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I can fix the monk with one change.


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew


the monk can be fixed by allowing them to hit using touch ac nothing less nothing more. the one draw back from the monk is IF you hit you do something cool IF........


Damage is not the monk's problem. Many other threads go into great detail on this.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hitting is a big problem for the monk, yes. Using touch Ac is not the answer for three reasons:

1) It wrecks verisimilitude.
2) It would make the monk too good. Their damage output is respectable, remember, so they would go from missing almost every blow to hitting almost every blow. They would be brokenly good rather than brokenly bad.
3) The monk has other issues with other features that this does not address.


not being argumentative but it makes sense. the monk is a master of hitting if you increased the hits you increase the DPR and make the monk special. give him an edge over the unarmed brawler. the gunslinger does the something and his damage is about even and the gunslinger is a high BAB class. just my 2 cents.


the gunslinger last I checked also has chances of his weapon blowing up in his face, his ammo requires gold to make, takes a great deal of work in order to twf with (vestigial arm or something like that'll do it), and the weapon is very expensive to replace.


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1. I think it a bad idea.

2. How would you implement it? All unarmed attacks are touch? Then Unarmed Fighters start blowing things up. A monk ability at 1st? Then Every melee class dips monk. Flurry of Blows? Then it really doesn't help the monk who has mobility and the lack of being able to full attack a lot of the time.

Again I think it a poor idea to begin with, but on top of that it would be hard to implement without allowing other classes to capitalize.


Imagine the Nat Weapon Barb and Alchemists with feral combat training dipped monk with this :P


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

An overlooked leap in power for monks happens at level 11: they can start taking all the "other" Stunning Fist-like feats:

Punishing Kick - fort save or trip
Touch of Serenity - will save or cannot attack/cast spells

All of these can be used on the same attack (or on subsequent attacks in the same round). That is three (counting Stunning Fist too) separate attempts to Save-or-Suck an enemy in a single round. Even with great saves odds are that one will slip through every round.

Note also that the trip (Punishing Kick) applies to things that are hard to trip the traditional way (like at 20-legged spider).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."


Dragonamedrake wrote:

1. I think it a bad idea.

2. How would you implement it? All unarmed attacks are touch? Then Unarmed Fighters start blowing things up. A monk ability at 1st? Then Every melee class dips monk. Flurry of Blows? Then it really doesn't help the monk who has mobility and the lack of being able to full attack a lot of the time.

Again I think it a poor idea to begin with, but on top of that it would be hard to implement without allowing other classes to capitalize.

monks only like old school no dipping. the monk loses the ability if they multi class they can't focus on more than one class at at time.

my main point for the gunslinger is if you want to use the gun in the best possible way you take gunslinger. same with the monk if you want to be the best face puncher you take monk. you can be an unarmed fighter but you shouldn't compare to the monk. a fighter with a gun is still some guy with a gun a gunslinger with a gun gets deeds and grit same principle with the monk. any old jerk face can punch a dude but the monk can "hit" a dude


LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

explain


Lobolusk wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

explain

There are two* awesome things about monks:

* They move quickly & awesomely
* They hit things really quickly

A big bit of the suckyness for monks is they can't do both at once.

The above lets them more a respectable distance and still full attack.

I'd probably tack the movement bonus to the fast movement ability so it's a 3 level dip to get access to it (sounds reasonable, it's a pretty awesome ability, people would still dip for it)

EDIT: Yes I intentionally ignore the other awesome things monks do, like attacking with special conditions, but I think my statement is true enough to stand.


Lobolusk wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

explain

Yes I didn't understand that either.

I assumed the generally accepted fix (although there probably needs to be more than one) was giving the monk full BAB; allowing their attacks to target touch AC does seem overpowered.


Lobolusk wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

explain

Seems pretty straightforward to me: Monks's best attack is their Flurry of Blows, but they can't use that in the same round that they use their high move speed.

