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So I understand some of the denigration of certain classes and combos due to mechanical issues. (e.g., The MAD Monk and its already paltry powers being nerfed into unplayability.) But there are two things I notice get a lot of hatred, not just on these boards, but across wide swaths of d20/D&D/Pathfinder/etc. fandom: Gnomes and Bards. I'm just curious as to why? I always thought Bard was considered a decent class---not as good as a Cleric or Druid, not as bad as a Rogue or Fighter. Maybe nothing to write home about, but certainly useful and playable. Yet it seems like Bards put a lot of people off.
As for gnomes? I just don't get it at all. I love the little buggers.
A bard works well when combined with another class (bard/barb) or if you really get into your enchantments spells, and buff the dcs.
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I cant say I have the same experience. For every "Bards suck" post I see at least 5 "No way Bards rule!" posts.
I think Gnomes are a little out of place. I mean halflings got the hobbit sneak thief image. Gnomes are like dorf cousins or tinker guys or even fey. They have no solid iconic image. I think that's why most people find it easy to discard them. The hate may spur from not knowing how to play them or not wanting members of a group playing them because they dont know what to expect. They just dont fit. Further angst may be that over the years Gnomes never get the axe despite the seemingly low popularity. I think folks get upset because they want Dragonmen or catfolk races anything more exotic but instead there sits the Gnome.
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All charisma bard with one level of lore oracle, take extra revelation to get the two best revelations for that (Lore Keeper and Side Step Secret), go the rest bard, take noble scion of war, tank the dex and become a spellcasting, buffing, party face knowledgeable machine.
Also: There are respectable dwarves, halflings, but Gnomes are those little things that people put in their lawns. What respectable race let's themselves be put in such a terrible position?
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Haters be hatin', one supposes?
Most everyone in the game community has one thing or another that they loathe with unbridled passion, or at the very least would prefer not be featured in their home campaign. Gnomes tend to fall into that category in my group. We do have one guy that plays them quite often, but I think part of that is because he knows the rest of us don't much like them, and it can make for some interesting RP events [okay, lewd jokes]. Plus, gnome are creepy. Baby hands.
Bards still have a bit of a stigma with us, not because "they suck," but primarily because bards are seemingly cursed in any game that I run. I don't pick on the bards, mind you. They just seem to be the first PC to end up on the ground, bleeding out. Or on the side of a cliff, bleeding out. Or dragged underwater by a crocodile, drowning. Or . . . you get the idea. I'm dedicated to making a bard last in the next game I get to play, however. Gotta break the curse.
I don't mind gnomes, my wife plays them almost exclusively. I've always had a soft spot for Bards, but there's always some other class I'd rather play at the time, so I never get around to statting one up.
Since Pathfinder came onto the scene, I've had an unbridled HATRED for goblins. If I never see another goblin(PC or enemy) in a game again, it'll be too soon.
Gnomes are awful horrible little annoying monstrosities that deserve nothing but ridicule and hatred.
Worst PC race ever!
If Pathfinder was a high school the gnome would be the annoying kid picking his nose and the only one who thinks he's cool is his mom. Plain and simple!
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I actually really like what Pathfinder did with gnomes, incorporating a Fey ancestry with them. I didn't mind gnomes in 3.5, but there just wasn't any real flavor to them. Now the stand out nicely.
I used to be very ambivalent about them, but after seeing my wife play several and have a blast doing so, she's helped me become interested in them a lot more.
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I find it a bit ironic that the monk is kicked a bit in this thread for being "unplayable" while still asking why there's hate for classes that others find unplayable (bard).
In all honesty I can't fathom the hate some elements of the game receive, nor the countless threads that spring up with arguments to either side.
It's only game. Why you hef to be mad?
Bear in mind that I'm not trying to piss on anyone's opinion. Monks, Bards, gnome etc get a bad rep because some people don't like that, and not liking something is fine. Maybe I'm posting in the wrong thread here, but it's tangentially related at least.
I'm playing a bard in our Kingmaker campaign. Having a blast. He's a rather opportunistic halfling obsessed with gold, so performs every chance he gets (that's the best part of being a bard. You can make a ton of money with the Perform skill, more than craft or profession, although he has profession (gambler) too.) As for archetypes, Adam's a court bard, but I'm thinking of multiclassing into cleric of Abadar. So far, everyone's enjoying him, but one of the reasons I played a bard is because most people don't like them or like playing them. When I hear tell that classes are broken, I usually play them and have a blast. Generalist Wizard (fun!), bard (fun!), any other challenges?
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Everyone goes through a "(class)/(race) sucks" phase, I suspect. And not everyone has the same level of tolerance/patience, generally, in life. Just sayin'.
(Like Arazni, our usual DM got to play in Kingmaker as a bard. The bard was one of the most interesting characters we had in the campaign, and not just because of roleplay--the dude effectively used his performances and magic to shape the world around him and carve out a kingdom for his kin. It was actually kinda awesome to watch.)
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Gnomes are great...
