After purchasing the Pathfinder Beginner Box (PFBB) and playing it a bit, I am completely enamored with it. Also, I have always been interested in the Kingmaker Adventure Path (AP) for it's kingdom development rules, and eventually just bought the Book of the River Nations, for the OGL content.
My question then becomes; can the two be combined for a plausible campaign? My initial thought is, yes. But, I am wondering if more experienced players would agree, and if there is anything I should consider before kicking this off?
Best,
The Bane
It would work. You could get through most of the second book before needing the Core for level 6 and up.
That's just it, and I had forgotten to mention it in my haste to get the original post up, but I don't intend to go past 5th level and this would be a home-brew setting. More of an E6 kind of attempt at it, so no one - NPCs included, would be higher than 5th level. I might dig into Core for some Feats, for progression like E6 does past fifth level, but for the most part the highest you can go is 5th level.
The biggest stumbling block with this is, I believe, the limit on bonuses to the different kingdom management rolls a fifth level player could muster, and how that might limit the actual size of a domain that the characters could build. But I am not sure. Hence the desire for discussion and insight from Kingmaker experienced GMs/Players.
Now, it would be totally acceptable by me, if a character could only build a 'barony' size domain individually due to such limitations. It would then require conquest, and sub lords/ladies to proclaim yourself a Duke/Duchess.
So what kind of limitations am I looking at if I only allow 5th level advancement?
Thanks for the response by the way!
The Bane
Very little of the kingdom roll bonuses actually come from the PC stats after the very beginning of the game, much more come from different buildings in the kingdom from my experience DMing Kingmaker. So long as you adjusted the challenges your characters' kingdom will face to account for an E6(or E5) world the kingdom itself should grow about as well as it would have in a full game. The baron/duke/king title changes are based on the size of the kingdom, not the level of the PCs, so a 5th level PC with a large domain could still be a king(or whatever other title they want).
One thing that would have to be taken into account are the changes in the magic item economy. Most moderate and all major items should have a caster level of higher than 5, and therefore would not be capable of being made in an E5 world. Some buildings will be overpriced without their medium and major magic item slots, so you'll have to look at that and see about modifying them in some way(better stat benefits, more minor magic item slots, reduced price, or all of the above).
I've been very impressed with the Beginner's Box as a tool for short, low-level games and find it to be rather complete in that regard.. I don't see why you couldn't use the Beginner's Box to get the PCs up to the necessary levels and use the online PRD and Bestiary to supplement what you've got to work with.
My huge mistake as a younger player with the world's oldest roleplaying game was to buy the "core books" and lots of campaign materials, and then have no adventures.
With the limited funds my younger self had, I would have said: get the Beginner's Box to get started, use the PRD as much as you were able, buy more adventures/scenarios to take you to level 5, and keep it low-level playing each of the iconics (cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard) in turn before diving into the core books and buying everything you need to go higher.
I hadn't thought about the magic creation conundrum, and THAT is EXACTLY the feedback I was looking for. I did, while doing some research, find out about a Feat: Master Craftsman. I guess, based on how I interpret it, is that a Master Craftsman could have an equivalent of a CL10 (5 skill ranks, 3 skill ranks for class skill, and 2 skill ranks from feat) in a 5th level game. This might allow a few more magic items into the setting. Though I will have to figure out how to mitigate this before I press on, without a major rewrite to the rules...
With regards to Core and the PRD - the thing is, and I appreciate all the responses thus far, I don't want to go past 5th level +feats. I am, slowly, migrating from BEMCI (or Rules Cyclopedia) style D&D to Pathfinder, mostly because it is easier to find players, and PFBB still fits me flavor of the game. I like the grim, gritty, and fatal feel of low level, rules light, play. I like the idea of 5th level King.
With that in mind, I may need to look at slowing down the level progression a bit. I will probably play-test, or experiment, with the standard XP progression before I change that, but right now, the kingdom magic creation rules are my biggest hurdle I believe.
Unless someone can point out something else I might be missing.
Best and thanks for the responses,
The Bane
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I guess, based on how I interpret it, is that a Master Craftsman could have an equivalent of a CL10 (5 skill ranks, 3 skill ranks for class skill, and 2 skill ranks from feat) in a 5th level game.
