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Often, when I see stuff like this, I feel like I'm being oppressed and hated by women.
I am a lesbian. I like sexy women in the same way that I would like to be sexy. There are no men involved in this equation at any point. Does that make me a horrible person? A lot of feminists seem to say yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Sex_Wars
Once you start digging around in the literature you'll find a lot of different brands of feminism from Charlotte Perkins Gilman onwards. Perhaps even earlier than that. There are pro-sex / pro-porn feminists out there, but it can be a big divisive arguement.
Often, when I see stuff like this, I feel like I'm being oppressed and hated by women.
I am a lesbian. I like sexy women in the same way that I would like to be sexy. There are no men involved in this equation at any point. Does that make me a horrible person? A lot of feminists seem to say yes.
Umbral Reaver, I am queer, and I really, really, really like looking at sexy women. I watched all of Spartacus Blood and Sand pretty much just to look at Lucy Lawless topless (I played with my Nintendo DS during other parts to avoid all the gore).
I really don't think this is what this project or similar efforts are about. I did NOT get a sense of "SEXY WIMMIN BAD!" from the project.
What I got a sense of was "why are women often portrayed primarily as victims or helpless in video games?" (Note two of her picture examples are of Princess Peach, who is certainly not scantily clad.)
Or "why is the sexy/scantily clad woman the only type of valued woman we see in many video games?" (Certain exceptions like Zoe from Left4Dead seem to be the exception to prove the rule, but we can hope it's a sign of change.)
Or "why do the women in certain kinds of video game seem to only be portrayed as valuable for their sex appeal to heterosexual men?" (As a queer woman, I take offense to that from both sides of the coin ;) )
I think these are legit concerns for anyone -- gay, straight, man, or woman. I don't think anyone is judging what you or anyone else is attracted to -- just how attractive images are being misused to misrepresent women in a form of popular culture.
My favorite definition of "feminism" is "the revolutionary notion that women are also people." And as people tend to get sexually attracted to each other, you should not be made to feel guilty for that. If any one does, you send'em packing, and give them an extra kick in the rear for DQ, okay?
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I think one of the problems with this issue is that it's easy to go from good intentions to seeming like you're a bit of a zealot. One page I was reading was criticizing the portrayal of women in video games, and I was right there with the author. But then she took a swerve and started criticizing Beyond Good & Evil's Jade for being "too busty". First off, Jade is probably one of the best examples of a non-sexist female protagonist in video games. Secondly, I'm not really sure what fanart they were checking out when they made that criticism, but Jade isn't exactly Lara Croft. I actually played through BG&E:HD recently, and I'll have to say that if Jade is busty, then it wasn't emphasized to the point where it made ANY impression on me.
And I'll agree about the escapism and the fantasy. I'll blatantly admit it, if Tomb Raider 2012 came out and Lara was a fat ugly girl, I'm pretty sure I would lose most of my interest in the game (as well as wondering how she managed to climb thing so well).
As its related in a couple of ways...
I think one of the problems with this issue is that it's easy to go from good intentions to seeming like you're a bit of a zealot. One page I was reading was criticizing the portrayal of women in video games, and I was right there with the author. But then she took a swerve and started criticizing Beyond Good & Evil's Jade for being "too busty". First off, Jade is probably one of the best examples of a non-sexist female protagonist in video games. Secondly, I'm not really sure what fanart they were checking out when they made that criticism, but Jade isn't exactly Lara Croft. I actually played through BG&E:HD recently, and I'll have to say that if Jade is busty, then it wasn't emphasized to the point where it made ANY impression on me.
And I'll agree about the escapism and the fantasy. I'll blatantly admit it, if Tomb Raider 2012 came out and Lara was a fat ugly girl, I'm pretty sure I would lose most of my interest in the game (as well as wondering how she managed to climb thing so well).
The fat bit would loose my interest, but thats because it would break verimalitude for me. But if we had a really hard, athletic and not traditionally beautiful lara croft, more like Luci Romberg than the current model, that might drag me back to the franchise
A bunch of stuff proving why I shouldn't write posts when I'm half-asleep.
Usually, I try to think things out a bit more when saying them. Ha ha ha.