If you wanted to give monks an ability to attack touch AC, I'd suggest having it cost Ki points - is it stands, it'd be better than most of what Ki is currently good for.


LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

Very interesting, i would like 1/3 of their speed though.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nicos wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

Very interesting, i would like 1/3 of their speed though.

I think it should scale. To begin with they don't get any additional movement during Flurry of Blows. Then they get the ability to take 5' steps between each Flurry of Blows attack (including the additional ki or haste attacks.

Then they get up to 10' steps between attacks and finally 15' steps between attacks. All limited to half their total movement. this would give them the fast moving, multiple target flavour that a lot of people want.

This should be one of the benefits they receive in exchange for not getting a proper Two Weapon Fighting ability (and qualifying for the feats that have TWF as pre-requisites).

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 8

If they are spending Ki points, touch attacks or a swift action move sound much more reasonable. I'd be against giving either of those for free though.

Looking at the magus' arcane pool ability, which is comparable to Ki pool, if they could apply the brilliant energy special weapon quality to their weapons it would take 4 points and last one minute.

Would it be horribly unbalanced to allow the monk to do something similar for around that cost? Especially if it did function like brilliant energy and not effect undead or constructs?

Perhaps make it last one round per 1/2 monk level.

If they could only pull it off once a day for one round, that would keep other classes from dipping (depending on Wis, feats, etc.).


can't monks already jet choose to move 30 instead of 60? i am super confused?

EDIT: Oh I get it an extra move action as a swift action.

i am down for the touch ac hit dependent on KI or just when making a flurry of blows.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 8

I think Ki would be more fair, but flurry might keep people from dipping, and it would also mean it can't work as a standard action.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Using ki to touch attack is already possible:

Pathfinder Faction Guide, pages 56 to 57 wrote:


Ki Diversity (Combat)
You have trained at the feet of the masters of the Kusari-Gama, a secret society of monk warriors. With their secrets you have mastered new ways to apply your ki.
Prerequisites: Ki pool class feature, Wis 13, Kusari-Gama 25 TPA.
Benefit: You learn how to channel your ki in a new ability. Choose one of the following ki powers:
...skip stuff...
Dim Mak: You may spend 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action to execute your next Stunning Fist attack as a melee touch attack rather than a normal melee attack.
...skip stuff...


Just give the monk full BAB, this gives him awesome CMD and change flurry of blows to TWF at 1/6/11 + double slice.

Create a magical item to affect unarmed strikes but not natural attacks, dragon/monk tattoo (at 2 times weapon equivalent price), this is cheaper and won't use an item slot. Priced like two weapons, which are also slotless so fits better. I see no problem allowing monks to create their own tattoo much like craft weapon and armor, possibly limited access to enhancement equivalent bonus which might differ from archetype to archetype.

Clear up some archetype language to fit the intention.

* optional * Grant the monk ability to burn ki to gain an enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to the number of ki sacrificed for 1 hour, no more than 1 ki point per 4 levels can be used like this. This will allow monks to ignore DR/Magic but no other DR. This is a (Su) ability.

One or more of these will go a long way, the monk isn't in such bad shape as many believe, swapping out some defensive/mystic abilities for more offensive abilities might give people all they want from the monk.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think it would be nice to have a feat that allowed you to pay ki to make a melee attack as a touch attack, or move half-speed as a swift action. Another possibility could be to allow the monk to drop an attack from FoB to take an extra 5' step.


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LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

They can already do this with the expenditure of a ki point -- add 20 feet to their base speed.

But if you're wanting them to be able to move and still be able to do a multi attack) (which isn't clear from the post) what I'd do is just allow you to flurry with the expenditure of a ki point. Or alternately, if you move and attack, allow you to deal damage as if you had Vital Strike. Because ki is a limited resource it wouldn't break things too much, I don't think.


DeathQuaker wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

They can already do this with the expenditure of a ki point -- add 20 feet to their base speed.