No it doesn't work like that. The feat only allows you to count actual ranks in craft skills for your caster level. The feat and class bonus don't give ranks, they give bonuses to using the skill.
I guess, based on how I interpret it, is that a Master Craftsman could have an equivalent of a CL10 (5 skill ranks, 3 skill ranks for class skill, and 2 skill ranks from feat) in a 5th level game.No it doesn't work like that. The feat only allows you to count actual ranks in craft skills for your caster level. The feat and class bonus don't give ranks, they give bonuses to using the skill.
So you are saying that I would still have a CL of 5? I guess now that I re-read it, this is for 'professionals', who may not be casters but who took the Craft X Magic Item feats? So that they can use their Skill instead of an actual CL. That, if correct, is disappointing.
Best,
The Bane
"Most moderate and all major items should have a caster level of higher than 5, and therefore would not be capable of being made in an E5 world."
I had thought the same thing, but believe I was mistaken based off of some searching I have done on the PF message boards. Most of my confusion was the Caster Level (CL) listed on magic items, and thinking this was a requirement.
"The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item."
So the DC for crafting an item is based on the Caster Level listed. Check.
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory."
So the requirements section, usually in the form of a spell that must be known, is what bases whether it can be crafted. But, all requirements except the creation feat, can be dropped with a cumulative +5 for each missing requirement... Hmmm, ok. Check.
A common set of feats that are added to E6, are to drop the creation feat requirements to level 6 for feats with requirements higher than level 6. IE; Craft Rings, Staffs, Rods...
With that in mind, I assume that at any level I could try and craft, say, a Ring of Friend Shieldwith a CL of 10, for example. Which has the requirements of: Forge Ring, Shield Other.
I am 6th level, but can't cast Shield Other. So my DC would be 5+ item CL +5 for each missing requirement, or a DC20 (5+10CL+5MissingSpell) Skill Check plus gold cost.
With Aid Another, I could feasible have any Magic Items justified in an E5 PFBB game.
Correct?
Responses are appreciated,
The Bane
I see what you're trying to do but it doesn't make sense to be able to create the ring without someone casting the spell, otherwise, you're just forging a ring.
Think of it another way, by that method you could create any magic ring you wanted, just by adding +5 to the DC.
I see what you're trying to do but it doesn't make sense to be able to create the ring without someone casting the spell, otherwise, you're just forging a ring.
Think of it another way, by that method you could create any magic ring you wanted, just by adding +5 to the DC.
I tend to agree. You would think the spell would be non-negotiable to the crafting, as well as the associated crafting feat, and I am leaning toward that approach.
Though some rings and magic items, I believe (don't have my PF resources available), require more than just a single spell and feat for requirements, so there could be instances of multiple +5s to a DC. But yea, it is still far from perfect.
I was just trying to interpret the RAW since they seem to diverge from the 3.5 rules that I am a little more familiar with.
I suppose my options, if interpreted as above, is to go through all magic items and comparing what items have spell requirements within the E5 spell range, or house-ruling how non-attainable spells could be ritualized.
The ritualization of higher level spells is a double-edged sword for me though. The low magic of E5 appeals to me, which in turn brings me full circle to the question on how to deal with the magic facilities within a King Maker style game that Idilippy mentioned...
Best,
The Bane
The best way to deal with them is probably to go through and reprice the magic item slot creating "buildings" that provide medium and major items and remove the medium and major item slots, leaving only minor. This would also, as a byproduct, remove any of the potential issues with a runaway magic item economy since getting loads of BP through mucking with the magic item economy will be much harder.
As for crafting, in my opinion the beauty of an E6 game is that most items cannot be crafted using the official crafting rules of get feat, pay gold, have custom item. This gives the DM a wealth of quest ideas, which can easily tie in to Kingmaker-style need for exploration. If a player wants an item that can't be crafted with caster levels of 5 or less that is a free pass to make a quest out of it. Say you want a +1 flaming weapon(flaming is CL10), for example: Legends tell of a fire burning in the heart of a nearby dormant volcano that has a mind of its own, and a relentless hate. Though bound to it's mountain home those who brave the fire and thrust a sword of the finest make, adorned with ruby dust and a pint of blood, into the heart of the flames will capture the essence of the flame within their blade and dispel the malevolent intelligent flame for a decade.