I'm not trying to come off as defeatist. I'm just wondering what kind of outcome is possible. If she educates a subset of consumers to demand a better depiction of women from video game developers, will that create change? I'm no saint: I've played Conan, Onechanbara and X-Blades because of the *ahem* female reward. Of course, the gameplay didn't hold water and I've long traded those games off. I think there will always be a desire to see those kinds of games (the porn industry will always exist). Maybe I think Anita needs to aim a little higher. Video games are a small part of the greater problem: the media and entertainment industry. I think what I'm trying to say is she's focusing on the symptoms and not the disease.
A bunch of stuff proving why I shouldn't write posts when I'm half-asleep.Usually, I try to think things out a bit more when saying them. Ha ha ha.
I'm not trying to come off as defeatist. I'm just wondering what kind of outcome is possible. If she educates a subset consumers to demand a better depiction of women from video game developers, will that create change? I'm no saint: I've played Conan, Onechanbara and X-Blades because of the *ahem* female reward. Of course, the gameplay didn't hold water and I've long traded those games off. I think there will always be a desire to see those kinds of games (the porn industry will always exist). Maybe I think Anita needs to aim a little higher. Video games are a small part of the greater problem: the media and entertainment industry. I think what I'm trying to say is she's focusing on the symptoms and not the disease.
Yes, those games will always exist. But not all games are designed to be porn. And I think these types of discussions will help bring good characters in games that are not trying to be just eyecandy.
Its like saying summer blockbusters shouldn't have good female characters because people like porn. Recent movies like Hunger Games have shown that that isn't entirely true. Unfortunately this is something that lots of people in different entertainment industries need to learn.
A bunch of stuff proving why I shouldn't write posts when I'm half-asleep.Usually, I try to think things out a bit more when saying them. Ha ha ha.
I'm not trying to come off as defeatist. I'm just wondering what kind of outcome is possible. If she educates a subset consumers to demand a better depiction of women from video game developers, will that create change? I'm no saint: I've played Conan, Onechanbara and X-Blades because of the *ahem* female reward. Of course, the gameplay didn't hold water and I've long traded those games off. I think there will always be a desire to see those kinds of games (the porn industry will always exist). Maybe I think Anita needs to aim a little higher. Video games are a small part of the greater problem: the media and entertainment industry. I think what I'm trying to say is she's focusing on the symptoms and not the disease.
First of all, you realize this is actually a sequel to/continuation of a previous project of hers, right? The original Tropes vs Women DID aim toward the media and entertainment industry generally.
I am taking this as a sequel project where, by going narrower at one form of entertainment, she can get a lot more in depth within a smaller area. Sometimes there is great value in narrowing the field to get as much possible on that one small area.
For one woman to take on the whole of the entertainment industry in the same level of depth, more than she's already done, she'd need even more money than she's raised.
But if this is successful and she gets what she wants out of it, she can move on to other aspects of related issues.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree that our expectations for what this project can do are at very different levels. I am much more enthusiastic about it, but I've set my expectations fairly low, to be honest. I just want people to keep talking about it, in part of an effort to encourage change in the industry tiny piece by piece, over time. I don't expect the whole of the video game industry or the entertainment industry to suddenly change overnight because of this, but I find extraordinary value in every single conversation had about this and related issues going back, indeed, to the root of the issue--entertainment marketers' attitudes toward and about women. This project won't by itself tackle all of what is an absolutely huge issue, it's just not capable of it (and so I think we actually agree there, it just doesn't bother me like it does you) -- but I am more than okay with what the project is capable of doing within the scope it's set out to handle.
Note to self: Do not post when half-asleep or without caffiene.
I really wasn't trying to invite a comparison to porn. *sigh*
This was stated before: Video games and movies are an outlet that indulge fantasies. Representations of men and women tend to be skewed in entertainment. In movies and video games, few things are taboo. Outside of those media, many of those activities and gender representations are not socially acceptable or even attainable. I can't feasibly be a criminal like Niko Bellic in GTA and continue to be part of normal society. These media allow a person to live vicariously (I think I could state that better, but I'm epic failing today) through the protagonists.
Maybe I'm looking for a different approach. Maybe I want an alternative answer to this problem. It's not enough to have good characters, but good games. Newer, more gender equitable games have to replace this old system of "bikini b****es with big bazookas" and have to prove that nothing is lost in the transition. You can present all the good characters in the world, but unless the game can be a critical and financial blockbuster, it won't do much good.
I swear I'm not trying to be a grouch...I'm gonna grab a Coke and some corndogs...
Note to self: Do not post when half-asleep or without caffiene.