No, these are very different things.

His suggestion is that a monk can move a short distance and still Full Attack.

The RAW ability lets a monk move slightly further and make only 1 attack.

Move + full attack =/= Move + one attack


Hello Pathfinders,

LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

It's not a one fix change for a monk, but Stragen's Monk Errata includes an idea similar to this.

Stragen's Monk Errata wrote:
Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to his land speed, as shown on Table 3–10. At 7th level, in addition to his normal Move Action or 5-foot step, a monk can move an extra 5 feet as a swift action without provoking attacks of opportunity. This increases up to an extra 10 feet at 14th level. This swift movement costs 1 ki pool point per 5 feet moved.

Kind Regards,

Stragen


I believe that just treating amulet of mighty fist like a normal weapon would help the monk a lot. And adding weapon training could make them about as powerful as fighters.

EDIT: which is probably too much, since they get a lot of cool stuff

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

I can fix the monk with one charge, too. I just take a permament marker, and write "Monk" over "Ninja"...


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Gorbacz wrote:
I can fix the monk with one charge, too. I just take a permament marker, and write "Monk" over "Ninja"...

Then we do it again and write rogue over it ?


Crysknife wrote:

I believe that just treating amulet of mighty fist like a normal weapon would help the monk a lot. And adding weapon training could make them about as powerful as fighters.

EDIT: which is probably too much, since they get a lot of cool stuff

Amulet for monks should just be about 1.5 times as expensive as a weapon, the equivalent of two weapons with a reduction for it to be a slotted item. I am not taking into account for it to be used by monsters with natural attacks, which I assume will be fine at the old price if you wish to include that but it isn't generally useful for PCs.

3,000 / 12,000 / 27,000 / 48,000 / 75,000 seems fair to me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stragen wrote:

Hello Pathfinders,

LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

It's not a one fix change for a monk, but Stragen's Monk Errata includes an idea similar to this.

Stragen's Monk Errata wrote:
Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to his land speed, as shown on Table 3–10. At 7th level, in addition to his normal Move Action or 5-foot step, a monk can move an extra 5 feet as a swift action without provoking attacks of opportunity. This increases up to an extra 10 feet at 14th level. This swift movement costs 1 ki pool point per 5 feet moved.

Kind Regards,

Stragen

A pretty decent errata - but in this case I think the ki-cost is too prohibitive - where an extra "free" 5foot step is nice it doesn't really cover a lot of ground. I stand by the notion that a "swift action to move half-your-speed" is a sweet spot; something that I'd grant at monk level 5-or-higher. The ability scales itself with increasing monk level, which is good.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crysknife wrote:
I believe that just treating amulet of mighty fist like a normal weapon would help the monk a lot. And adding weapon training could make them about as powerful as fighters.

The designers have made clear that the AoMF isn't changing. It's actually realistically priced, when you consider what it does for monsters with multiple attacks rather than for monks. Problem is that there is nothing then for monks to enhance further.

Stragens ideas are interesting. I have done my own monk re-design as well, and while we have differing ideas as to how things should work, both lead us to monks that are more 'workable'. In my design I went more for options that allow monks to be what the player wants rather than giving the monk a specific theme. One problem the core monk has is that it has too many fixed abilities that do not truly give it a specific working direction, but don't allow enough scope for the player to easily pick their own and excel at it either.


Irontruth wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

They can already do this with the expenditure of a ki point -- add 20 feet to their base speed.

No, these are very different things.

His suggestion is that a monk can move a short distance and still Full Attack.

The RAW ability lets a monk move slightly further and make only 1 attack.

Move + full attack =/= Move + one attack

Please read/quote my whole post next time:

DeathQuaker wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

They can already do this with the expenditure of a ki point -- add 20 feet to their base speed.

