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A hopeful request...


Pathfinder Tales


Okay I will try and make this as respectful as possible, I doubt this will reach the eyes of the right folks. I will start with praise to the portrayal of strong independent female characters in the books, they are inspirational and media in general needs more of these portrayals. But I am a gay male and I would love to have a fantasy hero who is also a gay male, I'm talking the central hero who isn't effeminate and stereotypical but a gay male. I realize you guys may have to play it safe with your characters with a relatively new fiction line, but I hope someday to see such a central hero figure in fantasy fiction. I remain hopeful this may happen one day.
P.S. Please don't use this thread as a political platform or a place to comment on homosexuality, it just isn't the place. Disagreement with my request is fine but please no more than that.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I think that Paizo let's the authors pitch a number of stories, and then picks one... so it would be up to the authors to pitch a story that way. I wouldn't rule it out with the number of different lifestyles in Paizo products, and the recent proliferation in geek culture (especially comics) latly...

Taldor

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber

Check out Jim Zub's comments about the PF comics and gay characters.

Paizo Employee Managing Editor

Hey Minis!

I agree completely, and we definitely have--and will continue to have--GLBTetc. characters in Pathfinder fiction! My favorite character in Tim Pratt's new book City of the Fallen Sky (now available!) is a gay man who's certainly not effeminate. Similarly, without giving too many spoilers, the sequel to Death's Heretic (which is currently in writing--no release date yet) will prominently feature a gay couple who can best be described as "Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, if the two were married." And as folks have mentioned, at least one of the iconics is gay... one of these days we'll probably get around to revealing who.

So stay tuned!


Thanks Mr. Sutter for the response. I actually have City of the Fallen Sky beside me unread as I have a very large pileup of books to get through. But I very much look forward to reading it. And as I subscribe to all the pathfinder lines I look forward to seeing the comic line and your sequel to Deaths Heretic.

Contributor

Minis--

James is being too modest. You'd also likely enjoy the Kingmaker AP fiction "Prodigal Sons" which he conceived, edited, and also wrote the first chapter. He also had me write the fourth chapter, but the two main protagonists, Ollix and Phargas, are James' creation.

Paizo Employee Managing Editor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

Minis--

James is being too modest. You'd also likely enjoy the Kingmaker AP fiction "Prodigal Sons" which he conceived, edited, and also wrote the first chapter. He also had me write the fourth chapter, but the two main protagonists, Ollix and Phargas, are James' creation.

Kevin's right--I had completely forgotten about that one, though the sexuality of the gay character admittedly doesn't play a huge role in the story. Still, in my mind, GLBT characters where their GLBT status isn't a hugely significant part of their character/story is often even better than if the sexuality is the focus.

Taldor

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber

James, thinking about Pathfinder Tales and issues of representation. Do the novels pass the Bechdel Test? I'd not really heard about the test before but I have a sneaking suspicion that only Winter Witch meets the criteria.
Worth thinking about when recruiting writers or planning the line?

Paizo Employee Managing Editor

GeraintElberion wrote:

James, thinking about Pathfinder Tales and issues of representation. Do the novels pass the Bechdel Test? I'd not really heard about the test before but I have a sneaking suspicion that only Winter Witch meets the criteria.

Worth thinking about when recruiting writers or planning the line?

Though we've admittedly had a preponderance of male protagonists in the novels to date--something that's in the process of being remedied, and is much better in the journals and web fiction--I believe that we still have quite a few novels that pass the Bechdel Test. Without going back through them, I'm confident that Winter Witch, Blood of the City, and the Worldwound Gambit all pass. Interestingly enough, despite having a badass female POV character, Plague of Shadows probably *doesn't*, because Elyana's adventuring party is primarily male, and the whole of the plot revolves around saving a cursed dude, which then makes most conversations between Elyana and the next most significant female character primarily about that. (Much like BMI, the Bechdel Test is something that's useful in broad strokes, but not always applicable, and lacks precision.)