I really wasn't trying to invite a comparison to porn. *sigh*
This was stated before: Video games and movies are an outlet that indulge fantasies. Representations of men and women tend to be skewed in entertainment. In movies and video games, few things are taboo. Outside of those media, many of those activities and gender representations are not socially acceptable or even attainable. I can't feasibly be a criminal like Niko Bellic in GTA and continue to be part of normal society. These media allow a person to live vicariously (I think I could state that better, but I'm epic failing today) through the protagonists.
Maybe I'm looking for a different approach. Maybe I want an alternative answer to this problem. It's not enough to have good characters, but good games. Newer, more gender equitable games have to replace this old system of "bikini b****es with big bazookas" and have to prove that nothing is lost in the transition. You can present all the good characters in the world, but unless the game can be a critical and financial blockbuster, it won't do much good.
I swear I'm not trying to be a grouch...I'm gonna grab a Coke and some corndogs...
I may have it wrong, but my sense of the Tropes vs Women project is a research/education/communication project. It is not overtly activist--in other words, it isn't aiming directly toward instituting immediate or direct change in the way that someone picketing or performing civil disobedience or holding a boycott is. But one of the values in the project is arming people who DO want to go for a more direct activist approach--which if I am reading you right, is what you are really more interested in--with thorough research and examples with which you can back up your claims and demands.
I am actually hopeful for these types of projects. The AAA industry isn't necessarily paying attention, but a lot of smaller companies are. Discussions like these can help people understand where they are doing things poorly and can improve. I think there is a significant and growing portion of the games industry that knows and wants to capitalize on female gamers. Look at PAX policies for an example. And projects like these give them ideas on how to better do that.
Actually, I'm obsessive-compulsive to such a degree that I'm socially inept. I just like thinking a step or two ahead :)
I am actually hopeful for these types of projects. The AAA industry isn't necessarily paying attention, but a lot of smaller companies are. Discussions like these can help people understand where they are doing things poorly and can improve. I think there is a significant and growing portion of the games industry that knows and wants to capitalize on female gamers. Look at PAX policies for an example. And projects like these give them ideas on how to better do that.
Good call.
And as the smaller indie groups are sitting up and getting more noticed and successful, the AAA companies are paying attention to that (note how EA at E3 was all about "look how 'indie' we are!"). So a change on the smaller scene has potential for eventually inspiring change on the bigger scene as well. But I might be being optimistic about that. I have a bad habit of being hopeful; I keep trying to stop, but it just keeps getting the better of me.
Note to self: Do not post when half-asleep or without caffiene.
I really wasn't trying to invite a comparison to porn. *sigh*
This was stated before: Video games and movies are an outlet that indulge fantasies. Representations of men and women tend to be skewed in entertainment. In movies and video games, few things are taboo. Outside of those media, many of those activities and gender representations are not socially acceptable or even attainable. I can't feasibly be a criminal like Niko Bellic in GTA and continue to be part of normal society. These media allow a person to live vicariously (I think I could state that better, but I'm epic failing today) through the protagonists.
Maybe I'm looking for a different approach. Maybe I want an alternative answer to this problem. It's not enough to have good characters, but good games. Newer, more gender equitable games have to replace this old system of "bikini b****es with big bazookas" and have to prove that nothing is lost in the transition. You can present all the good characters in the world, but unless the game can be a critical and financial blockbuster, it won't do much good.
I swear I'm not trying to be a grouch...I'm gonna grab a Coke and some corndogs...
Representations of heroes in video games is something that is still in its infant stages. I don't think the industry actually knows what its audience wants.
For instance, there were polls after SW Galaxies came out asking about class/race/gender combinations and why you picked what you did. One of the unexpected results was not that a significant portion of guys were playing the female inquisitor, but that one of the common reasons why is because they could more readily identify with the lithe, agile female than the muscelhead jock depiction of the guy. They didn't care if they were male or female. They cared that the guy didn't look like what they wanted. This defied the industry expectations and started some interesting discssions.Annother interesting debate is Fem Shep vs Male Shep. Most of the discussions I have seen on it have been that Fem Shep is more interesting because she isn't what is expected from a special opps soldier, while male shep is just annother master chief clone.
Perhaps real market research will happen now instead of just assuming people do it for the T&A. I don't have hopes for the high budget games though. Like movies, I expect them to keep rehashing the same mistakes until it is staring them in the eyes, and then they are going to start looking at it. I see many smaller firms actually trying to make respectful games in the future though, or being more aware when using a trope.