...in a light curry sauce
-TimD
Yeah, were pretty bad assed. Haters gonna hate.
Wasn't one of the first complaints about 4E that the gnome was no longer a PC race?
Even then, it didn't last long. Gnomes became a PC race in Players Handbook 2, which came out less than a year after the launch of the game.
There are strong netative feelings towards bards because of 1. Flavor and 2. Ballance through editions. At least those are the big ones.
1. Some people hate the idea of someone playing an instrument in combat. Its silly. They ignore the fact that bards no longer even need to have an instrument.
2. They think of 3rd ed bards and not Pathfinder bards. Pathfinder bards are significantly more powerful. They can now do things while using bardic performance. In 3.0 and 3.5, that flaw made them very boring.
As for Gnomes, it is largely a flavor thing. Associations with the silly dragonlance tech gnomes that many people don't feel fit the setting. Gnomes tend to have a very annoying reputation, and so players often play them very annoyingly.
2. They think of 3rd ed bards and not Pathfinder bards. Pathfinder bards are significantly more powerful. They can now do things while using bardic performance. In 3.0 and 3.5, that flaw made them very boring.
3.x bards weren't all *that* gimped -- I know, I played several of them.
They could start a Bardic Music ability such as Inspire Courage with a standard action, then have it last for a number of rounds after they stopped performing (Inspire Courage, for example, "coasted" for 5 additional rounds in 3.5). They could elect to continue performing, but that would preclude them from casting spells or activate magic items (though they could certainly use weapons or do other things while performing). Of the "core" uses of bardic music in 3.5, I believe that only fascinate required continued concentration (i.e., a standard action each round).
In addition there was a feat in a splatbook that let a song's effects continue even longer.
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I find it a bit ironic that the monk is kicked a bit in this thread for being "unplayable" while still asking why there's hate for classes that others find unplayable (bard).
But that's my point. I understand why people take issue with classes like Monks and Samurais and even Fighters, because whenever you see class tiers they're usually bottom rung. (Second-to-bottom if you include NPC classes.) Mechanical complaints I get.
I just didn't get why hate on a class that, while not quite the munchkin's delight a wizard would be, is still considered decently powerful. I guess I see some of it now.
Still don't quite the gnome hate. Seems like the most often response I get is less "This is why Gnomes tend to be disliked" and more "Gnomes are the worst! They suck so bad!" Just seems like I see more gnome hatred than anything else. (Although Elves are a somewhat distant second, it's actually justified by the haters as being a certain amount of Hype-Backlash. It's a sort of Mary Sue reaction.)
Next char: gnomish monk/bard.
If your game has a lot of interaction, social checks, politics, bards are extremely powerful. I played a high charisma high diplomacy war mage once, and I was a one-trick pony compared to a bard.
It was a pretty good trick though. No one else in the party even bothered to make the diplomacy checks.
Some characters, you don't want to half-as* a focus, you want to be so good at something, it almost doesn't matter what you roll for that one thing. Beyond being good, to that one thing becoming effortless.
Bards have the skills to become absolute social masters, and the spells to back them up if they fail or need to do things quickly. Bards rock.
I don't mind gnomes, my wife plays them almost exclusively. I've always had a soft spot for Bards, but there's always some other class I'd rather play at the time, so I never get around to statting one up.
Since Pathfinder came onto the scene, I've had an unbridled HATRED for goblins. If I never see another goblin(PC or enemy) in a game again, it'll be too soon.
It's been over a year, but if I had to guess ... must be the goblin alchemist that's earning your hate. ;-)
So I understand some of the denigration of certain classes and combos due to mechanical issues. (e.g., The MAD Monk and its already paltry powers being nerfed into unplayability.) But there are two things I notice get a lot of hatred, not just on these boards, but across wide swaths of d20/D&D/Pathfinder/etc. fandom: Gnomes and Bards. I'm just curious as to why? I always thought Bard was considered a decent class---not as good as a Cleric or Druid, not as bad as a Rogue or Fighter. Maybe nothing to write home about, but certainly useful and playable. Yet it seems like Bards put a lot of people off.
As for gnomes? I just don't get it at all. I love the little buggers.
Bards? I don't see bards get picked on. I need a good debate though so if you have a link post it here. :)
I like bards.
Jerry what exactly is wrong with the bard? It is almost always contributing to the party, and depending on the build it won't suffer for spotlight time.
It's been over a year, but if I had to guess ... must be the goblin alchemist that's earning your hate. ;-)I don't mind gnomes, my wife plays them almost exclusively. I've always had a soft spot for Bards, but there's always some other class I'd rather play at the time, so I never get around to statting one up.
Since Pathfinder came onto the scene, I've had an unbridled HATRED for goblins. If I never see another goblin(PC or enemy) in a game again, it'll be too soon.
Nah, not entirely. The player played that character well, and I'm not going to hate on someone else's creative expression over personal tastes.
It's a small combination of that, and everything else goblin related to that player, other games, and how they're the new cool thing in PF that just kind of irks me. I've really never seen goblins as anything but cannon fodder in my games before.
