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I might be late to the party but WOOO!
GOOD FOR THE GOOD GODS!
Actually a couple of other things:
Non-Divine Good There's often a knee-jerk reaction to give all the Good Aligned abilities to paladins and clerics. What this does is give a moral monopoly to religious characters. As an atheist, and a lover of all things good it'd be nice to see options for non-divine classes to get their good on. Even a Celestial Totem Barbarian is drawing from the divine well in a sense.
Arcane Good: Circles of Protection, Life-Lesson Curses (like turning someone into an anthropomorphic frog until they learn a lesson about sharing)
Warrior Good: Virtue, Courage, Honour, Bravery, Mateship, Resolve, Trust, Trustworthiness. A character who exudes these qualities should be rewarded for it.
Skill Good: Using skills to avoid combat, robbing from the unworthy rich and giving to the poor, representing freedom and liberty and let's get a little superheroic - maintaining a secret identity (because being a good guy can be dangerous in a bad land like Cheliax or Nidal). Let the Scarlet Pimpernels and Blackjacks of the world get their own prestige class!
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I just want to see good options that don't just focus on "evil counters" like "if you take this feat/power/skill you are really good against evil outsiders and other evil forces" stuff, bad doesn't have these limitations and to be fair I'm sure the forces of good have to handle and stop neutral enemies as well that help the forces of evil.
Example would be something like the ark and the covenant it is an artifact of good so powerful it was said to kill all but the most pure and devout that looked upon it give me options that let me do things like that not just play nice. If I'm making say a sorcerer of angelic decent I want him to put the literal fear of god in his enemies not just buff party and shout cheers, I want options that let him turn others into pillars of salt, rain fire on others, and wield swords of holy fire against evil and those that side with it.
On top of that they should have options that make them better in social situations with most common folk as we are talking about fonts of good people who's driving goal is the protection of the people and the betterment of society as a whole, characters like that should just come off as naturally more appealing to people in general and make them more likely to listen to what they have to say. These are characters who appeal to our inner workings to be more then what we are and strive to better yourself and everything around you visa vi if evil is one succumbing to the basest of human instincts then good is one ascending to the highest tier of what is possible and then beyond and the options should represent that. On that note I don't mind if whatever options given have some slightly difficult or challenging requirements to reach them so long as they work is worth the effort.
Also agree with what dudemeister has said above for non-divine classes in that we should find a way to make them good flavored without turning them into paladins or clerics as most people will just play one of those if that's what they were looking for. Find ways to make rogues divine in their own right, give me examples of barbarian azata worship, celestial totems that like that the barbarian is raging, monks who are tempers by the training of archons, druids who meditate on the works of agathians, and above all how the emphryeal lords interact with and percieve the world of golarion and what their involvement is (I mean they have to have some opinions and history with cheliax and nidal at least).
Ways for good outsiders to be patrons and supporters, without having "the solar gates in and destroys all evil onthe continent.". I'm thinking the solution lies in pointing out that good wants to encourage people to grow and become more virtuous and noble, not like evilthatdoesntwant it's toys to grow too powerful and take over or something. Good isn't threatened by other good people being really good.
Ways for good to be inconclict with good. Moral dilemmas. GMing advice how to handle things like that.
Notes on paladins.not just codes, we have those, but how to avoid some of the common pitfalls.
Emphasize that Good is not Stupid.
Also agree with what dudemeister has said above for non-divine classes in that we should find a way to make them good flavored without turning them into paladins or clerics as most people will just play one of those if that's what they were looking for. Find ways to make rogues divine in their own right, give me examples of barbarian azata worship, celestial totems that like that the barbarian is raging, monks who are tempers by the training of archons, druids who meditate on the works of agathians, and above all how the emphryeal lords interact with and percieve the world of golarion and what their involvement is (I mean they have to have some opinions and history with cheliax and nidal at least).
I think that you missed the Dudemeister's point. He's counting Celestial Totem Barbarians as Divine Good, when what he wants is Non-Divine Good. Characters who <gasp> are actually good just because they *want* to be, not because of a connection to the upper planes.
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Good being a cosmic force does throw things for a loop a bit if you want something completely divorced from a divine source(depending on how Good as a cosmic force is defined, as something with a will or something like gravity?) if one's going with the RL definition of atheism that is, or the in-setting one which seems like Planescape's Athar. Personally, I'd figure Good as a cosmic force is something in-setting that people of all stripes can arrive at via different means, some through gods, some through ascetic enlightenment, some through still other means.
Maybe more Philosophies support could help there too, like something more benign than the Kalistrade(and a HELL of a lot more than the Whispering Way or Diabolism)?
There's also those disembodied souls of atheists that just wander the planes whereever they want. A number of those could serve as some sort of support for like-minded and like-alignment-leaning PCs. And there's still plenty of possibilities that can be mined in Good-aligned arcane magic.