The Twilight movie had almost no budget because funders didn't think an action-romance movie based off of a female lead would be popular. They weren't expecting it to do well enough to warent a sequel. Instead, they are not only doing the whole series, but it made them start looking at other books targetted at young females to film, and Hunger Games got funding thanks to it. This defies the accepted logic from the 80s.
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While I may not particular care about the cause in question, threatening people who do is just plain unacceptable. I feel ashamed for humanity.
Tsk!
Fem shep adept earthborn sole survivor 4 life!!
Just putting that out there....
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I think what men (such as me) don't understand is that Feminism is not monolithic nor does it speak with one voice. If you are looking for a single message or a leader that speaks for all women you wont find one.
It is not a conspiracy of the Matriarchy to crush men (nor is there a Patriarchy but that is another discussion), its billions of different voices with billions of different messages and goals.
The majority of Feminists are just asking for women to be treated with the same level of respect dignity that most men would like to be treated with.
The unfortunate thing is... the aggressive, the extreme, the demagogues and the radical "all men are rapists" types get more oxygen from the media because fear and conflict sell advertising almost as much as sex does.
Men see what the media highlight go on the defensive and believe that the extreme examples are the core beliefs and true message of the feminist movement. When I feel like I am being attacked I either leave, shut down, or bristle... I establish my defences and carry on about my own concerns and ignore people that are shouting at me.
The biggest failure of the feminist movement is it hasn't engaged men in any meaningful way and taken them with them on the journey to a better farer world. Feminism will always be halfway there until the movement realises there is still 49% of the population with very little to no idea on how to contribute or how to become part of the solution.
My mother was an "Old Skool" radical feminist and a follower Germaine Greer's form of feminism. I can remember being probably 7 or 8 and my mother standing over me and telling me that I "would not be a burden on any woman". I was taught how to look after myself (not a bad thing at all) but I was constantly made to feel ashamed of my gender and to fear women in general... it took me 20 years to sort that s~!! out.
My mother no longer calls herself a feminist she says if she is anything she is an equalitarian... The men in her life (my father, my grandfather and her brother and brother in-law) did not have an easy go of things and she saw there was no such thing as a patriarchal conspiracy.
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My mother was an "Old Skool" radical feminist and a follower Germaine Greer's form of feminism. I can remember being probably 7 or 8 and my mother standing over me and telling me that I "would not be a burden on any woman". I was taught how to look after myself (not a bad thing at all) but I was constantly made to feel ashamed of my gender and to fear women in general... it took me 20 years to sort that s@+* out.
Oh, so very much this!
I didn't get the 'blame' as directly as you did, it was generally aimed at 'Men' (always said with vitriol) but as a male it didn't take long to realise that soon the label would belong to me too.
The women were the disciplinarians in our matriarchal family and jeebus they ruled with an iron fist.
Australian women are 10x tougher than Australian men, they are "well hard". We were only the second country in the world to give women the vote because the Kiwi's called an election earlier.
True that.
Its why I find the foreign debates so... foreign.
You see the stories of discrimination and gender arguments and then you look around and think 'Really?', I suppose we are a fair way along in this country and its hard to accept it could be so different in cultures that are (otherwise) similar to ours. Same-same to the racial debates I suppose.
Lets think about how we looked 12 odd months ago
Prime Minister - Female
State Premier - Female
Lord Mayor of Sydney - Female
Local Mayor - Female
Head of State - Queen Elizabeth
Governor General - Female
State Governor - Female
So on all levels of representation we had unbroken lines of females.
Here's an article about why getting rid of E3 booth babes is a good thing.
Interesting viewpoints, 8 and shifty. Very interesting.
For any who may be wondering why a project like this is necessary (if not sufficient in itself) in order to change industry thinking, I direct you to this press release and thread at EN World announcing the creation of a "revolutionary" RPG (CRPG?) called Genesys. Oy...
True that.
Its why I find the foreign debates so... foreign.
You see the stories of discrimination and gender arguments and then you look around and think 'Really?', I suppose we are a fair way along in this country and its hard to accept it could be so different in cultures that are (otherwise) similar to ours. Same-same to the racial debates I suppose.
