Yes it's me again and I would like those of you who (like me) are disappointed by the standard metamagic rules and feats to sit together and find a new and more interesting way to deal with it.
As of right now, I have several ideas, but none is solid.
But to begin with, I don't like the idea of limited "free" uses per day OR the standard rules of needing higher slots.
One way or the other, many feats need to be rechecked and maybe even replaced/scrapped, but we'll see to that later (after finding a good mechanic):
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IDEA 1:
Use an additional slot equal to the metamagic increase or the level of the spell (whatever is lower).
IDEA 2:
Metamagic is always spontaneously applied and requires a Spellcraft check (DC dependent on the spell + MM-adjustment).
No additional power required, but a failed check loses the whole spell.
IDEA 3:
You can apply any metamagic feat FOR FREE on any spell with "Spell level + MM-adjustment" is equal or below your maximum spell level.
(So 1st level mage with still spell can prepare all 0 level spells as still)
Arcane Spell Failure needs rethinking though.
Idea 1:Two lower spells do not equal a higher level spell.
What you can do is treat them like the spell-like versions of the same feats. Just say you can use them 3/day if you take the feat without any level adjustment. That is what the metamagic rods do also.
Okay. How about this:
Every caster gains a number of "metamagic points" per day equal to his caster level (maybe plus some bonus).
Every metamagic feat consts a number of those MM points equal to its MM-adjustment to use.
And metamagic is spontaneous for every caster (without time increase).
Too powerful?
But is the basic concept something to work with?
Idea 1:Two lower spells do not equal a higher level spell.
Absolutely agree.
What you can do is treat them like the spell-like versions of the same feats. Just say you can use them 3/day if you take the feat without any level adjustment. That is what the metamagic rods do also.
Seems a bit dangerous. Obviously the feats would need to have some additional requirements slapped on (no way I'd allow someone to quicken spell 3/day for free at 1st level). Also keep in mind that something like this would be saving resources in the form of high level spells and allow you to apply matamagic to spells that normally couldn't be increased (like a 9th level spell quickened with a rod). It would also mean that metamagic rods just give you the metamagic feat associated with it, but with a level cap, making them less unique.
There's potential, but we'd need to make it a bit less appealing.
I think we should probably discuss what metamagic feats should not do or specify what they should do before we get ahead of ourselves.
Right now, metamagic feats let you improve a lower level spell at the expense of a higher level one. Ok, pretty straight forward. IMO, you shouldn't be able to use these on more powerful spells without a significant drawback, mages are already the most powerful, and versatile, class in the game, they don't need any boosts.
What I'd personally like to see are metamagic feats that have a spell level increase of zero, such as something that you can apply to ray spells that functions like Precise Shot (effectively allowing you to skip Point Blank Shot).
I think the sudden metamagic feats in 3.5 had prerequisites. I would use those.
Yes, they did, but they also only worked 1/day.
The pool of points isn't a bad way to go, I haven't seen that one specifically applied to meta-magic before. I would probably go with casting attribute bonus.
A wizard with a 22 Intelligence could apply 6 spell levels worth of metamagic during the course of the day. I would still go with the concept that Spell Level + MM modifier can't go over your highest level spell, or maybe they cost double.
You could make a feat to increase the meta-magic pool as well, or reduces the meta-magic cost, either on specific spells, or the meta-magic feats, whatever floats your boat.
That sort of takes away the only reason to play a universalist wizard. I'm hesitant to advocate anything that so thoroughly trumps a base class ability. Except for bonus teamwork feats. I hate teamwork feats.
Yes, they did, but they also only worked 1/day.
I was not suggesting copy them exactly, but they are the base model. Push them up to 3/day, and come up with prerequisites such as ranks in spell craft, caster levels, and so on.
I've got a PDF, currently on sale, that might be helpful. Here's the link for Ars Metamagica. It's sort of like your idea 2.
@ wraithstrike: You don't think that's too good? Giving any caster spontaneous metamagic 3 times per day without adjusting spell level is a heck of a good boost. Besides it takes away the only reason anyone would play a universalist wizard.
I think the only reason the Sudden Metamagic feats from 3.5 were fair was because they were 1/day.
Come to think of it, if you're really dedicated on a times per day metamagic type thing, the universalist's metamagic mastery ability is probably where you want to start. It gives you some idea of how powerful the developers think this concept is.
