stealh/ bluff/ etc beast just lurking around, haha. That familair can be flowing with feats, haha. Let alone splashing levels of classes that give feats lvl 1.

Qadira

the statement that "Base line idea is all feat are equal." is just not true.

The feat that removes the penility for fireing a crossbow when prone (realizing that there IS NO penility for fireing a crossbow when prone) is not equeal to Point Blank Shot.


Tom S 820 wrote:

1 for 3 is not balenced it greater by 2. Simple. Base line idea is all feat are equal. Now you saying some not as good as others that only 1/3 feat. What this swap also skill focus is worth less that trait. So I should be abe to swap any feat for 3 skill focus feat.

All AP are priced the same so can get old one for 3 for price of 1.
NO this dose not make sense.

Eye for Talent racial substitution is that same as alertness or any of +2/+2 feat. Just +2 goes to stat for pet/follower ect. It should most likey be clean up to say it can only be applyed to one not all. It would not be fair to 4 different one if made build, with Wizard/duird /sommer/ with leadership. That would be broke as well.

I think you need to define what you're comparing it to when you decide whether it's balanced.

Are you comparing the human's normal 1 feat with the alternate set of 3 feats? In that scenario, the set of three should be better, for characters that want skills. If a substitution isn't better than the original for someone, then no one will ever choose it. For instance, consider a theoretical substitution: "You gain Endurance as a bonus feat. Thus racial trait replaces the bonus feat racial trait and skilled." No one would ever take this. They could just use their bonus feat to take Endurance, and not lose the skill points. What if it just replaced the bonus feat and left skilled alone? It still wouldn't be taken, because it's still useless.

A substitution has to be at least marginally better than what it's replacing, or it won't get used. So a replacement which gives you two bonus Skill Focus feats many levels down the line is better than a single feat of your choice, but only when you want skill focus in the first place, which many characters don't.

Are you comparing 1 feat (regardless of what it is) to 3 feats (regardless of what they are)? That's just silly. I'd much rather have a relevant Weapon Focus than Prone Shooter, Death from Above, and Field Repair.

Are you comparing what the human can get (3 skill focus feats) to what a half-elf can get (1 skill focus feat)? Humans have always been more skill focused than half-elves. They've been able to take Skill Focus to match the half elf all along, plus they get the bonus skill point each level.


nosig wrote:

the statement that "Base line idea is all feat are equal." is just not true.

The feat that removes the penility for fireing a crossbow when prone (realizing that there IS NO penility for fireing a crossbow when prone) is not equeal to Point Blank Shot.

As in the impact they have one the game.

Some feats give little bonus all the time
Some feats give meduim bonus most of the time
Some feat give big bonus small part of the time

small bonus ALL THE TIME
Medium Bonus Most Of The Time
BIG BONUS small part of time

It sliding scale of how big of bonus vs how offten you can use it.

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