Lets think about how we looked 12 odd months ago
Prime Minister - Female
State Premier - Female
Lord Mayor of Sydney - Female
Local Mayor - FemaleHead of State - Queen Elizabeth
Governor General - Female
State Governor - FemaleSo on all levels of representation we had unbroken lines of females.
Women first voted in parliamentary elections in the self governing colony of South Australia in 1894 as soon as Australia became a proper country in 1901 Federal legislation ensured that the right for women to vote was maintained. Where as women in the United States did not get the right to vote (outside some local and state elections) until 1920.
Now race is different and issue and is where Australia was not as progressive as I would have liked. My great grandfather could not vote until 1962 as he was considered fauna (ie a native animal) by the law (average Australians did not consider Aboriginal people to be animals and thought this to be a very stupid law, they did/do have an overly paternalistic attitude which has hampered or made a lot of things worse).
Compared to the status of women in Australia indigenous Australians still have it worse and indigenous Australian women suffer terribly. So having been to places like Moree, wandered through "The Block" seen the Aboriginal on Aboriginal violence in places like Kempsey, I do have to ask myself where should my very limited resources go. To a very commendable but first world problem or to a situation where my first world countrymen are living in Third World conditions.
Yeah I know Kempsey, and cool places like Brewarrina and other such rural delights. Dunno how we are ever going to solve that particular conundrum - race is a division, as is gender, but what we have his is a rural v metro v culture v history v geography v a whole lot of other factors.
Spent my time around Redfern/Waterloo too (Great grandfather established the first boxing school down there at what is now the PCYC in Waterloo for all the bareknuckle tent fighters to train at)
Unfortunately pop-politiking means there won't be a solution, look at the NT intervention for a prime example.
Like the Feminist debate, there is no one group to deal with, but a whole range of smaller indigenous tribes, a lot of whom really hate each other.
We kind of highjacked the thread Shifty. I fully endorse this persons efforts, and I will put a few dollars her way.
On the other hand I encourage people to support Kiva.org as 80% of its loans go to women in 3rd world situations, empowering them to make real changes in thier communities.
Oops.
We didn't hijack it, we just took on a brief sidetrek which still happened to be tenuously linked to the main thread via the feminist issues found in both subjects.
I'd also put a vote up for Kiva, they do some great work and are well worth supporting. I'll give this lady a miss though.
This isn't directly related but I thought given the subject, you guys might be interested .Courtney Pants is a pretty awesome you tuber, producing really silly, but feel good videos about important things such as Unicorns. She is part of The Game Station, and friends with Dodger. However, just recently she started running for king of the web. With that decision, the full horrors of the internet where arrayed against her. Over the last few weeks she has been the subject of repeated acts of cyber bullying for no other reason than being a girl and liking unicorns... There is a day and a half of king of the web left. It would be most becoming of you all to go and vote for her.
High Profile + Internet = Trollbait.
I wonder how Justin Beiber or Rebecca Black feel every time they fire up Youtube.
For instance, there were polls after SW Galaxies came out asking about class/race/gender combinations and why you picked what you did. One of the unexpected results was not that a significant portion of guys were playing the female inquisitor, but that one of the common reasons why is because they could more readily identify with the lithe, agile female than the muscelhead jock depiction of the guy. They didn't care if they were male or female. They cared that the guy didn't look like what they wanted. This defied the industry expectations and started some interesting discssions.
+1 to this. I played through all of NWN as a blue/grey skinned whitehaired female elf monk/paladin because all of the male art looked ridiculous, chesty and overblown. As a 70kg man who isn't a gym junkie I identified much more with the lean female elf, and the male elve's heads were equally unpleasant. I tried playing the overweight version but the animations were off.
As an illustrator and aestheticist, avatars are as interesting to me as gameplay.As a fashionista (read "tragic")I would totally play a game that allowed *real* customizable costume/outfits and gave less quests to bash rats to death. (Nice little vermin, hand me back my designer scabbard...) And I know about 2nd life, but that seems to hold no intrest for me...
My nieces identify with strong female characters (Boadicea, Sif, Scathach, Mulan etc) as introduced to them by their parents through history/culture and myself through same and RPGs/fantasy - I must here champion Jane and the Dragon as an excellent show for kids of either gender.
My son on the other hand is 16mths old and he thinks our dog is great. Pure bliss. And no stereotypes! ;)
Well thats an interesting point, there's a massive buy in from teenage girls all now wanting to be Katniss Everdeen from Hunger Games, and she was certainly very conservatively presented and actually not a bad rolemodel. Here's hoping more young girls buy into being Katniss, and less buy into being Snooki.