It's like someone took the potential annoyingness of a gnome, and mutated it into something much more horrid. I think my hate for goblins is what makes me not mind gnomes nearly as much.
The "contributions" of the bard--buffs, the +1s here and there--are piddly to a lot of people. I personally like a non-combatant bard, who focuses on the knowledge/social side of things.
But I know a lot of gamers who won't play a bard because there's no way to min-max him into combat godhood like there is for fighters and barbarians. He generally lacks the hit points to be a proper combat healer like the cleric. And he doesn't get enough damaging spells to make him a combat mage.
The phrase "bards suck" is the iconic reaction of combat-oriented players who are looking for Rambo the Lutist.
I was speaking for the great unwashed when I posted earlier. :)
But what I said in the second half of my post is true; I would love to elevate the bard to something close to the image of Cymric legend. Shapeshifting, glamours, enchantments... all with a poesy/song focus. Like the druid with bardic song and knowledge. Or the current bard with druidic shapeshift and spells.
The Rambos might still not like him, but he'd be closer to the true bard, IMHO.
I used to think bards sucked also until I had a player buffing the party, and making things a lot easier for them.
I guess if someone wants to shine in combat then the bard is not the way to go.
So I understand some of the denigration of certain classes and combos due to mechanical issues. (e.g., The MAD Monk and its already paltry powers being nerfed into unplayability.) But there are two things I notice get a lot of hatred, not just on these boards, but across wide swaths of d20/D&D/Pathfinder/etc. fandom: Gnomes and Bards. I'm just curious as to why? I always thought Bard was considered a decent class---not as good as a Cleric or Druid, not as bad as a Rogue or Fighter. Maybe nothing to write home about, but certainly useful and playable. Yet it seems like Bards put a lot of people off.
As for gnomes? I just don't get it at all. I love the little buggers.
Bards? I don't see bards get picked on. I need a good debate though so if you have a link post it here. :)
I like bards.
It's a small combination of that, and everything else goblin related to that player, other games, and how they're the new cool thing in PF that just kind of irks me. I've really never seen goblins as anything but cannon fodder in my games before.
I know a lot of people are that way with kobolds, which causes issues for me because I love them. I even fixed up their stats and elevated them to a full-PC race in my homebrew setting, and gave them a solid place in world history, rather than making them just another batch of low-level sword-fodder critters.
I love Gnomes, what's not to like about Gnomes? Intelligent, mischievous, prankster Gnomes. Yeah! It's just another race, I guess some people don't like them because they're not "tough" or "cool" enough, unlike a race like a Tiefling or Dhampir.
Bard are fun to play and they're definitely playable, but we have to be realistic here, they're still one of the weakest classes. At low levels, I'd rather have a martial PC, and at high levels I'd rather have a Wizard or Cleric (better spell progression). The Bards I've seen are kind of squishy too. But yeah, they're fun and playable, especially in a campaign with a lot of roleplaying, investigation, and intrigue.
It's funny that this thread comes up, because I just played my Gnome Bard last week. My brother also just made a Gnome Alchemist. :)
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Roflmao @ bard hate. My CoCT bard ended the campaign at 14 doing something like +20/+20/+15 for 1d6+24/15-20 -ish. Could out-talk the talkers, out-knowledge the scholars, out-scout the scouts, out-fight half of the party, heal in a pinch, and constantly give everybody +6 to hit, +5 to damage, +2 to saves, +1 to AC, an extra attack, and a bunch of other "piddly" bonuses. That bard made me want to play a bard every character ever. For a bard, there just isn't ever a situation in which you aren't useful.
It kinda makes you wonder how much of our reserved dislike for certain races/classes/etc is based on how bad DM's presented them to us, and not how those same races/classes/etc actually are...
It kinda makes you wonder how much of our reserved dislike for certain races/classes/etc is based on how bad DM's presented them to us, and not how those same races/classes/etc actually are...
Well, to be fair, a lot of gnome hate comes from Dragonlance, not just individual GMs.
WotC was the first on the gnome-hate bandwagon. :D
Not true. Dark Sun was released in 1991, well before WotC bought TSR. One reason I used to enjoy playing Dark Sun was because the gnome genocide had already take place.
-TimD
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Nah, not entirely. The player played that character well, and I'm not going to hate on someone else's creative expression over personal tastes.
It's a small combination of that, and everything else goblin related to that player, other games, and how they're the new cool thing in PF that just kind of irks me. I've really never seen goblins as anything but cannon fodder in my games before.
It's like someone took the potential annoyingness of a gnome, and mutated it into something much more horrid. I think my hate for goblins is what makes me not mind gnomes nearly as much.
Sounds like the Pathfinder Goblin is the new Dragonlance Kender.
EDIT: or Dragonlance Gnome, as I read through the rest of the thread.
Pretty much. If people are into them, then hey. Whatever. I can be just as into not playing in their game and going elsewhere.
