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Have a CHA-based paladin in my game, and this came up.
Bestow grace:
Targets: one good creature touched
With this spell you can bestow your divine grace on another good creature for a short amount of time, infusing that creature with a portion of your holy virtue. When you touch the subject, you grant that creature a sacred bonus to its saving throws equal to its Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
Full spell description here.
Paladin's Divine Grace ability:
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all Saving Throws.
It appears that the bonus to STs from Divine Grace is untyped, whilst Bestow Grace's bonus is sacred...so...they stack? A Paladin who casts BG on himself gets *twice* his CHA bonus on all his saving throws? Am I reading something wrong here?
It says in the spell description:
[...] you can bestow your divine grace on another good creature [...]
So, no, you cannnot use it on yourself to double the bonusses.
Ruyan.
you can bestow your divine grace on another good creature for a short amount of time, infusing that creature with a portion of your holy virtue.
I'm not going to act like I know the actual rule here, but RAI this is definitely not something you can give to yourself... you've already got it.
It says in the spell description:
[...] you can bestow your divine grace on another good creature [...]So, no, you cannnot use it on yourself to double the bonusses.
Ruyan.
I note however that it says "targets: one good creature touched", which is how he's trying to sell the idea that it's legal.
If it only targets "another" you can always invest in a wand, and cast it on yourself that way...
Design Manager
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"With this spell you can bestow your divine grace on another good creature for a short amount of time,"
I would make the argument that benefits from the same source do not stack (no double haste, no double heroism, etc.), and while the paladin appears to be a legal target for this spell, since he's already benefiting from divine grace the spell would not stack.
RAI, no.
RAW, yes.
A creature touched could be yourself, and a sacred bonus would stack with the untyped bonus of the class ability.
But then text trumps table. So, no, you can't cast it on yourself...even with a wand.
However~! Two paladins could cast the spell on ONE ANOTHER, that's totally legal, or the UMD theif could borrow your wand and use it on you.
Note that it's not the same as your class ability, but similar. The benefits would therefore stack.
==Aelryinth
The problem with Divine Grace is that it is untyped.
A strict reading of the Target line is that you can target yourself with this. Creature Touched can always include yourself unless other wording states otherwise.
Now, the spell's description text does indicate 'another' and that is the one limiting factor that might make it so the spell cannot be cast upon yourself.
As for stacking, it stacks with Divine Grace because Divine Grace is an untyped bonus (it isnt even a charisma bonus) while this spell grants a sacred bonus.
So: IF you cannot cast it upon yourself get a pair of paladins together, have them cast it on each other and enjoy. A potion of this might also work.
Now, with the RAW portion out of the way: As a GM I would houserule that they do not stack. I do not believe the RAI was intending them to stack. Frankly, this might warrant and errata if the Developers did not intend it to stack.
- Gauss
Edit: Damned ninjas!
Two paladins could definitely cast this on each other though.
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So a paladin is not allowed to touch him/herself, but is allowed to touch other good creatures (his mount?)
The way I read that sentence, I thought we were heading into a discussion on the intimate details in the paladins code...
But to answer your question, yes, Bestow Grace must be cast on someone else.
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or the UMD theif could borrow your wand and use it on you.
I have some doubt about that:
you can bestow your divine grace
The rogue hasn't the divine grace feature, so he can't bestow his divine grace to another character.
Bestow Grace is one of those spells that make a lot of assumptions and lack in the description.
or the UMD theif could borrow your wand and use it on you.
I have some doubt about that:
you can bestow your divine graceThe rogue hasn't the divine grace feature, so he can't bestow his divine grace to another character.
Bestow Grace is one of those spells that make a lot of assumptions and lack in the description.
couldnt you emulate this class feature via UMD - Emulate a Class Feature?
otherwise I agree with you.
Since this thread was last active, there was a new ruling saying 'same attribute source doesn't stack'. So you can't get Charisma to saves twice, even if you got another paladin to cast it on you.
my players are argueing, that it isn't a Charisma-Bonus but a unnamed Bonus equal to the Charisma Bonus and therefore not affected by this exceptation I'm not perfectly into this. Could someone point me to this new ruling? Nevertheless it is cheesy monkeyshine. Alas we agreed to play everything exactly after RAW.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I fell for a necrotic thread...