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Yep Fredrik, exactly. There's a misconception that the religious have a monopoly on morality. I'd like there to be some non-religious options thrown in to the mix. I'm sure Rahadoum has champions of good that would never so much as utter a prayer before acts of daring do.
Sutter's novel is about a heroic, do-gooding Rahadoumi who despises Pharasma.
So there is definitely a canon source for non-divine Good.
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Y'know, a bit more exploration of what sets Iomedae apart from Aroden could be neat too. As in what pushes her to LG where Aroden wasn't? That could be used as a point about what makes Good good.
IIRC, the only text dedicated to their differences was that Iomedae "is more forward thinking" than the god she once served, along with the implication that she's open to all races equally.* (though Aroden did have non-human priests, like that elf cleric that's still alive...)
*Grrr...Findeledlara...
Maybe more Philosophies support could help there too, like something more benign than the Kalistrade(and a HELL of a lot more than the Whispering Way or Diabolism)?
That's an interesting idea. Which would be more likely to come up with a humanoidist philosophy divorced from a deity: the do-gooders in safe Aroden, or the devil-oppressed Bellflower Network?
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It could grow from both, but having some of Andoran reflect a bit of the more deist Founding Fathers may have some traction that could influence it.
Probably expand it to "sapienceism" too? All too often I've seen humanism translated(read: twisted) into fantasy settings as something more fitting to Warhammer 40k's Imperium of Man, basically turning it into just another "us vs them"/"@#$% everyone that isn't us" dividing point for the HFY! crowd and used as sloppy justification for fantastic racism against non-human races or anything with a divine nature*. But something that boiled down to common decency and stated that "we're all in this together", mortal or immortal, and saw little worth in dividing beings along the lines of race or power.... Maybe people that hold to such a philosophy would be more inclined to view celestials or even gods as equals or just people with varying levels of power, rather than beings to be worshipped or beings to hate simply for their divine nature. Kinda see Ezren thinking along those lines...
*Especially when it winds up having mortals hating on what are basically dead mortals-turned-outsiders... Man what.
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Y'know, some "creepy good" witch hexes and patrons could be really cool as well. There's all sorts of karmic curses one could come up with,
Imagining some eldritch thing that dreams of the Material Plane, and desperately wants to turn its troubled dreams into pleasant ones. So then it fixates on this one potential PC...
Benign heresies amongst Good(or even non-good) faiths could be really cool too. Like that female priestess of Erastil in Seeker of Secrets. Or even worshippers of non-good deities whose heresy is that they either believe their gods are better than they are and act accordingly, or they seek to make their gods better.
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It could grow from both, but having some of Andoran reflect a bit of the more deist Founding Fathers may have some traction that could influence it.
Andoran doesn't have founding fathers.
Founded by General Khastalus
Joins Cheliax under the Even-tongued conquest
Leaves Cheliax in revolt at diabolist House Thrune, influenced by the philosopher Hosetter, Darl Jubannich's On Government and people like Aylsande Benedict.
Its current ruler may be a paladin of Iomedae but the nation was not founded on religious principles and did not have 'founding fathers', they're a real world thing...
Also, Codwin is pretty terrible at his job: has he never visited Darkmoon Vale?
Ways for good outsiders to be patrons and supporters, without having "the solar gates in and destroys all evil onthe continent.".
For those who have read the appendices in Lord of the Rings, that's pretty much exactly what the wizards (Istari) were.
Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and the two "Blue Wizards" who disappeared into the east. They were celestials sent to help mortals. They were forbidden to try to match Sauron power-for-power, and were sent in the forms of old human men so that they could relate better to the ones they were to help. Gandalf's methods were to inspire and support mortals to do for themselves (for which he also had the assistance of Narya, the Red Ring of Fire, to help him 'kindle a fire in the heart').
Saruman, ultimately, is a fallen celestial.
Yep Fredrik, exactly. There's a misconception that the religious have a monopoly on morality. I'd like there to be some non-religious options thrown in to the mix. I'm sure Rahadoum has champions of good that would never so much as utter a prayer before acts of daring do.Sutter's novel is about a heroic, do-gooding Rahadoumi who despises Pharasma.
So there is definitely a canon source for non-divine Good.
Although he did seem to be a cleric of some sort (albeit a cleric with issues).
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Graint, I think Mikaze was saying that the real-world Founding Fathers could be a good inspiration for a non-religious Good tradition in Andoran.
That put it a bit clearer than what I originally said. :) Just something that evokes that general air those guys had.
Thinking about it more, one could play off a lot of the French philosophers from the time of the French Revolution, since Andoran pulls some influence from that as well(with Andoran being the French Revolution gone right, and Galt being The Terror 24/7).
They wouldn't need direct analogues of actual figures, but some inspiration could certainly be pulled from them.
*The Jack Black episodes of Drunk History. YouTube them now and learn how to love again.
Yeah, this is somewhat of an old topic. I'll apologise now if that's a problem, but I do want to put my opinion out there... (Hey, consider it a compliment on how inspiring this topic is...)