I kind of like your 2nd idea but would suggest modifying it as follows:
Any metamagic a spell caster knows can be spontaneously applied to any spell upon casting. Doing so requires the spell caster to make a Spellcraft check equal to 15 + twice the spells modified level. If this check fails the spell is lost and has no effect. A Spells modified level cannot be higher then the highest level spell of that type that they can cast.
This allows a spell caster to try and modify a spell of the fly if they need to but also lets them to memorize them with the metamagic feat added to it to prevent any chance of spell failure.
Alternatively, applying metamagic on the fly could simply incur arcane spell failure. Maybe 10% per spell level the the feat would otherwise cause the spell to be increased by (so Still Spell would be 10% while Quicken Spell would be 40%). You pays your money you takes your chances.
@ wraithstrike: You don't think that's too good? Giving any caster spontaneous metamagic 3 times per day without adjusting spell level is a heck of a good boost. Besides it takes away the only reason anyone would play a universalist wizard.
I think the only reason the Sudden Metamagic feats from 3.5 were fair was because they were 1/day.
Come to think of it, if you're really dedicated on a times per day metamagic type thing, the universalist's metamagic mastery ability is probably where you want to start. It gives you some idea of how powerful the developers think this concept is.
Not if everyone can do it, and not if you give them good prereqs, especially since the normal feats won't be around. I can get more than 3 metamagic castings a day now, by taking feats, and using rod. On top of that I can stack traits, and feats to buy the spell adjustment down. It takes resources though which is why I think making sure the player takes enough resources it can work.
Since the rods in the book cost money you can say the feats are required as part of a ritual involving X gold, so many ranks in spellcraft.
For quicken I would probably require 2 or two other metamagic feats.
There is no way I would deal with arcane spell failure. I would rather the GM allow me to use the old version.
I can get more than 3 metamagic castings a day now, by taking feats, and using rod. On top of that I can stack traits, and feats to buy the spell adjustment down.
Every build I've seen that did this was ridiculously powerful, if focused. But what we're talking about now makes it easier to do this, which makes me wary. We've got to beware of how this could be abused.
It takes resources though which is why I think making sure the player takes enough resources it can work.
Agreed, it's all a matter of balancing resources.
Since the rods in the book cost money you can say the feats are required as part of a ritual involving X gold, so many ranks in spellcraft.
I think ranks in spellcraft is a good prereq, but gold doesn't seem right, as that further makes it seem like a metamagic rod.
For quicken I would probably require 2 or two other metamagic feats.
At bare minimum, but I'd probably slap on a 10 ranks in spellcraft prereq as well, and only allow it to work on spells 1 level lower than your highest. Even that feels overpowered.
There is no way I would deal with arcane spell failure. I would rather the GM allow me to use the old version.
Ah, but at what point would you deal with arcane spell failure? If you could apply it to any spell at any time simply by having a chance to lose the spell, I would still keep a Still Spell in my back pocket on the off chance that I become grappled.
You could even offer a feat that would reduce the spell failure chance for a specific metamagic feat by 10% or so. You'd still have to think long and hard about investing in quicken but if every spell you cast has the potential to be cast for free, I'd consider dumping a few feats into it.
Damn.
As I said, I don't want a mechanic that allows only a certain fixed amount of uses per day (such as silent spell 3/day).
It just doesn't make sense.
Metamagic should be a way to let your spells do things they usually don't do, not necessarily make them more powerful...
Changing an energy descriptor is a good metamagic use and shouldn't increase the spell's level.
Changing the effect area from one shape to another is too.
But simply making the spell "blast more", that's not metamagic.
I think the problem is in the spells.
A 3rd level spell that simply gets better and better only because the caster gets stronger, doesn't really make sense.
There is only so much a 3rd level spell can do, and only so much a 5th level spell can it shouldn't depend on the caster, at least not so much.
Damn. I'm out of ideas...
Since metamagic feats raise the spell level, it should make the resulting metaspell something equivalent (on the weak side) to another spell of the new level. Higher level spells aren't simply more powerful. They're more everything. (Compare flaming hands and fireball. More range, more area, more damage/higher cap, +2 spell levels.)
In any case, if you want to redo the metamagic system, you have two basic options:
- Accept the way spell levels work and design a system that works with them
- Redo the magic system as well
I don't quite think any of those three ideas do either.
I was working on a metamagic wizard archetype the other day; is this helpful? :/
Thanks for the link, just answered over there.