High Profile + Internet = Trollbait.
I wonder how Justin Beiber or Rebecca Black feel every time they fire up Youtube.
If it was just trolling, I'd be fine with it. Bieber gets trolled because of what he does, rebecca black gets it because of the vanity of her self and her parents in the creation of that song.
Courtney Pants is mostly(though not entirely) getting this for being female from what I have seen.
I think you'd find it is the same trolls saying the same stuff. Courtney has put herself out there (albeit on a lower scale than the other pair mentioned) and they have come to feed.
Beiber and Black are just two high profile examples, there are no doubt hundreds more examples at the click of a few buttons - they aren't attacking her for being a girl imo, they just channel their attacks down that path as its lowest common denominator insult stuff. If it was a guy he'd be labelled (like Beiber) as either being a girl, gay, etc and then they'd insert some imaginary horrible fate theyd have in store for him and attack all his fans.
Simply put the Trolls dont hate because someone is black, white, male or female, they just hate the fact the person is breathing. Thats the true horror of all this; the unrestrained and unfettered attack on another human being just for the lulz. What a bunch of damaged units.
Just wow.
Ha talk about coincidence Utopia Girls: How women won the vote is showing on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation right now 110 years to the day that Australian women won the vote.
Thanks for pointing out kiva.org, 8th Dwarf. I've never heard of it, and will go check it out. I too often remember to put money toward video games and the like and forget to donate to the stuff that really matters.
I think the way women are treated and regarded in society does vary remarkably from nation to nation. The U.S. is a lot more backward than it likes to think it is... this is where politicians are trying to enforce mandatory vaginal ultrasound for women wanting to take birth control... rrrrrg.
Back toward the original topic, I have a feeling that this video series is largely marketed towards Americans and American game publishers.
Thanks for pointing out kiva.org, 8th Dwarf. I've never heard of it, and will go check it out. I too often remember to put money toward video games and the like and forget to donate to the stuff that really matters.
I think the way women are treated and regarded in society does vary remarkably from nation to nation. The U.S. is a lot more backward than it likes to think it is... this is where politicians are trying to enforce mandatory vaginal ultrasound for women wanting to take birth control... rrrrrg.
Back toward the original topic, I have a feeling that this video series is largely marketed towards Americans and American game publishers.
One of my best friends is having difficulty getting her tubes tied in her state, despite the fact that she is 30 and already has a kid and does not want any more. It's frustrating.
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This is slightly off-topic as it does not directly address the initial post, but in reference to the discussion of feminism and patriarchy a few posts up:
The thing is that there is definitely a patriarchy; it's just not some shadowy cabal maneuvering from the shadows like a comic book villain. Perhaps for those of you blessed enough to live in more enlightened societies, it's not a major problem, but in the United States it most certainly is. Without getting too political, a big part of that is because it's heavily entwined with Christianity, which exerts a far greater influence here than other Western Democracies. (Yes, I'm aware of Christian Feminism, the religious left, The Quakers, and so forth. But they are outliers and a larger religious presence in any American community is the best indicator that it supports antiquated views of gender roles, sexuality, etc.)
Not only does it exist here, but it has its own political party, church, and media empire.
Tangentially related to the initial post: unfortunate, too, that so much of this hate comes from her calling herself a feminist. That's a berserk button to so many backlash minded males in this country who think they're the oppressed gender. It's utterly ridiculous. It's a label that should be worn with pride, by men and women alike. Instead it's become synonymous with a caricature of a hateful shrew that never existed or wielded any political power to discredit a philosophy that should be supported by anybody with a modicum of decency.
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Then, despite the bad name a certain show is giving the term, it might be time to use the term Equalist.
[off-topic]
The U.S. is a lot more backward than it likes to think it is... this is where politicians are trying to enforce mandatory vaginal ultrasound for women wanting to take birth control... rrrrrg.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Legislative decisions that impact only males must be made by people with testicles. Legislative decisions that impact only females must be made by people with ovaries.
Easy-peasy.
Honestly, completely dropping gender roles from child-rearing would solve many of the woes mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately, I see this happening in Europe long before the US accepts it.
[/off-topic]
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I kinda feel like this whole thing misses the point.