Rest assured, though, that we're constantly working to make our books and modules more gender-balanced! (For instance, the as-of-yet-unannounced next book focuses on a female barbarian from the Realm of the Mammoth Lords...)

Paizo Employee Webstore Gninja Minion

2 people marked this as a favorite.
James Sutter wrote:
Rest assured, though, that we're constantly working to make our books and modules more gender-balanced! (For instance, the as-of-yet-unannounced next book focuses on a female barbarian from the Realm of the Mammoth Lords...)

RAWR! ^_^

Paizo Employee Webstore Gninja Minion

Removed an unnecessary post.


Way to go guys. I will look forward to these characters. And like I said keep up the strong females in fiction, they fill an important role!!

Contributor

The Bechdel Test is a useful benchmark, but it has its drawbacks. The main one is that, short of truly contrived eavesdropping, there's no way that a first person narrative with a male narrator can pass, whereas almost any first person story with a female narrator passes unless the story also suffers from the Smurfette Principle. But in general it's good to have everyone represented.


Oops, you smurfed, KAM. :}


Minis, I'm all for this too. But I also want to see this in all forms of media - we're missing a huge swath of character types in all genres and it needs to be remedied.

Don't worry, I'm working on it.

Taldor

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
The Bechdel Test is a useful benchmark, but it has its drawbacks. The main one is that, short of truly contrived eavesdropping, there's no way that a first person narrative with a male narrator can pass, whereas almost any first person story with a female narrator passes unless the story also suffers from the Smurfette Principle. But in general it's good to have everyone represented.

Yep, definitely more of a thing to keep in mind than something to obsess about. Moon springs to mind as a film that fails, and Catcher in the Rye as a novel that would fail... but both are great pieces of art.

But it might be useful when thinking about the line of novels as a whole.

And, James, Blood of the City only passes when we all get to read, not when it is locked away at Paizo HQ in the shielded vault.

Taldor

I gotta say; reading this thread has made me that much more inclined to pick up the Pathfinder Tales.

Cheliax Contributor

Roac wrote:
I gotta say; reading this thread has made me that much more inclined to pick up the Pathfinder Tales.

If you need any further encouragement, I saw some just this morning.

Paizo Employee Managing Editor

We're definitely working on making sure we have strong characters of different genders, races, and sexual orientations... as well as class, nationality, and alignment. :) Obviously, there are a lot of permutations there, and I really try to let the authors tell the stories they want to tell rather than saying "This needs to be in Cheliax with a gay male Tian barbarian and a female Mwangi bard," so the line may sometimes sway in one direction or another, but I definitely plan for the diversity to continue to grow as we publish more and more novels.

Thanks again for everyone's comments!

Taldor

Dave Gross wrote:
Roac wrote:
I gotta say; reading this thread has made me that much more inclined to pick up the Pathfinder Tales.
If you need any further encouragement, I saw some just this morning.

I'll admit that I haven't read anything by you Mr. Gross, but Elaine Cunningham has always been my favorite "Realms" author (even got he to personally sign books for a friend of mine with elven script), but this seems like the perfect way to get to know you as an author. I'll be checking this one out.

Thanks!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Cards, Pawns Subscriber
The Minis Maniac wrote:
But I am a gay male and I would love to have a fantasy hero who is also a gay male, I'm talking the central hero who isn't effeminate and stereotypical but a gay male.

Try the fantasy series by Richard K Morgan. The main character is gay, makes no bones about the fact, and is in no way effeminate.

The Steel Remains is the first book, I forget the name of the series itself.

Silver Crusade

R_Kane wrote:
The Minis Maniac wrote:
But I am a gay male and I would love to have a fantasy hero who is also a gay male, I'm talking the central hero who isn't effeminate and stereotypical but a gay male.

Try the fantasy series by Richard K Morgan. The main character is gay, makes no bones about the fact, and is in no way effeminate.

The Steel Remains is the first book, I forget the name of the series itself.

Cheers for the recommend!

On topic: I'm still holding out for Ezren as our LGBT representative character from the Iconics.

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