There, instant way for PCs to go get some exploring in(probably fully exploring a couple of mountain hexes when trying to find the exact location), face off against a powerful fire elemental or some other fire-based being of your choice(and probably other environmental themed challenges), and get the magic sword they desire. Also, you can put in occasional items that are too powerful for the PCs to craft as treasure with different explanations. Maybe it's a relic from a bygone era, maybe it's an item that was used by a powerful figure of history and has a shadow of that being's greatness in them, or maybe it is of extra-planar origins or made of an exceptionally rare material which gives it it's power.
E6(or E5 in your case) is a great excuse to insert some magic into magical items and their creation, especially in a Kingmaker style game where there will be years in character to accomplish stuff, and occasionally your PC leaders may need a reason to go adventuring other than "we need to go scout some hexes".
<snip>"If a player wants an item that can't be crafted with caster levels of 5 or less that is a free pass to make a quest out of it. Say you want a +1 flaming weapon(flaming is CL10), for example..."<snip>
That is just it, based on my perusal of many forums on the Pathfinder site, the CL10 for Flaming is NOT the Caster Level required to make it, but instead it is the average Caster Level of a Flaming <weapon> if found. So the average CL for any Flaming weapon found will be CL10.
It is said that this CL listing is there for quick reference only for Saves, Magic Resistance vs. Dispel Magic, etc.
It could be crafted by a second level Druid, for example, who had Craft Magic Arms and Armor and the Flame Blade spell with the necessary components, an enhanced sword (Master Work), and sufficient gold, using a DC as low as DC7! (5+ CL or 5+2=7) Granted, the weapon's magical effect, once created, could be easily dispelled and the cost in materials and gold would preclude most 2nd Level Druids I would think.
UPDATE: it does state, "The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item" ~ for the item it would then be a DC15.
What I had mentioned earlier, based on the discussion on the PF forums again and Kradlum's response, was taking the Rules as Written (RAW) - the only un-wavable requirement is the Crafting Feat. So even if the Druid did not have the spell, he would only take a +5 penalty to its creation: DC12 (5+ 2CL +5 for a Missing Spell Component). This seems broken, but it seems to be a common interpretation by many.
UPDATE: it does state, "The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item" ~ for the item would then be a DC20. The requirement to be CL10 does not exist though.
Not that I want to do it this way anyway, because I like low magic settings as I stated, and Flaming weapons would be all over the place if this was the case. But it is an interesting notion to think about.
"The best way to deal with them is probably to go through and reprice the magic item slot creating "buildings" that provide medium and major items and remove the medium and major item slots, leaving only minor. This would also, as a byproduct, remove any of the potential issues with a runaway magic item economy since getting loads of BP through mucking with the magic item economy will be much harder."
I agree though, this is probably my best approach all considering. But I haven't yet GM'd/Played in a King Maker style game so I really have no idea how much to reduce the cost of said building, or even what buildings have Medium/Major item slots right off the top of my head.
Thoughts?
The Bane
Got it, though from the d20pfsrd I am not sure how it goes exactly. Here's the important parts I see:
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
So at minimum, you have a special prerequisite that is either three times the enhancement bonus or, if it has a special ability, the caster level requirement of the special ability.
Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus.
Caster Level for Armor and Shields: The caster level of a magic shield or magic armor with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
From these, I can't think of anything else that I can believe other than the caster levels listed in teh descriptions of the special abilities providing the caster level prerequisite for making and item with those abilities. Still, it's possible I am wrong, I don't deal with a ton of crafting from my players and I know it's an often debated subject.
I agree though, this is probably my best approach all considering. But I haven't yet GM'd/Played in a King Maker style game so I really have no idea how much to reduce the cost of said building, or even what buildings have Medium/Major item slots right off the top of my head.
Thoughts?
