Giant Vermin


Rules Questions


You turn a number of normal-sized centipedes, scorpions, or spiders into their giant counterparts.

Does this mean that the Vermin (say Scarlet Spider) becomes Giant (So increasing by 2 size categories) to become Medium, or does it just gain the Giant Template to make it into a Small sized spider?

Thanks for reading this and I hope someone could help me out.


Targetted vermin use the Bestiary entries for: Giant Centipede, Giant Scorpion, and Giant Spider.


Ah right, thanks :)

Grand Lodge

I wonder how this works with vermin familiars and vermin animal companions?


I don't think it does. As a house rule, perhaps the spell could replicate Animal Growth.

Grand Lodge

Well, "a number" could be one, and say, a spider familiar or spider animal companion is still a spider, and is treated as such for spells and abilities.


Would this spell have ny effect on vermin with a Giant subtype already? Such as a Giant Black Widow?

Grand Lodge

There is no Vermin with the Giant subtype.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I wonder how this works with vermin familiars and vermin animal companions?

They're magical beasts, so I don't think it works on them. Might be cool to have it work anyway though.

Grand Lodge

MrSin wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I wonder how this works with vermin familiars and vermin animal companions?
They're magical beasts, so I don't think it works on them. Might be cool to have it work anyway though.

Vermin familiars and Vermin animal companions, still count as Vermin, for the purposes of what the master(Druid/Wizard/etc.) can cast upon them.


I misspoke. My bad. I was talking about Large Vermin, such as the Giant Black Widow. Would that spell do anything to them?


Seraph Stormborn wrote:
I misspoke. My bad. I was talking about Large Vermin, such as the Giant Black Widow. Would that spell do anything to them?
Quote:
You turn a number of normal-sized centipedes, scorpions, or spiders into their giant counterparts

Spell only works on normal-sized creatures.

The Exchange

So based on the below quote by blackbloodtroll, I wanted to confirm that you can cast "Giant Vermin" on your familiar. I have a Green Sting Scorpion familiar and as long as we can cast this on our familiar, I also had a couple questions specific to this type of scorpion:

1. The spell states, "You turn a number of normal-sized centipedes, scorpions, or spiders into their giant counterparts." So there are multiple larger types of scorpions out there, so how would I increase it's size based on the spells effects? Would I just use the stats for the Giant Scorpion found here?: http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/scorpion.html

2. The spell also states, "Orders to attack a certain creature when it appears or guard against a particular occurrence are too complex for the vermin to understand." Since the vermin we are casting our spell on is our familiar, does this override the ability and allow us to direct our now giant familiar to attack specific targets? My character is a witch, so I know the primary purpose of my familiar is to store my spells, but if it is necessary, I would want to try and have it attack something to save my life and having it giant provides it with a much better chance to survive.

Quote for Black Blood Troll: Vermin familiars and Vermin animal companions, still count as Vermin, for the purposes of what the master(Druid/Wizard/etc.) can cast upon them.


BBT, where does it say that vermin familiars still count as vermin for spell purposes? AFAIK, familiars typically don't count as animals, only magical beasts (so for example you couldn't cast Animal Growth on a familiar.)

Unless there's a specific exception somewhere, I would think you can't target a vermin familiar with this spell. A vermin animal companion, however, should still count as vermin and should be a legal target.


But a Green-sting scorpion is not a "normal-sized" scorpion. It is a tiny "Giant Scorpion"


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But what is considered normal in a fantasy setting? Aren't green-sting scorpions normally the size of small dogs?


Green Sting scorpions are found in the Bestiary under "Scorpion, Giant".

The Exchange

So what do they mean by "normal-sized". Isn't the NORMAL size of a green sting scorpion TINY? I don't think they are considered a tiny "Giant Scorpion", because under the Giant Scorpion description, it specifically states, "Other species of scorpions exist as well, some smaller but most quite a bit larger and favoring different terrains, such as forests, plains, or even underground." Then under this it lists the green sting scorpion as one of the other species found in galorian.

In regards to them being compared to a similar size of a small dog, I would think they would be much smaller than a dog. On the New Familiars description in regards to sizes, it states, "Small-sized familiars are also harder to keep on a master's person than Tiny or smaller familiars. Often they require some form of magic item, like a bag of holding, for such a feat to work." Based on this Tiny familiars are easily kept on it's master, I for one use the familiar satchel to keep my scorpion in. Plus in the green sting's description it says it's pincers are too small to affect anything but insects. So I would say they are much smaller than a dog.

And can someone point out where you can't cast spells on your familiar?

Brf wrote:
But a Green-sting scorpion is not a "normal-sized" scorpion. It is a tiny "Giant Scorpion"


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Sorry, I meant small dog as in "purse chihuahua" not, Small dog, per the Bestiary entry.

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