Bestow grace:
Targets: one good creature touchedIt appears that the bonus to STs from Divine Grace is untyped, whilst Bestow Grace's bonus is sacred.
Yes you are a valid target, yes it seems to allow it to stack. One is untyped and one is sacred.
Expect table variance on the:
you can bestow your divine grace on another good creature
I fell for a necrotic thread...
Bestow grace:
Targets: one good creature touchedIt appears that the bonus to STs from Divine Grace is untyped, whilst Bestow Grace's bonus is sacred.
Yes you are a valid target, yes it seems to allow it to stack. One is untyped and one is sacred.
Expect table variance on the:
you can bestow your divine grace on another good creature
There should be absolutely NO table variance on this because the FAQ even calls out the Paladin's charisma bonus to saves: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qe32&page=6?What-is-the-meaning-of-source- in-regards-to#267
Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
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Untyped bonuses do not stack.
Untyped bonuses from different sources do stack. In this case, though, both are of the same source (the charisma modifier) so they do not.
Furthermore, one of the bonuses is a sacred bonus and the other is untyped -- so this is an exact match for the "deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier" case cited above.
If they don't stack, that would raise the question of what happens when the caster does not have the Divine Grace class feature. After all, you cannot share something that you do not have. Even if only a paladin can cast this spell, there are paladin archetypes that swap out Divine Grace.
It looks like, contrary to what I assumed when I posted, these do stack. Untyped attribute bonuses from the same attribute don't stack, but that's not the situation here.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Untyped bonuses do not stack.
Correct, but irrelevant to this thread.
Untyped bonuses from different sources do stack. In this case, though, both are of the same source (the charisma modifier) so they do not.
Correct, but irrelevant to this thread.
raise the question of what happens when the caster does not have the Divine Grace class feature.
Expect Table Variance, as I said above. I'd say you get sacred charisma to saves. Some other GM's will say "you can't share what you don't have."
It's not easy to separate the fluff from the rules text...
"When you touch the subject, you grant that creature a sacred bonus to its saving throws equal to its Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws."
That seems like rules text - it's clearly defined and it means that your own access to Divine Grace is irrelevant - it uses their Charisma bonus, not yours, after all.
"With this spell you can bestow your divine grace on another good creature for a short amount of time, infusing that creature with a portion of your holy virtue."
This seems like fluff text - if we ignore the implications of "your divine grace" then we don't need any special rules for whether Paladins without Divine Grace can cast it or whatever.
But that suggests that the "another good creature" inside that sentence would also be deemed fluff - which would mean a Paladin could cast the spell on herself for ridiculous saving throws.
I suspect this is because the person writing the spell was under the impression that the regular Divine Grace bonus was a Sacred bonus and therefore wouldn't stack.
Hah, at my table we read the line talking about bestowing your Divine Grace to mean that you give it up so someone else can have it!
The interest on this sale is a nice bundle indeed.
What about the Empyreal Knight archetype, which loses Divine Grace, could they grant themselves a limited time use Divine Grace?
It doesn't sound overpowered (since it's granting Divine Grace to someone who doesn't have it, which is what the spell is for in the first place) but...
With this spell you can bestow your divine grace on another good creature for a short amount of time, infusing that creature with a portion of your holy virtue. When you touch the subject, you grant that creature a sacred bonus to its saving throws equal to its Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
For this to work you would basically have to dismiss the entire first sentence as fluff. You would have to take 'another good creature' to include yourself (which would make it legal for all Paladins), and you would have to take 'your divine grace' to not refer to your Divine Grace class feature, since the Empyreal Knight does not have a Divine Grace class feature to share.
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For this to work you would basically have to dismiss the entire first sentence as fluff. You would have to take 'another good creature' to include yourself (which would make it legal for all Paladins), and you would have to take 'your divine grace' to not refer to your Divine Grace class feature, since the Empyreal Knight does not have a Divine Grace class feature to share.
The whole argument in fawor of granting the bonues is based on the decision that some of the text is fluff and what part of the text is fluff.
The decision about what is fluff and what isn't in a class ability, feat, spell and so on is one of the most arbitrary that can be done and often people pushing for the interpretation that something is fluff are only thinking of their benefit, so I am contrary to claiming that something is fluff without Word of God from the Developers.