I'd say the best bet is to see what other bonuses they provide and compare them to similar bonuses from other buildings. In the end it's not going to be an exact science, but by eyeballing other buildings you should be able to get a good figure on what an appropriate cost will be. The building list is in the second book, but some major ones are Black Markets, which provide both a medium and a major item slot, an Academy, which provides 2 medium slots, and a Magic Shop, which provides 2 medium and 1 major item slot. These would all be overpriced without medium and major item slots, but might otherwise be something you would want, particularly the Academy and Black Market.
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If you want to slow down level advancement, take a look at this: Sean K Reynolds' Step System.
You get part of the benefits for leveling, and each level is divided into three mini-levels. You could could each mini level as a full level, and your E5 game now lasts 15 levels.
"From these, I can't think of anything else that I can believe other than the caster levels listed in teh descriptions of the special abilities providing the caster level prerequisite for making and item with those abilities. Still, it's possible I am wrong, I don't deal with a ton of crafting from my players and I know it's an often debated subject."
Completely with you, but it would seem on first blush that the other part of the document (I'm using the PRD) are at odds with one another. Well, I surely did not intend to debate it, but instead discuss as I am too new to the creation rules to actually debate =) and like you haven't really haven't used the crafting while DMing or even Playing.
"I'd say the best bet is to see what other bonuses they provide and compare them to similar bonuses from other buildings. In the end it's not going to be an exact science, but by eyeballing other buildings you should be able to get a good figure on what an appropriate cost will be. The building list is in the second book, but some major ones are Black Markets, which provide both a medium and a major item slot, an Academy, which provides 2 medium slots, and a Magic Shop, which provides 2 medium and 1 major item slot. These would all be overpriced without medium and major item slots, but might otherwise be something you would want, particularly the Academy and Black Market. "
Yeah, I compared some of the costs last night. With all the other bonuses for each building, it was hard to tell what a Medium or Major Slot was worth. I see their (Academy & Black Market) value even without having all the magic slots though. I was even considering just removing the slots and leaving them priced as they are, except for maybe the Black Market. I think if I really drop the cost on the Black Market, getting bonuses on-the-cheap, it would add more of them to the setting and make it more Gritty feeling.
Maybe I will bounce on out to the King Maker Forum and see if anyone has any idea how many points a Medium or Major Magic Slot is worth...
Thanks for all the feedback thus-far too by the way!
The Bane
Based on the responses I got on the Kingmaker thread, where I asked what the value of Medium and Major Slots would be, HERE, I got this suggestion:
Just a query - why not...instead of reducing BP costs of buildings - have
them produce the BP equivalent of the magic items, instead of the actual
items...?That way, you're not actually messing with the outcome (except for
changing magic items for BP) of purchasing that building.
e.g. purchase of Black market gives you X magic items; or
purchase of Black market gives you X BPThe are a variety of posts in the Kingdom building section of this board
where people have said what BP they think should be used...Cheers, hope you find the answer you're looking for...
From that I went to town searching the forums. I found a thread where people were taking the average GP value for Minor, Medium, and Major magic items out of the Core book, converting that to a BP equivalent, and just saying that a Minor = 1/2BP, Medium = 5BP, and a Major = 20BP. Someone later suggested, and I can't find the thread at the moment, that they were going to use 1BP/5BP/10BP, respectively.
So I got to thinking, scary at times I know, but instead of calling them Item Slots, why couldn't I call them Sales Slots? So that I would have buildings that may have; Low Sales, Medium Sales, or even High Sales of items that are in the Pathfinder Beginner Box Game Master's Guide? No changing or removing slots. No recalculating BPs. If they sell a "Major Item", it was just a banner month on sales of Minor magic items (ones in the PFBB GM Guide) and get 10BP, for example.
If the party wants to know what the items were, I can roll there (PFBB GM Guide) until I hit the GP equivalent and say, this is what was sold, did you buy any of it? Then take the equivalent BP back if they did. Or not let them buy it at all.
So, just trying to be clear, if a building has a Major Item slot, and the Core book says the average GP value of a Major Item is 40,000 GPs, I don't have a single (Not craft-able in the PFBB rules) item sitting there, we have 40,000 GPs worth of items in that building...
Thoughts?
The Bane