Our group is lvl 9 and we have a straight fighter who uses a bow. In most circumstances he so far outdamamges everyone else over the course of a combat I wanted to run it by everyone here and just verify the mechanics. I don't thin it's really complex but I am looking for some assurance we are "doing it right"
Feats: Weapon Focus (+1 hit), Weapon Spec (+2 dam), Point Blank, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Deadly Aim (-3, +6)
Hit
BAB +9/+4
Dex +4
Weapon Focus +1
+1 Bow
Weapon Training 2 (bows) +2
(Point Blank, situational)
to Hit +17/+12
Damage
Weapon Spec +2
Weapon training 2 +2
Deadly Aim +6 (-3 hit)
+1 Composite Bow (allows 14 str) +3
(Point Blank, situational)
to Damage: 13
Base with all mods (including Deadly Aim):
+14 hit/+13 Dam
Assuming the figther is taking a full round action and is not in point blank:
First Attack using Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Deadly Aim:
+12/+13 (-5 Rapid,Deadly)
+12/+13 (-5 Rapid,Deadly) - Rapid Shot Arrow
+12/+13 (-5 Rapid,Deadly) - Many Shot Arrow
Second Attack using Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Deadly Aim:
+7/+13 (-10 Iterative Attack,Rapid, Deadly)
If all 4 hit that is 52 + 4d8 daamage (the bow is 'shocking' also but I did not include that.
Does that look correct? Only realy specific question is the second shot from Many Shot does not allow "precison" damage. I cannot find anything that says Deadly Aim is Precision damage so that is being allowed.
Deadly Aim isn't precision damage. That's reserved for sneak attack and some rare feats like Precise Strike.
The shocking enchantment can be thought of adding 3.5 damage to each hit. That's the average of d6.
While I haven't checked the math, the archer is a very powerful character. They can easily outdamage almost anyone else since they can always full attack, and they get so many arrows a round.
First Attack using Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Deadly Aim:+12/+13 (-5 Rapid,Deadly)
+12/+13 (-5 Rapid,Deadly) - Rapid Shot Arrow
+12/+13 (-5 Rapid,Deadly) - Many Shot ArrowSecond Attack using Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Deadly Aim:
+7/+13 (-10 Iterative Attack,Rapid, Deadly)
You might just be writing this out strangely.
His first attack is one attack roll. He rolls a d20, and adds 12 to that total. (Attack roll: BAB+9, DEX+4, WF+1, WT+2, ENH+1, DA-3, RS-2)
If that attack roll beats the targets AC (factoring in distance, soft cover, etc.) then he hits with two arrows.
Assuming it's a medium longbow, that's two arrows each dealing 1d8+13 piercing damage and 1d6 electricity damage.
His next attack is either his second iterative attack from high BAB, or the extra attack from Rapid Shot. Lets do Rapid Shot next.
He rolls a d20, adds 12 to that total. If it hits, he deals 1d8+13 piercing damage and 1d6 electricity damage.
Now his iterative attack: d20 and add 7 to the total. (attack roll as above, except BAB is +4, not +9) If it hits, 1d8+13 piercing damage and 1d6 electricity damage.
That means if all three attack rolls hit, then four arrows land on the target, dealing a total of 4d8+52 piercing damage and 4d6 electricity damage. (assuming the target has no DR or resistance or whatever)
Deadly Aim isn't precision damage. That's reserved for sneak attack and some rare feats like Precise Strike.
The shocking enchantment can be thought of adding 3.5 damage to each hit. That's the average of d6.
While I haven't checked the math, the archer is a very powerful character. They can easily outdamage almost anyone else since they can always full attack, and they get so many arrows a round.
What Cheapy said - a 9th level archer fighter can and will deliver massive amounts of damage on a regular basis.
You don't have to roll for the Manyshot arrow. Manyshot works like this: if you take a full attack, and your first attack roll is a hit, you hit with two arrows and roll damage twice. However, you can apply precision damage (like sneak attack) to only one of these rolls.
To my understanding, you don't actually make an attack roll for the manyshot arrow. It's attack roll comes from the first arrow. "If the first attack hits, both arrows hit."
So he is only making three attack rolls +12/+12/+7, but if that first roll hits, he basically does double damage. Assuming a wizard in the party (pretty standard), I assume he'd be getting hasted relatively often.