But if you're wanting them to be able to move and still be able to do a multi attack (which isn't clear from the post) what I'd do is just allow you to flurry with the expenditure of a ki point. Or alternately, if you move and attack, allow you to deal damage as if you had Vital Strike. Because ki is a limited resource it wouldn't break things too much, I don't think.

I am really, really tired of people talking posts out of context for the purpose of creating an argument where there was in fact common ground.


Lobolusk wrote:
not being argumentative but it makes sense. the monk is a master of hitting if you increased the hits you increase the DPR and make the monk special. give him an edge over the unarmed brawler. the gunslinger does the something and his damage is about even and the gunslinger is a high BAB class. just my 2 cents.

Have you even run the the DPR numbers on this. It is probably about as bas as giving a rogue full BAB. DPR wise it is to much, and the gunslinger has other drawbacks that keep him in check.

Edit:I see someone has mentioned the gunslinger already. :)


Gorbacz wrote:
I can fix the monk with one charge, too. I just take a permament marker, and write "Monk" over "Ninja"...

Nice.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DeathQuaker wrote:


But if you're wanting them to be able to move and still be able to do a multi attack (which isn't clear from the post) what I'd do is just allow you to flurry with the expenditure of a ki point. Or alternately, if you move and attack, allow you to deal damage as if you had Vital Strike. Because ki is a limited resource it wouldn't break things too much, I don't think.

"as a standard action".

I'd argue that because ki is such a limited resource, such a solution is not a suitable fix for the monk's perceived weaknesses. Ki is also the resource to use for a number of other important monk abilities - the suggestion is in fact very good; but it is so good that it becomes a choice limiter.


LoreKeeper wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:


But if you're wanting them to be able to move and still be able to do a multi attack (which isn't clear from the post) what I'd do is just allow you to flurry with the expenditure of a ki point. Or alternately, if you move and attack, allow you to deal damage as if you had Vital Strike. Because ki is a limited resource it wouldn't break things too much, I don't think.

"as a standard action".

Err? If you're saying "flurry as a standard action with the expenditure of a ki point" -- yes, you're right I didn't make that clear. Sorry.

Quote:


I'd argue that because ki is such a limited resource, such a solution is not a suitable fix for the monk's perceived weaknesses. Ki is also the resource to use for a number of other important monk abilities - the suggestion is in fact very good; but it is so good that it becomes a choice limiter.

What I like about it, is that it's something you can easily fit into the framework of the standard monk without changing a lot. It's something I could see being fit into a revision or an archetype within the existing rules. And as the developers seem extremely concerned about making changes that make things overpowered, it's an addition that doesn't break much. So that's the standpoint I'm coming from--how to find fixes within the existing game that we could conceivably see happen.

Many of the other proposed monk fixes are good but are much more drastic; it's unlikely you'd ever see them officially in this iteration of Pathfinder (outside of house rules). Certainly I hope they will be considered for future editions.

Ki isn't so limited that it would make it unable to happen when it's really needed, IMO. Maybe it's just the combats I tend to see run, but normally the players I see are pretty good about once getting into melee, staying in melee to full attack. The need to move and attack itself becomes limited --- but then honestly, I've never seen the single attack with movement be a "problem" as much as many other people. I understand very much why monk players want flurry to be more accessible and to be able to get it off when mobility is an issue--because done right, it is often (though not always) the most effective way the monk can participate in combat. And more to the point, a monk is supposed to be extremely mobile but then has a class feature that requires him to stand still, which is frustratingly contrary. But the whole "if it can't full attack all the time then a class is worthless" attitude is one I really don' get, because I don't see it as a major problem in practice--the trade off of being able to move actually seems a good one based on games I've seen, and I can see things getting heavily broken.

Mind part of my perspective comes from the fact that the last game I ran was high level (14th to 19th level) so what I am picturing is characters at that level being able to always full attack even with movement and I'm imagining a lot of things break, and break hard--especially bearing in mind that if you allowed players to do it, so could enemy NPCs and monsters.

