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Dysfunction - I agree that the succubus' ability works when she is grappled, but can you show me where in the ability that it says that a kiss is a manufactured weapon?
(It would have to be a manufactured weapon in order to get the multiple attacks from BAB)
Or in fact, where the ability says that it's an attack at all. My reading of the ability has no mention of an attack roll in the first place.
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Mike, did your group do some investigating before the show down?
Heh, not remotely. They killed the gargoyle surprisingly quickly but the fight with the cleric was a long and drawn out one...so they actually thought that since neither got away that they "got the drop on" the BBEGs so they waltzed down into the sanctuary looking to do some sort of anti-ritual...totally weren't expecting a fight.
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Again, I never said she drains levels with her claw attacks. I said her 9 BAB gives her two attacks while being grappled.
Then I apologize for misreading your quote. It read to me as though you were indicating 2 claw attacks.
if she is grappled, she has the option to attack her grappler for as many attacks as her BAB will allow, with a -2 to each attack.
this is fact. not a grey area.
Agreed. But attacking twice with the kiss in the same round seems incorrect to me, as a high BAB has no bearing on making multiple attacks with a natural weapon, which the kiss surely is.
so, to do the math:
each kiss bestows only 1 negative level.
if she kisses twice, she will bestow 2 negative levels.
if she kisses three times, she will bestow 3 negative levels.
Once again, agreed. I believe those three kisses would occur over the course of three rounds, however.
just to clarify, are you stating that if an opponent grapples her, she is completely unable to use her energy drain attack?
Not at all, as she must be grappling to use that ability.
EDIT: Or simply what James said above. :p
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@James - two different places state its an attack:
1. Special Attacks: energy drain
2. Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent’s
vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or
ranged attack hits.
To take a step back, what would this forum consider the type of action needed for a succubus's energy drain?
1. is it considered one of the actions that can take place during a grapple? such as move, pin, tie up, damage
if it is, these types of actions only occur the next round after a grapple is initiated and maintained
2. is it considered a standard action all by itself (as is typical with an undeclared Supernatural attack)?
but then, how would the succubus ever be able to successfully initiate this ability if grappling and maintaining a grapple is a standard action in and of itself?
3. is it a special attack, similar to rake, but unlike rake requires no attack roll, and is automatically applied when specialized conditions are met (the grapple)?
4. or is it a free action that the succubus can only take once she uses a standard action to grapple her target?
which if she is already grappling, she energy drains freely, then can take a full round action
5. or is it a variant of a grapple maneuver?
would swift grapple or the master maneuver variant - both allow multiple grapple maneuver checks in a round - allow the succubus to make multiple energy drain attacks?
what are your thoughts?
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my stuff.There is a huge difference between reading somethign grey and adding things into the reading.
If you want to say the bab gives extra attacks why not just say both of the claws get extra attacks that all and energy drain with vampiric ttouch and sneak attack. Then each touch attack gives a suggestion as well? The rules are clear. One kiss one enegry drain. Then this kiss gives a very speicific suggestion. Not one the Dm can change without cheating.
GMs that cheat wreck the game worse than PCs that do. Life is too short to deal with the frustration of someone that cheats.
This scenario can easily be run without cheating. It is challenging enough.
With the above rant, how would you handle a Wight's attack of opportunity?
scenario:
round 1
Wight: attacks a PC and drains a level
PC: tries to run away, provoking an Attack of Opportunity.
Same Round, Same Wight: takes the attack of opportunity and drains another level.2 levels in 1 round, are you suggesting that would be "cheating" too?
Actually, yes, I would. You do NOT get an Attack of Opportunity on anyone doing the Withdraw action in the first square from which they withdraw. The second you claim that the wight gets an AoO against someone withdrawing, who is able to get out of the wight's threatened area on the first square of movement, you are cheating.
Note Bene: Avelexi has a specific set of tactics, which, in PFS, should be followed unless the PCs do something to invalidate the tactics.
Also note: There are a ton of things that can bypass or eliminate her DR, including both bless weapon, which the pregen Paladin has a wand of, IIRC; and the Paldin's Smite ability....
Also, if you have her keep going ethereal, like you "advise", don't expect the PCs to stay around. Expect them to get caught by her the first time, but that her "ally" will have been dealt with by then, since he is not going to last three rounds unsupported.
And, for the second time, expect her to catch a crapload of Readied attacks with blessed weapons.
ALso, please note that the kiss is not a weapon attack, but a natural attack, and therefore does not get the benefit of iteratives from high BAB, so only once per round, at best.