Assuming an average CR 9 critter (AC 23), the archer is dealing 36.22 DPR on a full attack. If he's in PBS range, that number goes to almost 43.
Since that average critter has 115 hp, the archer kills it in 3 or 4 rounds by himself, which seems perfectly in line with how combat ought to go.
Wait, he has 14 strength, but a composite +3 longbow?
Wait, he has 14 strength, but a composite +3 longbow?
I think the +3 is the bow enchantment. the bow str modifier is +1.
In the to-hit section, it said +1 bow.
He doesn't have Precise Shot or Improved Precise Shot? Make sure you're accurately applying the -4 penalty on attacks against any opponent engaged in melee and the +4 AC bonus from soft cover if any creature is between the archer and his target.
In the to-hit section, it said +1 bow.
Hrm.. true. in the damage section though, he has +3 as the net for the bow, so it must be a +2 bow with a +1 enchant.
Weapon Spec +2
Weapon training 2 +2
Deadly Aim +6 (-3 hit)
+1 Composite Bow (allows 14 str) +3
(Point Blank, situational)
to Damage: 13
Quick Clarification sorry...
The bow has a +1 Magical Enhancement but is built to allow up to a +2 strength bonus to damamge. It's a home game and I have no idea of that's RAW or not but it is what the GM allows. The magic enhancement of the bow is seperate from the amount of strength damage allowed. With the corect materials and enough skill you can craft a non-magic bow that allows up to +4 stregth damamge I guess based on how they are playing it.
He does have Percise shot, I just did not include it. It was confusing enough without adding more feats.
Just to clarify the soft cover +4 AC is a one time penality regardless of the number of creatures correct? (Within reason)
Quick Clarification sorry...
The bow has a +1 Magical Enhancement but is built to allow up to a +2 strength bonus to damamge. It's a home game and I have no idea of that's RAW or not but it is what the GM allows. The magic enhancement of the bow is seperate from the amount of strength damage allowed. With the corect materials and enough skill you can craft a non-magic bow that allows up to +4 stregth damamge I guess based on how they are playing it.
He does have Percise shot, I just did not include it. It was confusing enough without adding more feats.
Just to clarify the soft cover +4 AC is a one time penality regardless of the number of creatures correct? (Within reason)
Correct. The soft cover bonus only applies once.
Also, composite bows can have any strength rating you want without ever being magical.
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I house-ruled Manyshot to add a second die of damage (but no bonuses of any kind) in order to nerf a fighter-archer that was utterly dominating my Rise of the Runelords campaign.
As is, Manyshot adds 1d8+x, where x is whatever you can stack on except sneak attack. That's stupid. Utterly, indefensibly stupid for one feat. Getting to add an extra 1d8 on one attack during a full attack action, on the other hand, is on par with Vital Strike.
Also, archers dominate when they're allowed to stand around in back, free of danger, making full attack actions. Don't give them that charity.
The archer is not dominating as a result of GM stupidity. The group has just figured out he is our guided missile so we do everything we can to keep him free. We have a couple of melee fighters and a Barb to run interference so getting to him is often not trivial.
Granted, it's powerful feat. I would like to see an additional -2 to all attacks, similar to Rapid Shot. Maybe a higher BAB to take the feat, like +8 would make it easier to swallow. That makes sense to me, but we are trying to stick as close to the book as we can.
The archer just feels really "over the top" even compared to our 2 hand fighter, mostly because he can get away with only rarely moving in many fights.
Well, the mechanics look correct.
Note that there are ways to deal with archery -- smoke, darkness, or other forms of concealment provide miss chances and/or block line of sight, several low-level spells (wind wall, fickle winds) do bad things to archery, people who get close to him canary disarming him or sundering his bow -- or cutting the bowstring,which should be even easier.
Also, if he has LOS to them, they have LOS to him, for the most part. An enemy archer can be an archers worst nightmare. An enemy archer behind a narrow arrowslit with a +8 cover bonus is a nightmare.
Smart enemies will know about the archer and be somewhat prepared for him. E.g., resist energy if it's well known he has a lightning bow.
Let him shoot down some enemies. Don't let him shoot down all of them. Some of them will take countermeasures.