Instead of, "why are women portayed in video games as weak, vulnerable, sexual objects?" the question should really be, "why do heterosexual males between the ages of 13 and 35 (be flexible with me here) find weak, vulnerable women to be sexual?"
Historically (and to a large extent currently) these games/media have been developed and consumed larely by this demographic. Therefore, it seems to follow that the content of this media is speaking to some shared aspect of the psychology of this group.
Many, if not most, of the stories we're referring to involve the Hero's Journey. A story that has been told over and over since the oral tradition of storytelling began about a young man leaving his tribe on an important and dangerous journey, guided along the way by an elder male.
The Hero's Journey inspires bravery and confidence. Played out in virtual reality it allows this demographic to live out a fantasy in which they are strong and capable and sure of themselves. It instills feelings of power
The weak, vulnerable, highly sexualized female seems, to me, to fit this. From the perspective of evolutionary psychology women hold the power over reproduction. Being much more invested biologically in the reproductive process women have more invested the selection of a mate.
For a 'young warrior' a weak, vulnerable, attractive female further enhances a sense of power, of being the type of male that a woman would select as a sexual partner. This is played out in the "white knight" or "daring protector" scenario. The warrior swoops in, saves the damsel, and is rewarded for being the brave hero. The desire and affection given provide a sense of assurance, of being okay.
Those are my two (very long) bits. If things are going to change either other demographics need to produce and purchase media to alter the market or we need to raise healthier boys who don't need the warrior fantasy and the attractions of a sexualized female to make them feel like they're worthwhile.
/rant
The thing is that there is definitely a patriarchy; it's just not some shadowy cabal maneuvering from the shadows like a comic book villain. Perhaps for those of you blessed enough to live in more enlightened societies, it's not a major problem, but in the United States it most certainly is. Without getting too political, a big part of that is because it's heavily entwined with Christianity, which exerts a far greater influence here than other Western Democracies. (Yes, I'm aware of Christian Feminism, the religious left, The Quakers, and so forth. But they are outliers and a larger religious presence in any American community is the best indicator that it supports antiquated views of gender roles, sexuality, etc.)Not only does it exist here, but it has its own political party, church, and media empire.
WOO! I'm an outlier!!! And damn proud of it!
Now, I agree that there are a lot of Christian traditions that encourage patriarchal structures. But, for the record, I think the Christian religious left is bigger than perceived--not majority, but not tiny either (Quakers are tiny though, without a doubt. Well, not physically, but I mean as a group. Plus we have a universalist faction where many members do not identify as Christian. But anyway.).
We (collective religious left) just really suck at getting press (seriously, have you seen our press releases? They're terrible). Anybody can shoot an abortion doctor and get a news camera on them, but standing up and saying, "Actually, I just agree with Jesus when he said go and love one another and try to do that" just isn't going to boost ratings or earn ad revenue.
Okay, that's a bit hyperbolic, but there are more people who are Christian and feminist and so on than I think a lot of people realize. It's just that the extremists are really good at getting non-Christians to think that they represent all of Christianity when they really so very don't. I wish I knew their secret. Well, besides going out and shooting people and saying hateful things, 'cause I don't want to do that.
Anyway, I do not disagree there are a large number of socially conservative religious people who use God as a reason to say hurtful things about women, and those people have strong political voices in the United States. But I'm not going by far to say they represent the entire top of the bell curve of Christianity (on the other hand, it's not like I have the statistical numbers to back me up. I'd love to have the resources to do a survey though). That they are the loudest and most listened to in the U.S. is a significant issue. But I think it's too broad a brush to be painting with when getting at the heart of the issue.
I do wonder how more diverse voices could be heard though. That's really something to think about. I have some thoughts but I will keep them to myself as there are certain arguments I am not willing to start right now.
Tangentially related to the initial post: unfortunate, too, that so much of this hate comes from her calling herself a feminist. That's a berserk button to so many backlash minded males in this country who think they're the oppressed gender. It's utterly ridiculous. It's a label that should be worn with pride, by men and women alike. Instead it's become synonymous with a caricature of a hateful shrew that never existed or wielded any political power to discredit a philosophy that should be supported by anybody with a modicum of decency.
For me, it's why I keep using the word feminist -- if it's the other f-word now, I want to use it till it can be reclaimed by the good guys and be a proud thing to say--if it isn't already.