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my stuff.Finnlanderboy's stuffmore of my stuff
2 levels in 1 round, are you suggesting that would be "cheating" too?
Actually, yes, I would. You do NOT get an Attack of Opportunity on anyone doing the Withdraw action in the first square from which they withdraw. The second you claim that the wight gets an AoO against someone withdrawing, who is able to get out of the wight's threatened area on the first square of movement, you are cheating.
Note Bene: Avelexi has a specific set of tactics, which, in PFS, should be followed unless the PCs do something to invalidate the tactics.
Also note: There are a ton of things that can bypass or eliminate her DR, including both bless weapon, which the pregen Paladin has a wand of, IIRC; and the Paldin's Smite ability....
Also, if you have her keep going ethereal, like you "advise", don't expect the PCs to stay around. Expect them to get caught by her the first time, but that her "ally" will have been dealt with by then, since he is not going to last...
I never said anything about the PC withdrawing.
to keep it easy, I said the PC ran, causing an AOO, end of simple example.which means the example situation question still stands:
If the Wight in the scenario, that doesn't have any specific tactics listed, gets an AOO and drains 2 levels in a round, is that cheating?
the answer is, no. it wouldn't be cheating to drain 2 levels in 1 round.
so, why, if the succubus is already in a grapple, drains the monk's level and suggests the PC kisses her again (which is also in her tactical write up), enabling her to drain another level, would that be considered cheating?
Please note to other reader's note, that all of these additional actions are based on activities that the NPCs would do in conjunction with their listed tactics.
Avelexi is said to use vampiric touch (pg 9), but not how. I stated that she could use vital strike, death attack, and vampiric touch all together - which still follows her tactics.
The Scarlet sun is said to attack the PCs(pg 7). I stated he could do a tactic that is already described in his description, only towards the PCs. Swooping in, picking them up, then dropping them - which is still following his tactics.
The perspective of my post, is that these NPCs have abilities and intelligence that should be used in conjunction with each other.
If a GM is playing the monsters that are in this scenario as listed for each monster and playing them correctly, there should be a TPK.
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@James - two different places state its an attack:
1. Special Attacks: energy drain2. Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent’s
vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or
ranged attack hits.To take a step back, what would this forum consider the type of action needed for a succubus's energy drain?
1. is it considered one of the actions that can take place during a grapple? such as move, pin, tie up, damage
if it is, these types of actions only occur the next round after a grapple is initiated and maintained2. is it considered a standard action all by itself (as is typical with an undeclared Supernatural attack)?
but then, how would the succubus ever be able to successfully initiate this ability if grappling and maintaining a grapple is a standard action in and of itself?3. is it a special attack, similar to rake, but unlike rake requires no attack roll, and is automatically applied when specialized conditions are met (the grapple)?
4. or is it a free action that the succubus can only take once she uses a standard action to grapple her target?
which if she is already grappling, she energy drains freely, then can take a full round action5. or is it a variant of a grapple maneuver?
would swift grapple or the master maneuver variant - both allow multiple grapple maneuver checks in a round - allow the succubus to make multiple energy drain attacks?what are your thoughts?
First on the definitions - #1 means that it definitely isn't a manufactured weapon attack since if it was, it would show up under mêlée as well.
The reason for the text in #2 is because energy drain on every other creature is modifying an attack, so "this attack" refers to the attack it is modifying.As for what action it should be - the modifications to the succubus' energy drain ability don't mention anything about actually modifying how a grapple works, just that it triggers off being grappled, so #1 & #5 are out. So we're left with #2, #3, and #4. (And #3 and #4 are really the same thing.)
Between those two options, it's really a GM call as to what is RAI. I would personally back up a GM who did either of those two things. Note that #2 is still possible since a succubus is still grappled at the start of her turn if she succeeded at her grapple check. (Basically #2 says that the succubus has replaced the CMB check to maintain the grapple with energy drain and a will save.)
Actually, now that I've typed that out, I really like #2 as an interpretation. I think that's how I'll run succumb from now on until I hear otherwise.
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Actually, now that I've typed that out, I really like #2 as an interpretation. I think that's how I'll run succumb from now on until I hear otherwise.
Can I ask for a little more clarification on your statement:
1. Does that mean it will take additional actions for the Succubus to energy drain - meaning it would take multiple rounds for her to perform an energy drain?
2. Maintaining a grapple is a standard action itself, could you provide a quick round by round mechanics write up of how you would envision this going?