First off, a few comments on stuff that's already been mentioned:
1. Alternatives to "Shiny Good." I cannot give enough +1s to this. The beacon of Good, shining paragon and example to all paladin type is not the only way to be good. (A quick aside: I like the Paladin. In fact, flavour wise, it's probably my favourite class. So, not ragging on Paladins.)
2. More options for Good characters. Yes. Especially for non divine characters. Dudemeister's idea of non divine Good abilities is especially interesting. Although I will suggest as a twist on the concept of the "divine" relationship, (quotes because I'm not exactly sure if this comes under divine or "Other") the possibility of a (probably minor) Good outsider (As a side question: Is there a blanket term for these (a la "Fiend" for evil outsiders) that I've missed?) takes an interest in a particularly Good individual. (i.e. not "I am good because I have a link to the divine" but "I have a link to the divine because I am good" if that actually makes sense outside my head)
3. Ways for Good to be subtle. again, yes. kind of ties in to point 1, but applies to just about every class - Good acts are not automatically flashy. In some cases, the "best" good acts may be the ones that aren't fully discovered until some time later.
4. Worship of Dou-Bral.Whoever mentioned this, a thousand times yes. (I can't remember while writing this. I'll edit in credit later) I've occasionally considered this or a similar character in other campaign worlds. (i.e. a character somehow sealed away from the world being revived, not knowing that some horror befell his deity since, and wondering about the funny looks he gets any time it comes up...)
Edit: It was Mikaze. (somehow, I'm not surprised. That I forgot or that it was Mikaze...
and now -drum-roll please- *sound of tin can bouncing down stairs* ...close enough. my own bit.
First off, the distinction between Good alignment and good actions. Probably shouldn't need to be said, but there are some people who consider any evil (or less applicable to the discussion, but worth mentioning, good) act to immediately be a breach of Good(Evil) alignment, splitting every thinking being into a very few shining paragons, a just as few puppy kicking monsters and a large mass of "neutral" individuals of which about 2/3 would by any other standards be classed as Good or Evil. Flawed or atoning characters are generally more interesting to play or play alongside, I think.
Second... hm. Can't think of anything else right now. Guess most of the good (no pun intended) ideas have been come up with... or I'm tired. Probably the ideas that are exhausted, though...
Wow, that was long...
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Graint, I think Mikaze was saying that the real-world Founding Fathers could be a good inspiration for a non-religious Good tradition in Andoran.That put it a bit clearer than what I originally said. :) Just something that evokes that general air those guys had.
Thinking about it more, one could play off a lot of the French philosophers from the time of the French Revolution, since Andoran pulls some influence from that as well(with Andoran being the French Revolution gone right, and Galt being The Terror 24/7).
They wouldn't need direct analogues of actual figures, but some inspiration could certainly be pulled from them.
*The Jack Black episodes of Drunk History. YouTube them now and learn how to love again.
I approve of more Ben Franklin, as long as this is historically accurate, I don't really know much about US history.
4. Worship of Dou-Bral. Whoever mentioned this, a thousand times yes. (I can't remember while writing this. I'll edit in credit later) I've occasionally considered this or a similar character in other campaign worlds. (i.e. a character somehow sealed away from the world being revived, not knowing that some horror befell his deity since, and wondering about the funny looks he gets any time it comes up...)
Edit: It was Mikaze. (somehow, I'm not surprised. That I forgot or that it was Mikaze...
Hell yes!!
Graint, I think Mikaze was saying that the real-world Founding Fathers could be a good inspiration for a non-religious Good tradition in Andoran.That put it a bit clearer than what I originally said. :) Just something that evokes that general air those guys had.
Thinking about it more, one could play off a lot of the French philosophers from the time of the French Revolution, since Andoran pulls some influence from that as well(with Andoran being the French Revolution gone right, and Galt being The Terror 24/7).
They wouldn't need direct analogues of actual figures, but some inspiration could certainly be pulled from them.
*The Jack Black episodes of Drunk History. YouTube them now and learn how to love again.
I've used Alysande Benedict as my Benjamin Franklin analogue. Her work is one of the underpinnings for "The Secret of the Rose and Glove."
Norret Gantier is a huge fan of her work, at least invention-wise.
I approve of more Ben Franklin, as long as this is historically accurate, I don't really know much about US history.Graint, I think Mikaze was saying that the real-world Founding Fathers could be a good inspiration for a non-religious Good tradition in Andoran.That put it a bit clearer than what I originally said. :) Just something that evokes that general air those guys had.
Thinking about it more, one could play off a lot of the French philosophers from the time of the French Revolution, since Andoran pulls some influence from that as well(with Andoran being the French Revolution gone right, and Galt being The Terror 24/7).
They wouldn't need direct analogues of actual figures, but some inspiration could certainly be pulled from them.
*The Jack Black episodes of Drunk History. YouTube them now and learn how to love again.
If you want to approve more of Ben Franklin, read this.