An archer build usually isn't prepared for, for instance, grappling enemies. Earth elementals coming out of the ground, air elementals scooping him up in vortex form, devils teleporting next tohimcanprovokes using their fear aura, anything that uses a dominate spell to make him attack his fellow party members....
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I found in a recent campaign that we were not applying all of the appropriate negatives to hit for a an archer. For example, if you do not have a clear line to your target your opponent gains partial or soft cover bonus to their AC (this includes things like walls especially corners, allies, enemies, stacks of boxes, etc.). I found that by appropriately applying this -4 in most circumstances it caused our ranger to be more tactical with positioning and cut down his dpr to a more comparable, but still superior, level.
Both the Deflect Arrows and Missile Shield feats completely shut down Manyshot, and DR can wreak havoc on an archer without Clustered Shots.
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Both the Deflect Arrows and Missile Shield feats completely shut down Manyshot, and DR can wreak havoc on an archer without Clustered Shots.
It is much cheaper and easier for an archer to have the appropriate arrow types to bypass DR than a melee character. Anyone who has played a ranged damage dealer in our games has a quiver full of silvered, cold-iron, adamantine, piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning arrows.
Remember, too, that by 9th level, an archer with manyshot and rapid shot is using 4 arrows per round, 5 if hasted - normally, I don't bother with low-gold resource management by 9th level or so, but it's worth doing in the case of archers! Even an Efficient Quiver only holds 60 arrows - about 15 rounds worth - which can be an issue far from town and so on (granted, the are mending spells, but still!)
Also, a clever enemy spellcaster can shut down the archer for a few rounds with a targeted dispel magic on that efficient quiver :)
Others have mentioned the value of obscuring mist and other LOS-blocking magic, as well as casting "blind" on the archer (archers often pump strength and dex but ignore constitution a bit because they are "safe"), or glitterdust (attack that will save!).
It's worth mentioning too that bows are *wooden*, and quite easy to sunder.
I will say, though, that if the rest of the party is supporting and protecting the archer, then (i) that's good tactics, so good on them! and (ii) in supporting the archer they *are* diverting some resources from damage-dealing (I imagine they're holding actions to intercept charges and so on), so he may not be as "unbalancing" as he may appear on the surface.
Good feedback....
I don't think the archer we have is "broken" or anything like that. It just seems a bit much from time to time. It really hit home when the party was hit with a confusion spells and the archer was to "attack nearest target".
Some quick math determined he could easily one round both the cleric and the wizard. This is what really started the whole discussiona and deep level analysis.
The mechanics are the mechanics. On one hand, it's nice to see archers as a real, viable threat. Still not sure if it's to much or not.
I am actually playing a wizard in the group and was one of the potential targets, not the GM.
It is much cheaper and easier for an archer to have the appropriate arrow types to bypass DR than a melee character. Anyone who has played a ranged damage dealer in our games has a quiver full of silvered, cold-iron, adamantine, piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning arrows.
I was more referring to the creatures with alignment-based DR that become increasingly common at CR 9+. Finding an equipment-based solution to that DR is not as inconsequential as material-based DR, and can cause problems for archery-based characters that lack Clustered Shots (or something similar).
Good feedback....
I don't think the archer we have is "broken" or anything like that. It just seems a bit much from time to time. It really hit home when the party was hit with a confusion spells and the archer was to "attack nearest target".
Yes, I ran an encounter recently where an advanced succubus dominated the party's 11th level ranger - a ranger with favored enemy (human) and wielding a human-bane bow - in a party of mostly-humans.
Not pretty (well, it was from my perspective as the GM ;))
Lesson: *always* keep the archer under the effects of "protection from evil" (as with raging barbarians and other "I'd hate to fight that guy" PCs...)
in my experience the only thing that makes a ranger or fighter archer even worse is when they go nuts and shoot those full attacks while still being mobile with a mount. As long as the mount moves it's base speed or less you can make a full attack with no minus's at all. Depending on your GM it can actually give the party a confusion buffer. I personally had this experience, one failed will save, a D8 roll coming up attack the nearest creature and the DM saying that horse between your legs...... Even with melee I still killed my animal companion in one full attack. but at least I didn't alpha the heal stick cleric in light armor.
Asta
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