Absolutely there are people who have a knee jerk reaction to the term but that isn't necessarily a reason to stop using it.
Take back the word!
ES there is a difference between a patriarchy and "the patriarchy", if you are willing to start another thread, I would be happy to share my opinions. Just as I have seen matriachies within my family and within my workplace but there is no overarching "Matriarchy".
We should not continue to derail DQs thread. Although if you wish to LEND (you get the money back) small ammounts of money (starting from $25) to women, so they can start their own business and have financial independence please take a look at Kiva.org
I kinda feel like this whole thing misses the point.
Instead of, "why are women portayed in video games as weak, vulnerable, sexual objects?" the question should really be, "why do heterosexual males between the ages of 13 and 35 (be flexible with me here) find weak, vulnerable women to be sexual?"
First of all, do they as a majority? Some do, sure. But I really don't know how many heterosexual males actually think it's a good thing. Some I know do, some don't. If you showed me reliable studies that they did, I'd believe you, I just don't want to make assumptions.
Second of all, should this be relevant when 47% of gamers are female and the average gamer age is 30 years old?
(Source: the Electronic Software Association, who ironically are made up of most of the companies that are often guilty of perpetuating bad tropes: http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf)
Here is an interesting passage from this study relevant to your question:
Women 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30%) than boys age 17 or younger (18%)
So why aren't adult women being better marketed to, hm? After all, I'm pretty sure most economic studies show that the primary money spenders in any household are adult women. They're a damn good source of income.
Oh, yes, of course women are only playing puzzle games and the Sims, so they don't count! No. No, this is not the case (I mean yes, a lot of women play the Sims and puzzle games, but I'm pretty sure a significant number of them also play stuff like Skyrim and WOW). Maybe you won't say that. But just, preemptively saying, don't even go there.
I think maybe the real question to ask is why are video game marketers targeting a demographic (teenage boys) that makes up less than 20% of their total consumer base?
And if the other 40% of men that buy games--do they really like all those helpless women? Most of the best selling games in that report don't include a lot of helpless women actually, I don't think. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Historically (and to a large extent currently) these games/media have been developed and consumed larely by this demographic. Therefore, it seems to follow that the content of this media is speaking to some shared aspect of the psychology of this group.
I think the problem is that the creators of the media are making massively poor assumptions about who is or who might potentially buy their products. Because "this demographic", while significant, aren't the only ones out there, and their pretending nearly half their prospective customers don't exist hurts everyone in the end.
Those are my two (very long) bits. If things are going to change either other demographics need to produce and purchase media to alter the market or we need to raise healthier boys who don't need the warrior fantasy and the attractions of a sexualized female to make them feel like they're worthwhile.
THAT I think you're dead on about. And it's equally true for both genders. We live in a society where people in general are programmed to feel lousy about themselves--for different reasons per gender, usually, but it sparks this exact kind of reactive hatred in the end, in a nasty and cyclical process.
I think it's a particular issue for poor males -- I see the issues the young men have in the city I live in and they have no healthy recourse to anything and no means of self-valuing.
But everybody could use a better method of raising kids to make them see worth in themselves. I don't mean meaningless crap like everybody winning prizes with no real winners of contests, which does nothing but encourage mediocrity and discourage achievers from achieving, but some better methods of providing strong role models and teaching good communication skills and holy hell when did this soapbox get here. Need to shut up now. Thanks for posting.
There was just an article in EGM about the sexism in the video gaming culture, particularly revolving around fighting games.
It's an interesting read.
This isn't the same article, but it's in the same vein.
Then, despite the bad name a certain show is giving the term, it might be time to use the term Equalist.
Egalitarian works too :)
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We live in a society where people in general are programmed to feel lousy about themselves...
Happy people don't buy ridiculous things, so I've heard.
As a young adult male, let me just say I agree with everything DQ posted in responce to Phineas.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Legislative decisions that impact only males must be made by people with testicles. Legislative decisions that impact only females must be made by people with ovaries.
That sounds easy, but I still don't think it would necessary work. Politicians aren't making these decisions based on their own personal beliefs (well, some of them are, but not all) but rather based on what is going to bring out voters. Part of the reason that the political divide in the US is getting so large is that parties are catering to the extreme right or the extreme left because those are the folks who are guaranteed to vote. When it comes to politics, I fully believe that some women would willingly sell out women's rights if it got them elected. The problem isn't so much what gender is in charge but rather the political system in general.