I'm all for letting monks very much in particular find a way to flurry even after movement, but I do think even then it needs to be limited or there is potential for things breaking hard, especially at high levels. Ki pool is an existing mechanic that makes it an easy way to fit in a limitation.

If there isn't enough ki, another quick fix could just be to make the ki pool larger to start with (level plus double Wisdom modifier). Or make Extra Ki one of the monk's bonus feats.


Dabbler wrote:
Crysknife wrote:
I believe that just treating amulet of mighty fist like a normal weapon would help the monk a lot. And adding weapon training could make them about as powerful as fighters.

The designers have made clear that the AoMF isn't changing. It's actually realistically priced, when you consider what it does for monsters with multiple attacks rather than for monks. Problem is that there is nothing then for monks to enhance further.

Think what armor could do to monsters.

Monsters are statted and equipped in accordance to their CR. Take a monster, change its equipment, re-train its feats and you'll have in your hands something barely resembling the starting creature.
Amulet of mighty fists is no different.
It took my GM one near TPK and one actual TPK to understand that.

Still, if you wanted to prevent this problem you may simply make a lesser version for unarmed strikes only.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's been suggested, as has a supplementary item that provides a bonus to hit only and will stack with special properties of the AoMF.

Shadow Lodge

Man, I wish one change would do it. And that Paizo had made it.


wraithstrike wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
not being argumentative but it makes sense. the monk is a master of hitting if you increased the hits you increase the DPR and make the monk special. give him an edge over the unarmed brawler. the gunslinger does the something and his damage is about even and the gunslinger is a high BAB class. just my 2 cents.

Have you even run the the DPR numbers on this. It is probably about as bas as giving a rogue full BAB. DPR wise it is to much, and the gunslinger has other drawbacks that keep him in check.

Edit:I see someone has mentioned the gunslinger already. :)

that was going to be my next suggestion, i think if you "crunch" the numbers not much changes, as for the gunslinger,yes they have some drawbacks buying ammo misfires but by level 5 it is a non issue. ect... but they have a full BAB to make up for it the monk still has the 3/4 bab.


I think if I were to change the monk, I'd just say:

A monk who takes a move action can use their flurry of blows as a standard action. These attacks can take place throughout the move action and be applied to multiple targets.

So, a monk can move all over the place, punching and kicking everything as he moves through.

I'm fairly certain this doesn't overpower the character, given that the monk is still 3/4 BAB with no spells. I'd wager it's a safe bet and will occasionally make the monk look super-badass.


One fix i can think of is to Lower their unarmed damage progression to keep it roughly inline with their monk weapons. Than give them a static bonus to damage across the board for any weapon with the monk weapon quality. Add Punching based weapons to the list of monk weapons. This solves the enchanting of unarmed strikes without haveing to take up your amulet slot.


Marshall Jansen wrote:

I think if I were to change the monk, I'd just say:

A monk who takes a move action can use their flurry of blows as a standard action. These attacks can take place throughout the move action and be applied to multiple targets.

So, a monk can move all over the place, punching and kicking everything as he moves through.

I'm fairly certain this doesn't overpower the character, given that the monk is still 3/4 BAB with no spells. I'd wager it's a safe bet and will occasionally make the monk look super-badass.

Which is basically my feeling, except I would restrict the movement to half the Monk's movement. I also like the idea of gradual improvements that lift it up to this.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
clff rice wrote:
One fix i can think of is to Lower their unarmed damage progression to keep it roughly inline with their monk weapons. Than give them a static bonus to damage across the board for any weapon with the monk weapon quality. Add Punching based weapons to the list of monk weapons. This solves the enchanting of unarmed strikes without haveing to take up your amulet slot.

This is kind of what I did with my monk redesign, only I added a natural enhancement as well, so your unarmed strike is a normal weapon, with weapon training, natural enhancement to +5, amulet of mighty fists adds properties.

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