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Grappling rules


Rules Questions


had argument with game group pretty much had fist fight over it, and i only herd bits of it

so the question is is there different variables for the person grappling and the person being grapple?. This is mostly concerning magic and wizards components.

the agreed apon things are

they both get the grappled condition

wizards but beat the concentration check to cast

and thats all is agreed on, the big argument is that is the spell caster controls the grapple it can act normally besides the concentration check.

also the argument is that ruling under grapple page, is confusing cause it list details under the both grappled and pined and there for open to interpretation and confusing.

clarity any one?


This question is a bit confusing because if the wizard is in control of the grapple, he can just release it as a free action and go about his turn.

If you mean can he try to be in control of it and still cast spells? Yes, but, as you say, he still needs to make the concentration check, not use somatic components, and have any spell materials already in hand. If you mean can he move about freely while controlling the grapple and maintaining the grapple condition? No. He must either make a check to move him AND the creature he is grappling or release and move on his own.


Paizo said it streamlined grappling but it's still a confusing set of rules.

Both parties are under the grappled condition.

A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.

As Disco said, if the wizard is the controller in the Grapple then he/she can just drop the grapple at start of turn and cast if desired.


there is also a point were if you control the grapple

-you may do any thing that you may do with one free hand

in point i would think you could get to spell components you would need.
due to the point if you prepare spells, why not have what you need in easy reach like a fighter keeps his sword?

also i believe that you can use somatic components (as long as it just one hand, and to my understanding it never clarified and i throw it to a dm call)

so basically this is what i figured out pleas correct any body if im wrong.

-a wizard controls a grapple. he makes all checks to cast there spell.

he may cast a spell that has two out of three things v,s,m components

i assume he hold components in teeth and uses and somatic with one free hand, or holds material and uses verbal.

this is what makes since if you want to control grapple and cast

-under pined condition

makes all checks necessary but can only uses verbal component.

also this would be the case if he don't control the grapple.


btw i know it makes more sense just to release the grapple then do your wizard thing but that not the point im trying to resolve with group.

and thx for any and all help


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I believe that if the wizard is in control of the grapple he can cast a spell if the spell has no somatic components he can use one free hand to grab and use material components but it assumed that somatic components use both hands unless the spell description reads other wise or he has some kind of ability to one handed casting


Also, keep in mind that if this hypothetical wizard is in control of the grapple, he's likely have to spend a standard action to make a grapple check to maintain the grapple. That'll generally restrict his spellcasting options to quickened or swift-action spells.


1. If the Wizard is grappling a target and wants to maintain that grapple this round that will use up his standard action and he will usually not be able to cast spells in the same round. If he wants to cast he can simply release the grapple and cast with no penalties.

2. If the Wizard wants to cast while being grappled (and has the required action available to do so) he can accomplish this by making a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Material, verbal, or somatic spell components do not come into play when just grappled. Pinned is another story but that is not just grappled.

That’s basically it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Would it provoke an AoO from the grappled person?


cibet44 wrote:

1. If the Wizard is grappling a target and wants to maintain that grapple this round that will use up his standard action and he will usually not be able to cast spells in the same round. If he wants to cast he can simply release the grapple and cast with no penalties.

2. If the Wizard wants to cast while being grappled (and has the required action available to do so) he can accomplish this by making a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Material, verbal, or somatic spell components do not come into play when just grappled. Pinned is another story but that is not just grappled.

That’s basically it.

so basically as long as he is not pined and makes the check he can cast normally?

is this correct to my understanding?


I think so, as long as they beat
DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level.

Somatic components are vague for me too3. I thought they were allowed, but if anyone can PRD me the page why it cannot, I have no problem changing my mind :)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

MacGurcules is right about the action thing so the spell would have to be quickened. You can not cast a spell with somatic component in grapple or pin conditions, and you must have material component in hand but if condition are covered and the DC made then yes you can cast a spell and no there is no AoO from the grappled person as far as I understand.
Oh ...somatic component only need one free hand.


Tao Dragon wrote:

MacGurcules is right about the action thing so the spell would have to be quickened. You can not cast a spell with somatic component in grapple or pin conditions, and you must have material component in hand but if condition are covered and the DC made then yes you can cast a spell and no there is no AoO from the grappled person as far as I understand.

Oh ...somatic component only need one free hand.

that would be logical. now that i think about it you have to hold material components in the other hand. be hard to hold something when you are using both hands for magic hand jive.


Quote:
If You Are Grappled: blah blah - Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.

Emphasis mine. So long as you have one hand free (which in a grappled condition you do) you can cast spells, regardless of somatic components or not (though a concentration check will be required). I'm not aware of any rules that state that you must have two free hands to cast spells of any kind. And classes like the magus very much imply this is not the case, else how do they cast spells while wielding a blade. Or does a wizard need to cast his staff of the archmagi in order to cast his spells?

You only need a single hand free to grab the components out your pouch, and the same hand then casts the ash into the wind, or whatever the exact nature of the casting of the spell requires with the components.

As noted though, if the wizard is the one doing the grappling, and not the one grappled, his standard action will be eaten to maintain the grapple.

Andoran

Just out of curiousity, how did the wizard come to be controlling the grapple in the first place? That hardly seems the sort of thing that one expects a wizard to do.


purely for state of argument, tho one time the wizard did save the party by grappling the ogre mage and given us enough time to heal up and charge in for the win.

it was a luck role he made it was funny as hell.


bbangerter wrote:
Quote:
If You Are Grappled: blah blah - Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell...
Emphasis mine. So long as you have one hand free (which in a grappled condition you do) you can cast spells, regardless of somatic components or not (though a concentration check will be required).

Hey. You're right as far as the rule you're quoting.

And I'm 100% certain that is the RAI, namely that Somatic spells are doable while Grappled (just not Pinned), although any spell (Somatic or not) still provokes a Concentration check whether Grappled or Pinned. OK.

The problem is THIS line in the Magic Chapter, under Concentration:

Quote:
Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.

WELL... That obviously is in conflict with the other section...

Or not conflict per se, but it's certainly VERY VERY strange for the non-Somatic restriction to be repeated in the Pinned Condition but not in the Grappled Condition or Grappling rules (which use Spellcasting as an example of something you can do while grappled).
So basically, I'm 100% certain the above line is Errata, but this issue has been known about FOREVERS and Paizo has yet to issue real Errata... Thus the situation we have, whereby it's COMPLETELY REASONABLE for people to read the rules in the Magic Chapter and conclude that you can't Cast Somatic spells while Grappled, because that's exactly what the rules say (if you look in the right place).


theheadkase wrote:
Would it provoke an AoO from the grappled person?

Nope. From the PRD: "Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity."

If the wizard was the grappler and released the grapple before casting then yes it would assuming the opponent is still in AoO range.


Jabarie wrote:
cibet44 wrote:

1. If the Wizard is grappling a target and wants to maintain that grapple this round that will use up his standard action and he will usually not be able to cast spells in the same round. If he wants to cast he can simply release the grapple and cast with no penalties.

2. If the Wizard wants to cast while being grappled (and has the required action available to do so) he can accomplish this by making a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Material, verbal, or somatic spell components do not come into play when just grappled. Pinned is another story but that is not just grappled.

That’s basically it.

so basically as long as he is not pined and makes the check he can cast normally?

is this correct to my understanding?

Yes.

As long as he makes the concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) he can cast without further hindrance. The concentration check is an abstraction of being able to get a hand free and getting a material component, speaking, everything he needs to do to get the spell off.

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